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[Ferrio]

SF4 links aren't necessary and neither are juggles in MVC3. Well it varies form character to character.

But the exact same thing can be said with Tekken.... You don't *need* to do anything specific in order to win.

 

[DEATH™]

SF4 links aren't necessary and neither are juggles in MVC3. Well it varies form character to character.

The same way juggles aren't that necessary in Tekken. Players can poke/mixup/throw the opponents to death if they wanted to.

What I'm sure is Tekken produces large amount of sodium on every levels. That's the nature of the beast. Maybe that's why....

Not really an apt comparison as there isn't a lot of crossover (of players) between 2D and 3D fighters.

The basic stuff is still there... It's the same mindgames, same goals. Or else Justin Wong won't be that good in tekken despite it not being his main game...

That's what I don't understand too... Why do people are scared trying out 3D fighters? Less flashy?

 

[The One Who Knocks]

I actually generally agree with throws not being terribly useful. But that's true for most fighting games. Only one that ever makes throws dangerous and a core form of attack is VF. In every thing else, it's just an option that's part of your arsenal.

Well, they aren't as useful as combos of course but they can be very effective in setting up you're enemy into a position that you can deal with them more suitably. I was just watching RIP's stream and Alex, as the person that was being used, is a very good example wherein his throw moves the enemy a great distance away from you while switching sides (and of course they can hit off the wall for extra damage). If you're on the defensive for a significant portion of time and are under extreme pressure with regards to blocking, it can be used as a way to remove that pressure. Zafina (in Tekken 6 anyway) is another example where her throw automatically puts you into one of her stances (I don't know the name so I apologise for that but it is the one in which she is close to the ground yet isn't crawling, she's on both her feet and 4,3 is a launcher while in it and 3,4,3+4 is a low, low, mid) which for an unprepared opponent can allow you to use one of the above combos to get a few extra points of damage as they get up or.

Of course, if you mean in terms of damage then absolutely, they aren't very dangerous (and I haven't played Virtua Fighter so I can't compare) but they can be very useful to change the spacing in a match (although against players who have more a significant amount of practice it is, of course, not a viable strategy under any circumstances as most will be able to break them).

 

[DR2K]

The same way juggles aren't that necessary in Tekken. Players can poke/mixup/throw the opponents to death if they wanted to.

What I'm sure is Tekken produces large amount of sodium on every levels. That's the nature of the beast. Maybe that's why....



The basic stuff is still there... It's the same mindgames, same goals. Or else Justin Wong won't be that good in tekken despite it not being his main game...

That's what I don't understand too... Why do people are scared trying out 3D fighters? Less flashy?

I don't think we should be using J.Wong as the litmus test to make a point about transitioning into fighters.

Tekken asks that you learn more to do the same thing. Movement, natural combos, juggles, throw breaks, etc. . . are incredibly difficult coming from a 2D game.

 

[Skilletor]

The basic stuff is still there... It's the same mindgames, same goals. Or else Justin Wong won't be that good in tekken despite it not being his main game...

That's what I don't understand too... Why do people are scared trying out 3D fighters? Less flashy?

Maybe they don't like the movement? Maybe moving on a 2D plane is more comfortable for them? Maybe they don't like the characters. Maybe they just want to stick with what they're used to playing. I could ask the same question of people in general with every fighter. I play everything. I just love fighters.

SF has been around longer than everything else, that's a big reason of why more people play it, imo.

 

[Sayah]

Yes I'm aware, but it's universal in other fighters. This makes it a little more difficult to apply said move, since its use becomes limited.

The only difference between Tekken and any other fighter is that it takes longer to actually get to the depth of the game. Tekken isn't more deep than DOA or VF or SC or Street Fighter or anything else. It's just more obstacles and barriers that don't need to be there.

lolno.

Link

Watch this.

Just go to a big two stream... People think that if it isn't marvel/sf, it's trash...



Tried it in T4... BD is removed, focused on SS movement (which is easier), throws have only 1 input (press ~F to make the grab different).

Honestly, every single idea people think tekken needs, I could point them to T4. Reduced chars, simplified throws, movement, everything... and those changes made T4 not feel tekken. It felt like a VF copycat that didn't really copied VF at all, while sacrificing replayability and fun...



I think this generation is just too spoonfed. Just a little amount of frustration causes rage...

