My 5020 had the older Netflix progress bar retained for a few weeks back in the day, but that's about the only time I had issues with it (it went away), and that's after playing things like Skyrim Dark Souls and Bloodborne for hours on end. I do keep the orbiter turned on, though I don't think the image moves enough for that to make any difference, frankly, since I can even notice it don't it.
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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED
- Thread starter BumRush
- Start date
My 5020 had the older Netflix progress bar retained for a few weeks back in the day, but that's about the only time I had issues with it (it went away), and that's after playing things like Skyrim Dark Souls and Bloodborne for hours on end. I do keep the orbiter turned on, though I don't think the image moves enough for that to make any difference, frankly, since I can even notice it don't it.
Thanks!
I upgraded from an SVS PB2000 that i used and loved for years. No going back now though. Lol
Dave_6
Member
After I posted, I went in there and plugged the Kuro back up. Ran the grey slides on it to check that one spot of burn in and yeah it really isn't bad at all. Possibly would've cleared up if I had kept using it. Mine had so many hours on it though that the black levels had really elevated to the point it needed a professional calibration to hopefully get it back to where it originally was.
That said, the uniformity of that display is pretty much perfect. Blows my B6 out of the water as far as that goes.
This. Probably the main reason I went with the 65" x900e. I've put over 1000 hrs into Destiny and experienced burn in on my panny plasma. That kinda scared my off oled with D2 coming up.
holygeesus
Banned
You can get burn-in on LCDs. It's just harder to achieve and most of the time not permanent (image persistence).
ACH1LL3US
Member
I have owned MANY Kuro's and still have one that I gave to my Mom 2yrs ago, it Still has the best motion for 60fps games out there except a crt :,(
Having said that, my Mom watched CNN and left it on the tv all day everyday for about a year and guess what??
It has permanent image burn in. I tried many many times to get it removed, running the hour long screen wipe etc and nothing will get rid of it. So just to be clear, even the mighty Kuro can get burn in with extreme cases. I mean, i played games on that beast for years and never had a problem, so the whole thing that gaming will do it is nonesense, watching one of those news stations with permanent banners on the bottom for months at a time all day will do it!
As for the current scare of Oled's and burn in or inage retention. I have over 500hrs on my C7 and it is only used for pc/console gaming and I have had NO issues with image retention staying for any long period. I do use PC mode ISF bright , gamma 2.2 with contrast at 85 and oled picture at 35 so there is no abl.
Before the C7, I had a 65 B6. If you look at my posts in this thread, I accidentally left youtube on it and it stopped on the screen after a video with many boxes of videos with black behind then. I had absl turned off and auto dim on the tv turned off and it was left like this for 8-9 hrs. Not only did I screw this up once but I did it twice lol!! I only had to run the 1hr screen clean and the inage retention went aeay both times. So to me I wouldnt worry about normal gaming causing any issues.
For people getting burn in or inage retention on the C7, what is your contrast and Oled picture settings at??
Interesting. Do other manufacturers not cover it for their LCDs?
ACH1LL3US
Member
At my prior job I had a Dell ips and it got image retention from my desktop image, I changed it to black screen and it took about a week to go away.
What was your oled settings oled picture and contrast when you got image retention?
It means they consider LCDs that suffer burn-in to be a manufacturing defect rather than something that can be caused by the user. 10 years is practically a lifetime warranty.
If burn-in could be reliably caused by users, that warranty would be really easy to abuse to get free TVs every few years.
It is near impossible to achieve but they state it for legal purposes. OLED is the only technology right now that gets image retention somewhat quickly. Very rarely is it permanent either with almost all of it going away within minutes plus tools allow you to fix it quickly as well. Smartphones with AMOLED displays get such severe image retention people mistake it for burn-in.
Most people are on year 2-3 of owning OLED and you haven't seen any massive increase in users complaining. It is often a one-off issue. So you are right, you may get image retention on LED-LCD's but it is so incredibly rare, it would be the same as saying your motherboard may fail as well. I think the X900E due to how they have the screen and FALD and high sustained nit brightness even over the KS8000 is the first LED-LCD tv Rtings tested where they had image retention for a few seconds. Not anywhere close to OLED. And not even in same league as old plasma or rear projections.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Kyoufu
Don't you have warranty anymore? A month ago or so my newly bought 65B6 kept crashing in Netflix and menus. LG repair service arrived, went into the service menu and in there the guy could see that things were not working properly. It said "abnormal" and things like that that had to do with the CPU.
