DOT DASH DOT
Member
Hopefully they have, but tbh I really can't complain with the lag on the 902, it feels great, and I'm coming from a low input lag Sammy.
I did spot in that unboxing, no BFI mode though......
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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED
- Thread starter BumRush
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Hopefully they have, but tbh I really can't complain with the lag on the 902, it feels great, and I'm coming from a low input lag Sammy.
I did spot in that unboxing, no BFI mode though......
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
Thanks for the reply. What was your TV issue?
Post #4101 is the beginning of the story for my issue if you want the long detailed version, but long story short is that my B6 arrive with a vertical band that would shoot up the screen when powering on and the set would immediately turn off.
All in all, I had a perfectly working B6 within a week of me contacting LG for repair.
Thanks for all the replies. I really think I might just not have paid any attention to the actual requirements of pushing a 4k signal through. I'm now looking at the site and they have an entire 4K HDMI cable section. I can imagine I must have just not looked at this. The cable I bought just said HDMI 1.4 High Speed, and nothing about 4K resolution or any of that.
Sadly we don't have that here. The biggest site available to me only lists 3 cables with the length I'm going to require, of which only one of them mentions 4096 x 2160 @ 50/60hz.
(It would be third one)
Edit: Thanks Weevilone! That's very useful!
Sadly we don't have that here. The biggest site available to me only lists 3 cables with the length I'm going to require, of which only one of them mentions 4096 x 2160 @ 50/60hz.
(It would be third one)
Edit: Thanks Weevilone! That's very useful!
Getting a certified cable should be the most important thing. Earlier I mentioned a couple of threads dealing with this. I dug them up and will list them below. It's a lot of information but it's exactly your present issue. Hopefully it'll help you identify a cable that you can buy in your area. I'm not familiar with the source you listed, but only the middle cable appears to be certified.
AVS UHD and long HDMI runs
AVS HDMI cables for 4-4-4 and 4K 60Hz
AVS HDMI Test Reports for 2.0b and 18Gb/s
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
Nice I'm happy to hear lg provides a decent customer service
So I just got the 65" A1E. I came from a 2016 Vizio P series, and it's one hell of a jump! BFI works extremely well, and things look incredibly realistic.
Also, having the ability to manually enable/disable specific HDR modes is a godsend for HDR troubleshooting. Thanks to this, I now know that HDR only enables properly if you have HDR mode enabled in windows, not just in game (though that CAN work sporadically if you cycle resolutions), and you have to have Nvidia's default display settings enabled (i.e. no manually selecting bit depth, etc.)
If anyone has questions about this TV, I'm happy to share my experience so far
Grats enjoy it!
I tried BFI in store and the flicker was annoying to me. I couldn't dial it down to calibration levels due to the store lighting though, may be that was the issue?
Mine should be in any day!
Oh wow, it does 3D.
So there is a 2017 OLED with 3D.
However, as noted in the review:
I thought I saw BFI? Isn't that black frame insertion? You can see the flicker when he enables it.
What's the input lag on the 902?
Felix Lighter
Member
So, for HDMI it's either 4K 60Hz 4:2:0 or 4K 30 Hz 4:4:4?
Theonik
Member
HDMI 2.0 allows 4K60 4:4:4 but only for SDR.
HDMI 2.1 gives you 4:4:4 for HDR.
Felix Lighter
Member
ok thanks, got it. Do any TVs exist that support HDMI 2.1, yet?
Theonik
Member
No devices exist that support 2.1 at this time.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
I'm talking rubbish! I stopped the clip on the IFC menu (got distracted) which is where Clear motion (BFI) is normally found.
It's located under that option now, and yeah it really flickers, but I'm confused, I literally see no flicker with it enabled on the 902, I even tried recording it to see if the phone would pick it up, and nothing.
Perhaps shutter speed I dunno, but it's the only BFI TV I've ever seen that produces 1080 lines with no visible flicker, I'd like to know how they've managed it.
With 1080p it's 36ms inc local dimming, but I've seen no trustworthy 4K lag results, which I think is lower, feels great, and really responsive on a PC desktop.
It strobes at 120Hz and causes double-images with 60 FPS sources.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx58dx902b-201604174282.htm said:[...] causes a slight luminance drop, double ghost images, and possibly DLP-like rainbow effect for sensitive viewers due to increased refresh of red phosphor decay.
Felix Lighter
Member
One of my major concerns with my new TV is image retention since I often output my windows desktop to the TV. Does anyone know of a chrome extension that hides the entire top menu unless the cursor reaches the top of the window? I'm finding nothing, so I'm guessing not. That is the one thing I expect to cause an issue. I already have the taskbar auto hide.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
Does the Panny OLED and A1E strobe at 60hz then?
Yes.
- The panel only updates at 120Hz and both seem to actually be inserting black images into the video signal, therefore the maximum BFI rate on these displays is 60Hz. An LCD can strobe the backlight at a different rate than the panel is being updated at.