This game IMO captures the spirit of martial arts competitions. The hard training, discipline, mind games, frustration (especially in losses despite working hard) and the glory when you get the win, Tekken completely imitates that. That's what makes this game awesome.



I'll take the slap, and shrug it off...

First, this game is the most newbie-friendly game in the series... Just pick solo and use pokes everytime and you can still win against the pros. There's fight lab, and if you S all of that thing, at least you get the grasp of the whole game. And you don't have to know your opponent well enough to win (I keep emphasizing this to everyone I teach at tekken), what you need is just basic understanding of the game, being able to adapt and read opponents, and have discipline to not mash the attacks.

About character reduction, who's you gonna cut? Cut lars? alisa? wang? baek? Even the obsolete Jun and Kuni were requested back... Again, it's easy for people to say CUT! until their mains are cut. It's okay if this game's like SF where you could pick it up easily, but people spent time and money to learn these chars. Making the roster significantly small takes away the replayability.

About long combos, the point of "you shouldn't whiff/use punishable moves" are legit, because This game teaches you to discipline yourself. Again, same spirit in martial arts training. Be lousy in the ring, and dare to throw that wide swing to show off and you'll end up kissing the mat. Much worse if it's a street fight. And aesthetically speaking, remove these long combos and you'll end up looking boring like VF. Despite being fun, VF is boring to watch.

You said it yourself, TTT2 is fun. Fans need to accept Tekken as it is. A extremely deep fighting game, with large diverse characters and large movelist that allows great mindgames and creativity. If we want a simple fanservice fighter, I'll buy DOA, but as you play more fighting games and get bored/tired of how shallow some games are, go to Tekken...



At this point, a company can't afford to experiment. Parts of the reason arcades closed down was because T4 have so expensive machines but the game itself lacks replayability. Not only it hurt the arcades, it hurt the Tekken IP as well...

^^^^^^
This man has knowledge. Listen to him.

 

[AAK]

All this talk about tekken 7... you guys realize the Tekken team has an insurmountably more difficult task ahead of them involving getting the fundamentals of street fighter gameplay to function in a 3d plane. I think about it in my free time and I shudder wondering what the game designers must be forced to conjure up considering time and budget.

Regardless, I'm open to whatever direction Namco has in store for the franchise... but if is going to be a drastic departure... it will take at least another decade of sequels from there to reach a level of refinement and quality analogous to the road from T5 to TTT2.

 

[Sayah]

SF4 links aren't necessary and neither are juggles in MVC3. Well it varies form character to character.

Juggles aren't necessary in Marvel? What? Maybe at a casual level, they're not necessary.

 

[DR2K]

lolno.

how do you define depth? I define it by the number of options an engine gives the player and its uses. Tell me how Tekken is deeper once you get past the execution level?

Juggles aren't necessary in Marvel? What? Maybe at a casual level, they're not necessary.

Dark Phoenix, Sentinel, Hulk, Wolverine, Nemises aren't as juggle heavy as say Dante, Viper, Zero, etc. . . there's a varying level.

 

[TGMIII]

SF4 links aren't necessary and neither are juggles in MVC3. Well it varies form character to character.

Do you mean it wasn't necessary for capcom to add them into the game or that they're not necessary to use while playing the game? If you're playing the game at any level above basic then you need to use links to maximize damage.

 

[DR2K]

Do you mean it wasn't necessary for capcom to add them into the game or that they're not necessary to use while playing the game? If you're playing the game at any level above basic then you need to use links to maximize damage.

They aren't as necessary for every character to win a the competitive level. see Guile vs Sakura.

 

[Sayah]

how do you define depth? I define it by the number of options an engine gives the player and its uses. Tell me how Tekken is deeper once you get past the execution level?



Dark Phoenix, Sentinel, Hulk, Wolverine, Nemises aren't as juggle heavy as say Dante, Viper, Zero, etc. . . there's a varying level.

Unless your strategy consists of camping in one corner all day by using Modok and whoever else, mostly all characters rely on juggles to dish out damage.

Unless I'm forgetting and misunderstanding marvel since I haven't played it in about a year. But as far as I recall, many of the characters are useless without actually dishing out juggle damage. Not looking down on Marvel or anything (I love MvC3) but the same isn't true for Tekken.