Maybe something can be done there? Or do the service guys just refuse to come as soon as you mention burn in?
Oh and...
People here with an OLED and HDR gaming, any problems with IR when playing a HDR game for a long time? I mean, any games out there where the hud is just bright enough to create IR? Hope not, but I can't try it for myself.
Don't you have warranty anymore? A month ago or so my newly bought 65B6 kept crashing in Netflix and menus. LG repair service arrived, went into the service menu and in there the guy could see that things were not working properly. It said "abnormal" and things like that that had to do with the CPU.
Maybe something can be done there? Or do the service guys just refuse to come as soon as you mention burn in?
Oh and...
People here with an OLED and HDR gaming, any problems with IR when playing a HDR game for a long time? I mean, any games out there where the hud is just bright enough to create IR? Hope not, but I can't try it for myself.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Oops, double post.
It's been longer than a year and their email reply was that they don't cover image retention. Not too bothered because it's faint enough to not be a distraction in 95% of content.
Haven't actually seen it today whilst watching Cricket and Football.
ACH1LL3US
Member
So your using 100 oled light?? I use 35 on my C7, at 100 I wouldnt be surprised your getting image retention. When I used all of those Kuros, I would never run them at max as that would always induce inage retention, these oled's are no different.
I think that getting inage retention with 100 oled light is just not representative of how well oled does with image retention. To me running it at 100 all the time is just asking for inage retention problems.
Would you run your crt back in the day at max?
I didn't think it'd be a problem since even at 100 the screen isn't what I consider to be all that bright. At least not on my E6.
learnedhand
Member
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ACH1LL3US
Member
For small items on the screen like hud items in games, netflix emblems etc, those small items are way brighter then running the screen at 35 oled light.
In NO way does this following statement I am going to make is intended to insult you or anyone else running 100 oled light :
" Running 100 oled picture all the time especially in games is borderline abuse, just like doing max on a crt or plasma. These are emissive displays and everyone has to keep that in mind when they run them maxed out"
If you really desire the scorching brightness of a maxed out picture, I would suggest an led tv.
On the C7 running 35 oled light gives you 150nits full screen which is more then bright enough unless trying to watch in a bright room with a lot of reflections.
holygeesus
Banned
I've used OLED Light at 100 for over a year, gaming for many hours at a time and have no IR or burn-in, so I'd say it's not likely your cause either. If you haven't had Netflix logos on long enough to give IR even it seems to me to be more likely a panel fault at the pixel level rather than traditional burn-in. I'd certainly be calling out an engineer if under warranty.
ACH1LL3US - running at 100 OLED Light is nowhere near abusing these sets. In fact, some pro calibrators set it to 100 and adjust contrast down to accommodate, in order to alleviate ABL.
Sanctuary
Member
You must be watching TV in an extremely bright environment then.
It also doesn't look as good. 100 OLED/40 Contrast doesn't give the same picture as 100 Contrast/40 OLED.
I don't think it's abuse at all. If you're playing something like FFXV for 100 hours then you're playing it in HDR at max brightness. Is that abuse as well? If it is then OLED has a major problem.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
That's pretty ridiculous though. "Don't set the brightness to one of the supported values (the one at which HDR content looks the best), it might damage the TV!"
Having to baby your expensive new TV like that, not being able to use it to its fullest, tells me OLED just isn't where it needs to be yet. LCD with good local dimming seems like the best overall choice at the moment.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Using the TV at one of its supported brightness settings is "abuse"? Again, that's ridiculous, and tells me OLED really isn't ready for prime time.
Sanctuary
Member
It might be an inconvenience, but it's worth it (usually) if you want a better picture. That's like complaining that you can't keep your stereo volume maxed simply because it allows you to turn the knob as high as it does.
Like plasma, OLEDs are more enthusiast oriented because of the extra care they might need. Doesn't make them inferior, just not as user friendly and mass market.
That's a silly analogy when you have to consider that HDR needs maximum brightness.
Sanctuary
Member
It really isn't right now at all, unless you want me to believe that every game you play is in HDR as is all of the video you watch. HDR or no, I don't play even SD games that have a lot of static images for huge marathon sessions without breaks. Having the OLED at 100 shouldn't be an issue, unless you're running it like that exclusively with a lot of static images.
It's all about accumulated wear.
If the logo is up there 15 minutes a day, every day, that's 105 minutes a week.