- Refresh rate must be equal to source framerate to avoid double-images and judder. So flicker is a consequence of 60 FPS sources, not a fault of BFI.
Interpolation is unsuitable for gaming though, due to the additional latency introduced.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
Yeah, i was playing around with interpolation/BFI and it's a pretty miserable experience, but I'd take the double imaging any day personally, on my W905a the flicker is pretty distracting on bright scenes, and you can't make the brightness loss up.
Surely being that an OLED has an 120hz refresh rate it could strobe at 120? Or is it not possible?
I'm looking to improve my TV (Samsung KU6300)'s sound quality (Thumper does not currently really thump) and I've heard that even inexpensive sound bars are reasonable options for this.
I'm concerned, though, about lag being an issue. Is an optical, directly-connected sound bar going to ruin my nice sub-20ms setup by playing all sound too late? Unfortunately, an analog connection is not an option.
I'm concerned, though, about lag being an issue. Is an optical, directly-connected sound bar going to ruin my nice sub-20ms setup by playing all sound too late? Unfortunately, an analog connection is not an option.
Theonik
Member
Being that BFI is literally inserting frames it can only work if the signal plus black frames equal the display's rate. Backlight scanning and strobing do not have that limitation as the backlight is independent, meaning you can incorporate both on a single frame. Though even LCDs don't opt to do that. It's hard. BFI at 60Hz has the same issue for some as with earlier CRTs which could noticeably flicker. That's why most of the late 1990s and 2000s sets were 100 or 120Hz depending on your region.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
So let me understand this, is it possible for an OLED to strobe at 120hz? Or because an OLED has no physical backlight it's limited to 60? Being that an OLED is starved for brightness as it is, and a 60hz strobe will just make it appear dimmer?
Theonik
Member
Only with a 240Hz panel, but you will also need to double the input to 120Hz. Which means double images.
Now, depending on the implementation, some LCDs have the same issue.
The loss of brightness is a problem that is true of any BFI implementation. Though you can be clever and compensate for the fact that the backlight will be off half the time to drive it brighter.
e: That's how nVidia's lightboost worked but it was designed to help with active 3D originally and has more frames to work with. Also this approach will be dead in the water when adaptive sync is involved which is why with G-sync you can only have one or the other. TV makers have abandoned BFI/Strobing in favour of backlight scanning in part due to these limitations and to reduce flicker.
Lucky!
DOT DASH DOT
Member
I completely understand what you are saying, and perhaps I'm confusing myself now lol, obviously both the OLED and 902 LCD have 120hz native panels but one (the LCD) does it without flicker, and the other (OLED) does the same with noticeable flicker and dimness, so why is the OLED doing this at 60? Am I getting BFI and backlight scanning mixed up or something.....
Just trying to square it in my head.
Theonik
Member
Again, the flicker will be much more noticeable on camera! You might not even notice on an actual TV but it's still there.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
I tried it on my camera, and it was rock solid 902, flickery on the W905a.
2 different things trying to help with the same issues
Backlight scanning is strobing the backlight
BFI is Black Frame insertion, which changes every pixel to black between arch image frame
DOT DASH DOT
Member
BFI is what the 902, W905a and OLED uses, and I understand why the W905a flickers and dims, because it's an 60hz panel, but the 902 and OLED are 120hz, so I just don't get why the OLED strobes at 60hz when it has an 120hz panel, but the 902 is doing it at 120.....
Is it literally down to implementation, or hardware?
With an LCD that uses backlight strobing/scanning, the strobe is independent of the display panel.
It can draw 120 unique images on the LCD panel, and then switch the backlight on & off 120 times a second.
With these OLEDs, there is no backlight.
To do black frame insertion, they are drawing a black image on the OLED panel.
So with a 120Hz panel they can only draw 60 image frames and 60 black frames; i.e. 60Hz BFI.
To do 120Hz BFI using this method, they need a 240Hz panel.
That does not have to be the way that it's done though.
If it is possible to simply switch the OLED panel off, you could draw 120 image frames per second on a 120Hz screen, and then switch it off in-between frames.
That way you are still only sending 120 images to the panel, but also 120 on & off signals.
None of that changes the fact that 120Hz BFI with a 60Hz signal is terrible though.
The clearer the motion is, the worse it looks.
120Hz is maybe acceptable on your 902 because it still has a lot of motion blur remaining when BFI is activated which blends the double-images together somewhat.
With a CRT or OLED, you don't have that motion blur and the double images are very distinct.
NVIDIA have demonstrated BFI combined with G-Sync now.
What they're doing is double-strobing any time you get below 1/2 the panel's maximum refresh rate.
So on a 144Hz panel you get single-strobing from 144 to 73 FPS, and double-strobing from 72 FPS down. Probably triple-strobing from 48 FPS down, and so on.
I'm not a fan of this approach, but then again, most people would object to single strobing at low refresh rates.