 

[Shouta]

Of course, if you mean in terms of damage then absolutely, they aren't very dangerous (and I haven't played Virtua Fighter so I can't compare) but they can be very useful to change the spacing in a match (although against players who have more a significant amount of practice it is, of course, not a viable strategy under any circumstances as most will be able to break them).

As I said above, it's an option. In most games, it functions as a part of the gameplan like to change the flow or positioning of the fight or to set something up. It's not really a main form of attack because of damage and breaking it, though that varies from game to game. There are a lot more factors that go into it of course but that's a pretty big list, heh.

Unless your strategy consists of camping in one corner all day by using Modok and whoever else, mostly all characters rely on juggles to dish out damage.

Unless I'm forgetting and misunderstanding marvel since I haven't played it in about a year. But as far as I recall, many of the characters are useless without actually dishing out juggle damage. Not looking down on Marvel or anything (I love MvC3) but the same isn't true for Tekken.

You might be mistaking juggle for air combo. Dante, Magneto, etc have very long extended combos and those are juggles, assuming that's what DR2K is talking about. Standard air combos and ground combos are absolutely necessary but you don't necessarily need long strings to deal damage.

 

[Master Thespian]

Tried it in T4... BD is removed, focused on SS movement (which is easier), throws have only 1 input (press ~F to make the grab different).

Honestly, every single idea people think tekken needs, I could point them to T4. Reduced chars, simplified throws, movement, everything... and those changes made T4 not feel tekken. It felt like a VF copycat that didn't really copied VF at all, while sacrificing replayability and fun...

You didn't read a single thing I actually wrote.

-I said keep 1+3, 2+4, 1+2 for throws, but stop using other button inputs. So they would move the other throws to have one of the three inputs I suggested above.
ex. Paul's b1+4 becomes b2+4 (since it's a position change move).
-I didn't say take out backdash or backdash cancel. In fact, I suggested the exact opposite when I said improve normal bd (in one of two possible ways) and keep bdc as a better form of bd, but with a smaller advantage than it had before (due to the improvement of bd, not nerfing of bdc).
-Another example of confusing controls. You hit punches to roll into the background and kicks to roll into the foreground when you're knocked down. But once you're on the ground, you use the punches to roll and kicks to kick. Why not move the rolling functions to the stick? Why is the command to escape the mounted armbar 1+2, 2,2,2,2,2 when a standing escape is 1_2_1+2? What does that actually add to the game in terms of depth? Unifying the inputs is not the same as simplifying them.

I didn't call for reducing a single thing. Streamline (inputs) and improve (backdash).

It seems to me you see any suggestion of change, think Tekken 4, and write it off.

 

[DR2K]

You might be mistaking juggle for air combo. Dante, Magneto, etc have very long extended combos and those are juggles, assuming that's what DR2K is talking about. Standard air combos and ground combos are absolutely necessary but you don't necessarily need long strings to deal damage.

Yup.

 

[mephie]

I think this generation is just too spoonfed. Just a little amount of frustration causes rage...

A lot of newcomers seem to be put off by the difficulty of the arcade mode. I believe that there is a problem here, but it is with the difficulty curve rather that the actual boss difficulty. On easy, arcade mode is basically a series of punching bags capped off with an actual fight against someone with a few obligatory overpowered boss moves. She isn't that hard compared to a lot of other bosses, but the fights leading up to her do nothing to prepare a you for a fight against a competent opponent. For future games Namco needs to increase the difficulty of the earlier fights in easy and normal mode to give newcomer a smooth and gradual difficulty curve instead of mindlessly easy opponents with a large difficulty spike at the end.

 

[TGMIII]

They aren't as necessary for every character to win a the competitive level. see Guile vs Sakura.

I'm assuming you're using the example of guile zoning out sakura. All of Sakura's max damage combos come from links. Guile has close.RH > cr.mp > boom > sweep as one of his highest damage, non meter, links and works as a meaty frametrap, something Dieminion uses all the time. Guile's most basic link, that I know of off the top of my head, is cr.lk.>cr.lp>cr.mp>flash kick and you need to be able to do that.

I do see where you going with your thinking but it's been proven wrong even in the matchup you gave.

 

[Shouta]

Yup.