Since that's in a 'letterbox' area of the screen, it will be receiving less wear to "even it out" than the rest of the panel if you watch a lot of movies.
Most instances of burn-in seem to occur with red or yellow on the LG OLEDs, so perhaps they are more sensitive to it.
Even if the logo was only on-screen for 5 minutes at a time, if you did nothing but watch letterboxed movies on Netflix, it would burn in over time, since it's the only wear that section of the panel would be receiving.
Exactly. Outside of defects or commercial use, it should basically be impossible to cause permanent damage to an LCD from a static image.
The reason is that the LCD crystal alignment resets when you switch the display off.
So unless you are running the display 24/7 it shouldn't be possible to cause permanent damage.
There have been cases of it though - Samsung have previously released displays where the overdrive was too aggressive and caused permanent damage.
And some high pixel density IPS panels that were used in Apple devices show temporary image retention - but that's not something which would lead to burn-in on an LCD.
Ah, the typical victim-blaming begins.
It is not unreasonable to run the display at its maximum brightness - especially when the current OLEDs are so dim. And HDR requires it!
Full-screen brightness for an E6 is ~130 nits, increasing to 225 nits for 50% screen brightness. That's less than my old SDR LCD after 7.5 years of aging.
With my Kuros, they were typically at 15-20 contrast (out of 63 I think?) because I calibrated them so that the 1% peak brightness would be 100 nits.
Still suffered from permanent burn-in after only a few hours of gaming.
Same thing for Panasonic plasmas. Despite calibrating them to 100 nits peak brightness - which is much lower than most people run their displays at - I had a lot of issues with image retention/permanent burn-in.
Viewing habits tend to matter more than the settings you use.
Since it's not literally burning the panel (these days "burn-in" is uneven ageing) lower brightness levels are only going to slow the process rather than stop it.
Depends on the CRT. The larger monitors I owned typically required 90-100% to hit 100 nits peak brightness. It was never an issue.
ACH1LL3US
Member
Have any of you owned a CRT or plasma in the past? Would you run it at max brightness?
I personally would not recommend running an emmisive display at max brightness 100% of the time.
i had to make sure this wasn't an april fools video
watching these guys fix a tv by repeatedly dropping it has me dead
Is this really a thing? I'd imagine the pixel refreshing the B7 does every time you turn it off would negate possible accumulated wear and the only way you'd get burn-in would be by having the same static image be there for a long time uninterrupted.
Brought my OLED Light up to 50. My gaming sessions are usually long, 6 or 7 hours at best (worst?) on weekends, but I doubt anything's gonna happen at this brightness. I'll probably gradually bring it up if I'm not seeing any ir.
e: actually, what would be a good way to check for image retention? Cycling through a bunch of solid fullscreen colors?
That's what I thought as well but it seems to have been ineffective when I watched Breaking Bad, Stranger Things, Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage on Netflix. Accumulated wear is the only assumption I can make because I didn't keep that logo on screen for hours straight. It's very hard to do that if you're not actively trying to get burn in that way.
Emissive displays have always been subject to uneven wear. This isn't new. It's the price you pay for the benefits of the technology. If the buyer can't accept that, then they can look into LCDs. However, even with the best local dimming, LCDs cannot place a bright pixel next to a black one. Specular highlights suffer. Starfields, particle effects in games, they also suffer. And even with 2017 panels, LCDs cannot do all pixel transitions in a 60Hz feed in a way that doesn't cause at least some artifacting.
It's really hard to recommend an LCD TV over like $1.5/2k for these reasons, unless the person is using it as a computer monitor for desktop stuff.
OLED was something like 2/3 of the premium TV market in the US last year, and it will be higher than that this year. So it seems like most buyers in this price ranger are ok with the risk of burn-in. I do agree that LG needs to work on this, and they definitely should replace burned-in panels under warranty. That said, my B7 gets no significant image retention. I play MMOs on mine, and any IR is gone within seconds. Burn-in seems to be a panel defect rather than a widespread problem.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
They are inferior in terms of the very thing we're discussing here - brightness - and that's exactly what you need for HDR to really work. Even at max brightness these OLEDs pale in comparison to the brightness a good LCD will achieve. And leaving your OLED on max damages the screen.
Your stereo analogy doesn't work, because there's no reason to ever turn the volume all the way up unless you really want to go deaf.
Having to keep adjusting the brightness up and down depending on the content is silly.
What's your OLED Light at, usually? And I assume your play sessions are usually fairly long? It's MMOs we're talking about after all lol.