It seems like it would work well in games you can keep above 72 FPS at all times, but you would probably want traditional G-Sync for games which drop below that.
Personally, I don't care about flicker at all.
I grew up with 50Hz CRTs, so I'm used to it.
I notice it when I first start using a screen that flickers, but it doesn't bother me as long as it's single-strobing.
I would rather have no strobing than double-strobing though. It makes motion look terrible.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
Thanks for clearing that up! Don't get me wrong, you can see double edging, but yeah maybe the blur that is left hides it somewhat, it's definitely better on than off, a slight bit of double edging is worth the trade off for me, as it's nice to be able to see the textures without them being blurred.
Each to their own I guess.
This whole TV business is really complicated ... I unfortunately don't have much time to research. For about 1300$, which TV would you get ? I ideally want both 4K and HDR. Something that would play nice with my PC would be a good bonus too (currently have a 980 ti)
I'd really appreciate it.. Thanks
I'd really appreciate it.. Thanks
DOT DASH DOT
Member
It'll be excellent, I use an X2300 and it's awesome.
Awesome. I was going to get the x2300, but I wanted pre out option.
If it was in vivid mode or something similar, that would explain it. In my experience so far, it's not overbearing at all in use for games or videos, it just stands out on any static content. There also seems to be a period of adjustment, though. Coming from my LED P series (which uses PWM), the effect is far less jarring.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
What if Sony announces another dedicated gaming TV like the 3D one that displays two different screens when viewed from different angles?
TheBoss1
Member
I doubt Sony would bother but if they do, it will have to appeal to the PC crowd as well which means extremely low input lag. Casual gamers make up majority of the console user base and they will just use a cheap set as long as lag is not too noticeable. It will also be expensive since Sony would not expect to sell too many units so they can have a bigger profit margin per unit.
In other words, there's not a market for a gaming TV especially if they follow a similar strategy to the last iteration - well at least at the moment.
Its a total pipe dream but I'd love Sony to release a high end gaming TV with the PS4 hardware just built into the TV itself so you don't need to buy the system. Of course this will never happen for a variety of reasons but I think it would be cool.
PeterVenkman
Member
I try to pop back in this thread, especially with LG's new line coming out, to report back in on my experience with the 2016 models. Nearing a year owning a B6, and I am noticing the ABL more and more.
Movies i almost rarely do - games are the culprit. Specifically it's open world games.
I noticed it most last year with GTA V. Now I'm noticing it in MGS V ($8 on the humble store, how could I resist?). It's generally easy to let slide in the daytime but at night it is actually hindering my gameplay. I'll sneak up on an outpost at night at an angle and everything is pretty ok, bright enough to see. Then I move my camera to face the camp that has a campfire and BAM - instantly the shadows (and my character) are crushed dark. It's really jarring. Transitions from indoors to outdoors are similarly extreme and no less forgiveable in a stealth game like this.
I so wish there was a way to override this. If it was just a service menu fix like ABSL then I'd be over it immediately. Basically every time I move the right stick I can guarantee a brightness shift.
Movies i almost rarely do - games are the culprit. Specifically it's open world games.
I noticed it most last year with GTA V. Now I'm noticing it in MGS V ($8 on the humble store, how could I resist?). It's generally easy to let slide in the daytime but at night it is actually hindering my gameplay. I'll sneak up on an outpost at night at an angle and everything is pretty ok, bright enough to see. Then I move my camera to face the camp that has a campfire and BAM - instantly the shadows (and my character) are crushed dark. It's really jarring. Transitions from indoors to outdoors are similarly extreme and no less forgiveable in a stealth game like this.
I so wish there was a way to override this. If it was just a service menu fix like ABSL then I'd be over it immediately. Basically every time I move the right stick I can guarantee a brightness shift.
moltonasty
Member
I'm still waiting for the price to drop on the 65E6P...I figured by now it would be closer to $2500 but it still seems to be well over 3K. Hopefully I still have a chance later this year and there's still some stock left.
Resident_UA
Member
That's really weird. On B7 ABL doesn't kick in until more than 60% of screen is white. Didn't know that it was so bad in B6 models... Are you sure you have ECO settings off? If not B6 to B7 improvement is larger than I thought.
PeterVenkman
Member
I thought the 2017 models actually had a way to disable ABL when playing SDR content with proper settings? It's actually one of the features I'm most interested in.
I'll check but I'm prettt sure I've done it all. ECO off, tried maxing the oled light and lowering contrast, etc etc. it's real noticeable for me, but I think some people aren't as sensitive to it. Also again, not all games suffer from it as badly in my experience.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
Sector is your man for the ZD, but it's 28ms for 4K gaming, only thing that may concern me is pixel response.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
Panasonic OLED EZ1002 review.
https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-65-ez1002b-ez1000-ultra-hd-4k-hdr-oled-tv-review.13312
£7000!!
https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-65-ez1002b-ez1000-ultra-hd-4k-hdr-oled-tv-review.13312
£7000!!