But you don't need combos to deal big damage in Tekken either, FYI. Fishing for counter hits and short strings is somewhat viable in this game. Long combos are generally the most common method but that's because it's guaranteed damage as long as you don't drop it after you get the launcher or setup.

 

[DR2K]

I'm assuming you're using the example of guile zoning out sakura. All of Sakura's max damage combos come from links. Guile has close.RH > cr.mp > boom > sweep as one of his highest damage, non meter, combos and works as a meaty frametrap, something Dieminion uses all the time. Guile's most basic link, that I know of off the top of my head, is cr.lk.>cr.lp>cr.mp>flash kick and you need to be able to do that.

I do see where you going with your thinking but it's been proven wrong even in the matchup you gave.

Eh, Guile isn't going to be using links anywhere near as much as Sakura does nor is it integral for him to win.

 

[Ferrio]

Yup.

Okay I think people are getting offbase now on sematics.

It boils down to the point that you don't have to do advanced tactics in tekken to win against people. Just like you don't have to use advanced tactics in ANY fighting game to win against people. It all depends on your opponent. So claiming that you *must* learn something in tekken is all based on who you play. Just like any other fighting game.

Hell I think it's easier to win in Tekken using basic stuff since there's so much gimmicky stuff that people have to learn to defend against.

 

[Sayah]

As I said above, it's an option. In most games, it functions as a part of the gameplan like to change the flow or positioning of the fight or to set something up. It's not really a main form of attack because of damage and breaking it, though that varies from game to game. There are a lot more factors that go into it of course but that's a pretty big list, heh.



You might be mistaking juggle for air combo. Dante, Magneto, etc have very long extended combos and those are juggles, assuming that's what DR2K is talking about. Standard air combos and ground combos are absolutely necessary but you don't necessarily need long strings to deal damage.

I am not good at all with fighting terminology as I have stated previously.

How do we define juggles? Does the opponent HAVE to stay in the air?

Because I always assumed juggles in Marvel = the whole combo. I mean the standard is low, medium, high, launcher which is not very hard to grasp. And then you have OTG stuff. But the opponent is constantly going from ground to air.

Not sure where I'm headed with this. I should shut up. lol

 

[DR2K]

Okay I think people are getting offbase now on sematics.

It boils down to the point that you don't have to do advanced tactics in tekken to win against people. Just like you don't have to use advanced tactics in ANY fighting game to win against people. It all depends on your opponent. So claiming that you *must* learn something in tekken is all based on who you play. Just like any other fighting game.

What I'm saying is the barrier is much higher in Tekken to actually do some of the simplest of mechancis.

But you don't need combos to deal big damage in Tekken either, FYI. Fishing for counter hits and short strings is somewhat viable in this game. Long combos are generally the most common method but that's because it's guaranteed damage as long as you don't drop it after you get the launcher or setup.

I never said juggles were the only way to win, although I can see how it could be implied.

 

[TGMIII]

Eh, Guile isn't going to be using links anywhere near as much as Sakura does nor is it integral for him to win.

So what do you do against characters you can't traditionally zone? You have to be able to do every link he has. Just because his game doesn't revolve around long links doesn't mean that you can get away without using them, especially at a competitive level. I mean I played Dieminion a long time ago and watched a ton of sets with him playing Europe's best players and even back then all of his damaging combos came from links but I'll stop derailing a tekken thread with SF talk.

 

[Ferrio]

What I'm saying is the barrier is much higher in Tekken to actually do some of the simplest of mechancis.

What are the simplest mechanics you're having trouble with? We already know the string issue which I don't even think is an issue but okay.

 

[DR2K]

So what do you do against characters you can't traditionally zone. You have to be able to do every link he has. Just because his game doesn't revolve around long links doesn't mean that you can get away without using them, especially at a competitive level. I mean I played Dieminion a long time ago and watched a ton of sets with him playing Europe's best players and even back then all of his damaging combos came from links.

It's a game of match ups. He can link, yes. But compare that to a character who's entire gameplan is based on links.

What are the simplest mechanics you're having trouble with? We already know the string issue which I don't even think is an issue but okay.

I'm not having any trouble out side of some combo timing and movement. But you have to look it at it from a communities perspective. From the new player to the guy that plays 3D fighters hardcore.

 

[AAK]

how do you define depth? I define it by the number of options an engine gives the player and its uses. Tell me how Tekken is deeper once you get past the execution level?

Yes, Tekken has much more options. Just look at the wakeup options in Tekken. You can say there are universally around 17 different ways to get up from the ground even excluding the character specific methods.

Look at the juggle system. You have generic strikes likes jabs and such that maintain the float of your opponent and use for wall carry. You have other strikes that are hard blows which that knock your opponent far away and usually used as a combo ender. You have moves that specifically bound to extend your combo, you have strikes that have them twirling either towards or away from the screen (e.g. Kaz's CD+4,1 or Julia's d/f+4,2,3). You have spike moves to quickly get into an oki game. You have moves that cause your opponent to half somersault (e.g. AKing's d/f+3 that forces them to land face first instead of on their back to prevent tech rolls. This is before even going into Tag Assauls, Stage Gimmicks, and Wall game.

Even in movement there is the option of going for only a sidestep or going further for a sidewalk if you anticipate a string or move with slow recovery. Also in movement you have Tekken's running game which gives you a plethora of options depending on how many steps you managed to include in your run. I can go on and on about what Tekken offers that no other fighter does including tag specific mechanics and other universal options like low parries and the throw system.

 

[DEATH™]

You didn't read a single thing I actually wrote.

-I said keep 1+3, 2+4, 1+2 for throws, but stop using other button inputs. So they would move the other throws to have one of the three inputs I suggested above.
ex. Paul's b1+4 becomes b2+4 (since it's a position change move).
As a King player, I disapprove. You should ALWAYS give the benefit to people who want to do the work, or that would be OP. Just imagine the damage King's GS as b+1+3 and MB as f+1+2?

-I didn't say take out backdash or backdash cancel. In fact, I suggested the exact opposite when I said improve normal bd (in one of two possible ways) and keep bdc as a better form of bd, but with a smaller advantage than it had before (due to the improvement of bd, not nerfing of bdc).

I didn't call for reducing a single thing. Streamline (inputs) and improve (backdash).

If that's what you're saying, then there's BD~SS. An alternative to BDC. BDC is the better form, and as far as Spacing goes, they work almost the same, yet BDC have small properties that makes it better to reward the players who practices it. What people are suggesting right now, it's already there...

It seems to me you see any suggestion of change, think Tekken 4, and write it off.
Soory, but most of the people's suggestions points to T4, I haven't seen any suggestions yet that I can't point T4 with. Well, aside from simplifying inputs to take away the hard work factor... which again, we can show you another set of reasons why it would be bad. (e.g. If BD is too easy and safe, Tekken would be worse that SSF4 turtlefest etc.

Responses in bold

A lot of newcomers seem to be put off by the difficulty of the arcade mode. I believe that there is a problem here, but it is with the difficulty curve rather that the actual boss difficulty. On easy, arcade mode is basically a series of punching bags capped off with an actual fight against someone with a few obligatory overpowered boss moves. She isn't that hard compared to a lot of other bosses, but the fights leading up to her do nothing to prepare a you for a fight against a competent opponent. For future games Namco needs to increase the difficulty of the earlier fights in easy and normal mode to give newcomer a smooth and gradual difficulty curve instead of mindlessly easy opponents with a large difficulty spike at the end.

Yeah that's a good point... T6 deals with that greatly by having a good opponent by stage 4, a hard bonus stage, and a good raged sub boss.

Now I kinda wish there's a "World Tour" mode, kinda like SFA3...

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I can go on and on about what Tekken offers that no other fighter does including tag specific mechanics and other universal options like low parries and the throw system."


Anyone can do this about any fighting game, though.

 

[Ferrio]

I'm not having any trouble out side of some combo timing and movement. But you have to look it at it from a communities perspective. From the new player to the guy that plays 3D fighters hardcore.

Okay, so what simple mechanics are you understanding but people aren't that's causing this barrier?

 

[Sayah]

how do you define depth? I define it by the number of options an engine gives the player and its uses. Tell me how Tekken is deeper once you get past the execution level?

When I look at depth, I look at gameplay.

Tekken's depth goes beyond the execution level. It's not merely about pulling off combos and moves and pokes and knowing the system and it's mechanics.

With depth, I look at how the game implements mind games, how it allows the player to be creative and how it allows the player to strategize among other things. Most fighters give you these options but the intensity of these options (a la mind games) varies with each game. And for this reason, I disagree that Tekken is no deeper than any other fighter as you stated.

 

[Shouta]

I am not good at all with fighting terminology as I have stated previously.

How do we define juggles? Does the opponent HAVE to stay in the air?

Because I always assumed juggles in Marvel = the whole combo. I mean the standard is low, medium, high, launcher which is not very hard to grasp. And then you have OTG stuff. But the opponent is constantly going from ground to air.

Not sure where I'm headed with this. I should shut up. lol

Terminology can very depending on community. As far as I understand juggle, it's extending a basic combo with OTGs, or relaunchers, etc. It's juggling by knocking them into the air again to prevent them from landing. But that's my definition. The actual UMVC3 community definition could be different.

In Tekken, a juggle to me would be bounds, walls, and tag assaults that allow you to extend the length of a single combo.

 

[Ferrio]

A juggle is just an airborne combo while you remain on the ground. It's really hard to apply them to traditional SF games. SF3 might be the only one I can think of that has a true juggle system. SF4 too I suppose too.

 

[Master Thespian]

Responses in bold

-How does f, hcf +1 turn into b+1+3? It would just be f, hcf+1+2 (because of the break, the 1 break animation would stay the same). Muscle Buster would stay the same. You're arguing against points that I'm not making.

-Backdash sidestep cancel still results in a small movement to the side, which is a bad idea in a game with walls. If a player wants to position themselves straight backwards, they shouldn't have to settle for going back and to the side.

-True backdash cancel is super safe (2-3 frames of vulnerability) and consistently performed by the Koreans. Their matches aren't some super boring snorefests so I don't see where you'd get that idea.

 

[Doomshine]

You have moves that cause your opponent to half somersault (e.g. AKing's d/f+3 that forces them to land face first instead of on their back to prevent tech rolls.

Huh? You can definitely tech roll after AK's d/f+3 and when you land on your face. It just provides better oki.

 

[DR2K]

Okay, so what simple mechanics are you understanding but people aren't that's causing this barrier?

Everything I didn't mention. Just look at some of the posts in this thread by new players or comments other people from other games make.

The 4 button layout, throw breaks, juggles extension, tag mechanics, etc. . . it doesn't help that the tutorial in the game explains jack shit.

When I look at depth, I look at gameplay.

Tekken's depth goes beyond the execution level. It's not merely about pulling off combos and moves and pokes and knowing the system and it's mechanics.

With depth, I look at how the game implements mind games, how it allows the player to be creative and how it allows the player to strategize among other things. Most fighters give you these options but the intensity of these options (a la mind games) varies with each game. And for this reason, I disagree that Tekken is no deeper than any other fighter as you stated.

What do other fighting games lack that Tekken is offering?

 

[Shouta]

A juggle is just an airborne combo while you remain on the ground. It's really hard to apply them to traditional SF games. SF3 might be the only one I can think of that has a true juggle system. SF4 too I suppose too.

Yeah, in the strictest sense it's keeping them airborne while you're on the ground. I've expanded my definition over the years to be more than that because generally, air combos like that while standing grounded is a pretty uncommon thing in most games. That's why I think of juggles to be the overall thing including relaunchers, OTGs, bounds, wall etc. They extend the combo like when you throw the ball up again when you're juggling.

 

[Ferrio]

Everything I didn't mention. Just look at some of the posts in this thread by new players or comments other people from other games make.

The 4 button layout, throw breaks, juggles extension, tag mechanics, etc. . . it doesn't help that the tutorial in the game explains jack shit.

The tutorial did suckhardcore I'll give you that.

As for what you listed, besides 4 button layout and throw breaks those aren't simple mechanics. Though I'm not sure how having 4 buttons is confusing to players. Throw breaks are simple, but they should make it more transparent what breaks each throw in the command list.

 

[Hunter-Zero]

The 4 button layout forms a barrier for newcomers? why? It just makes all the sense in the world, one button for each limb, i´ve learned several moves and combos by just watching vids or matches and paying attention to the character´s arms and legs

 

[CSX]

The 4 button layout forms a barrier for newcomers? why? It just makes all the sense in the world, one button for each limb, i´ve learned several moves and combos by just watching vids or matches and paying attention to the character´s arms and legs

This. How else does someone learn 10 moves automatically for a new character in a sequel?

Watched a trailer or demo of said character and then look at the animation of the attacks.

For me, the limb system also makes moves a lot easier to remember. ALl i gotta do is remember how the move looked like and then guess a couple times.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

I just don't understand why hitting two (or more) buttons at the same time is so hard in this game for me. I've never had this problem in any other fighter ever.

 

[Raonak]

4 button setup is the opposite of confusing.
X and O kicks. triangle and square punches.

both kicks/both punches = more powerful move

Kick and a punch = throw.

thats basically how i explain the moves to my casual friends, they pick it up pretty eaisly.

 

[Ferrio]

I just don't understand why hitting two (or more) buttons at the same time is so hard in this game for me. I've never had this problem in any other fighter ever.

Could you give an example of the string or whatever you're doing? Or this just a throw?

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Could you give an example of the string or whatever you're doing? Or this just a throw?

Anything with two buttons, throws included. In the practice mode when I look at my buttons I see that if I'm aiming to hit 1+2, sometimes it'll show up as "1, 1+2" or "2, 1+2". It really FEELS like I'm hitting them at the same time, but a 1 to 2 frame fuck up just feels too strict.

 

[QisTopTier]

Agreed, but that just proves my point. Huge ass combos have been a staple of tekken since tekken 1. Tekken 4 was like the closest departure from that... and look how well received it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R8QnV_8oNs

 

[GrayFoxPL]

What I'm saying is the barrier is much higher in Tekken to actually do some of the simplest of mechancis.

Tekken emphasises skill. That's why it's so popular in Asia and to players that like to be rewarded for their time and hard work that put into it. It's not an instant gratification game.
There's reason there's instantly visible disparity between noobies and seasoned players in Tekken. There's that long road of constant self improvement and learning. Tekken doesn't give anything on platter for lazy audience and no amount of whining will change that.

Why do you think DoA is not popular among Asians and hardcore crowd? Because it's not a deep series. It's a fun casual fighter but that's all. There are now real combos, stuns don't mean anything outside of very few examples(new unholdable stun after 4 hits and water trips) and juggles don't require any advanced movement, after launcher just stay still, dial 2 best strings and that's it. In Tekken many juggles require insane amount of correct movement, few frame dashes and move and movement cancels that may be invisible for someone not in the know.

Seeking guaranteed damage is one of the core point of competitive fighting game and DoA has very little of that, thus is the reason DoA isn't treated very seriously.

 

[Shouta]

The 4 button layout forms a barrier for newcomers? why? It just makes all the sense in the world, one button for each limb, i´ve learned several moves and combos by just watching vids or matches and paying attention to the character´s arms and legs

It makes logical sense but it doesn't really mesh as well with other games. The other 2 3D fighting games are 3 and 4 buttons but only dictate a single type of attack per button (P and K for VF, Horizontal attacks, Vertical attacks, and kicks in SC) whereas although you have only 4 buttons in Tekken, two of them are punch and two of them are kick. They seemingly do the same thing on single presses and because you have to remember which of the punches to use on some moves, coming from another 3D game, it can be a bit messy.

SF games have 6 buttons and 3 punches and 3 kicks but the game doesn't rely on strings that you need to memorize most of the time, they use links and those are easier to remember than a lot of different strings.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

As I said above, it's an option. In most games, it functions as a part of the gameplan like to change the flow or positioning of the fight or to set something up. It's not really a main form of attack because of damage and breaking it, though that varies from game to game. There are a lot more factors that go into it of course but that's a pretty big list, heh.

Oh ok, I understand what you mean better now. I had misinterpretted what you wrote and apologise profusely.

I do wonder though, DR2K, how would you improve the usefulness of throws? If we take damage into consideration and boost the throw damage, we are left with a big problem. There are many combos in the game that do a significant amount of damage to the enemy, this is a widely known aspect of Tekken. If we boost throw damage, how much do we boost it by? If we boost it ten/twenty percent for example, you run the risk of having some matches end in one big juggle, a throw and a few pokes. This would make the game even less welcoming surely as those who have mastered the combat system would be able to take advantage of this. This would be made even worse by the difficulty of breaking throws while online where lag (in theory anyway, the netcode in this is so good that it might not be too big of a problem) can reduce the amount of frames you have to break a throw and, in turn, make it much more difficult (especially when people new to the game are of course not going to be too adept at throw-breaking based upon the simple fact that they're new to the game).

So maybe we increase the amount of time to break a throw? Well this leaves another problem. If we increase this then the validity of throws may be entirely negated as people will be caught less regularly in throws which would significantly decrease their usefulness as rather than doing some damage on a consistent basis they would do slightly more damage on a less regular basis (which would likely only impact those new to the game). So then we have the option of lowering juggle damage while increasing poke damage further and this is a possibility I guess but if I recall Tekken Tag Tournament 2 had some form of change to juggle damage (I think it was the initial arcade release but this is only based upon reading an article that I can barely even recollect so this will admittedly need verification) which I believe was a reduction. This did not go down well as it changes the game style and increases the potential to simply button mash your way to victory. This still would not really help though because if you increase poke damage, lower juggle damage and increase throw damage you're putting an even bigger significance on low-frame attacks and mix-ups which still leaves it beginner unfriendly as a greater emphasis is put onto memorising each characters' mix-ups to allow you to dodge them better.

So then there is another option, give throws different properties to increase their usefulness, maybe a bound, vastly increase the space between you and your opponent after a throw, move them in a certain direction or launch them into the air. This would still make things complicated for new users as it adds even more properties that have to be learnt.

The point I'm trying to make, and I don't know how effectively I've done it, is that making throws "better/more effective" isn't particularly helpful as it doesn't state what way to make them better. By simply making them more effective you may damage the game's balance. Alternatively, as with later examples, you improve throws yet they still make the game difficult to learn as you just give more things to memorise.

Honestly though, I don't see the problem. To me, it makes sense that somebody who dedicates more time mastering the mechanics will be better than somebody who doesn't. Yes, as more things get added it means that a beginner will have to learn more things in a shorter time period than an experienced player but the experienced player still had to learn the same mechanics, the time to do that was just spread out over a longer time period.

CSX, I completely agree with you on the four limb system. To me, it makes it feel much more logically based when trying to perform attacks. Besides the obvious ones, if two hands are used, it's probably 1+2 with a movement. If two feet are utilised, 3+4 and then it's only a matter of trying to see what direction to input with them.

 

[CSX]

Anything with two buttons, throws included. In the practice mode when I look at my buttons I see that if I'm aiming to hit 1+2, sometimes it'll show up as "1, 1+2" or "2, 1+2". It really FEELS like I'm hitting them at the same time, but a 1 to 2 frame fuck up just feels too strict.

I know that feel bro. missing so many bounds cuz of this.

People told me its easier to press two buttons on stick but i cant confirm that. On pad you just gotta pratice and learn to buffer attack inputs. For example, lets say part of your combo is to press 2 and then df1+2. What you can do is press and hold 2 and then do df+1 as you are still holding 2.

Of course you cant buffer everything (like doing a kick and then a 1+2). For that point, just gotta pratice.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I'd argue tekken is on par with any other fighter in terms of shrinking fanbase.

It's a problem across the whole genre.

Likely. Its not just Tekken for sure.

I can imagine DoA5 selling less than DoA4 for example, even though its across 2 systems now. Soul Calibur 5 saw a very lacklustre performance. I think the last truly great selling Tekken was the first TTT on Ps2, after that it went worse with each installment. Even the hated T4 sold better than the fifth game if i'm not mistaken.

Tekken 6 learnt us though that fighting games seem to sell best at a lower price point. That game began to roll once its pricetag was slashed in half. But in any case its certainly not only Tekken that sees a decline.

Its almost impossible to think that fighting games such as T3 and SF2 were system sellers once.

 

[Doomshine]

Anything with two buttons, throws included. In the practice mode when I look at my buttons I see that if I'm aiming to hit 1+2, sometimes it'll show up as "1, 1+2" or "2, 1+2". It really FEELS like I'm hitting them at the same time, but a 1 to 2 frame fuck up just feels too strict.

I noticed I started having this problem in Tag 1 on Ps2 and I came to the conclusion it was the new pressure sensitive buttons they introduced in the newer controllers. I tested with a regular non-dual shock ps1 controller and it was much easier.

What you can do if you know ahead of time that you need to press two buttons is buffer one of them and press the other when needed.

EDIT: beaten again.