Idontbelieveyou.gif
100 oled 100 contrast here for 10 months now without any Major Retention problems
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Guess it depends on your usage pattern. But it clearly can be a significant issue (just read this thread), and that's something I personally don't want to have to worry about. OLED, or some evolution of it, is clearly the future of TV display tech, but for now I'll be holding off. The really good ones are also damn expensive so far.
Sanctuary
Member
Again, who needs their OLED backlight to be at 100 100% of the time? Even if you were to keep it that high 24/7, if you're just using the TV to watch movies, it doesn't matter.
Also (again): http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245523327&postcount=10836
Do you own one of these sets? Otherwise, you sound like someone complaining about an issue that they don't have any personal experience with and blowing it out of proportion. Usually people have each input adjusted for environment and content too when they actually care this much about it. So at worst, you would have to switch from ISF Dark to ISF Bright. You may as well be complaining that you even have to bother to turn the set on in the first place.
No panel technology has ever been perfect. You just have to pick your poison and deal with it. Maybe some day LCD will have finally progressed to the point in which backlighting isn't noticeable at all, and the black levels are superb, without any trade-offs. But that's not now. Although from what I've read, Panasonic is getting close.
DOT DASH DOT
Member
OLED vs LCD is as old as the heavens! They are both awful so let's just leave it at that :0
You really don't have to baby OLEDs at all. Only paranoid people suggest that. Mine's been set at 100 since I got it four months ago, and I have had no burn-in at all.
I get momentary image retention switching to a game on the Xbox menus, that's the only place I've seen it, but when I say momentary I mean it's gone 10 seconds later. Never had any burn-in.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Sure, but again, having to keep adjusting it in fear of burn-in is just not something I think you should have to deal with. A TV - especially an expensive one - should be usable to its fullest extent without being damaged.
Have your missed the big Netflix logo tragedy that has transpired in this thread?
holygeesus
Banned
You seem to me ignoring those of us without issues though, who have 'abused' our sets for over a year now without concerns. As someone else mentioned, it points to their being panel specific problems or faults rather than a general problem, as I certainly for sure, should have burn-in as I treat my B6 far more harshly.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
One person is an anomaly, not the rule. It's terrible that it happened and I'm not dismissing it, but there are many, many more instances of people saying that their sets are fine.
Erm, that's literally one person, though. Multiple people have chimed in regarding this, saying they've been 'abusing' their OLED TVs like no tomorrow with zero problems.
Like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet there was something wrong with Kyoufu's panel already.
I think I'm gonna just say fuck it and turn the OLED Light up to 100 myself, too. Maybe I'll report back in a couple of months with burned-in Bloodborne health bar or something, maybe not.
e: Bloodborne looks marvelous with high OLED Light and contrast
e2: and KH2 looks ridiculous lmao, almost too bright. Lots of bright UI elements too, this could be a good stress test game lol.
NYR
Member
This thread has been unbearable the last few pages. Sorry your TV is fucked, but let's stop blaming the technology that 99% of people have had no problem with. One incident does not effect all. My OLED has 2500 hours on it, no issues. This is simply a matter of a vocal minority plus a handful of non-OLED owners trying to justify their purchase. Sorry to paint such a broad brush but their is seriously some unjustifiable dog piling going on in this thread.
If anything, you need to be more aggressive with your issue and get LG to replace your panel. Call them. Lawyer up. Contact John Archer at Forbes who has a great relationship with LG and writes about OLEDs all the time. Do something other than talking to a chat or help person who gets paid $7 an hour.
If anything, you need to be more aggressive with your issue and get LG to replace your panel. Call them. Lawyer up. Contact John Archer at Forbes who has a great relationship with LG and writes about OLEDs all the time. Do something other than talking to a chat or help person who gets paid $7 an hour.
Compensation cycles help, but you cannot completely eliminate the problem without reducing the brightness of the entire panel to that of the most-used pixel.
What you would hope for is that the wear on the panel would be random enough that it's not the same area of the screen receiving wear at a higher rate than the rest of the panel, which would minimize brightness loss.
No, but everyone was saying that it was not an issue for OLEDs and calling people liars for saying otherwise.
Same thing happened when Plasmas were still available to buy.
It's one thing to tell people that "my usage has been varied enough that it's not been a problem" or "I haven't noticed any image retention/burn-in", and another to say that it can't happen.
Or to start blaming people who have encountered it; either saying that they're using it wrongly, or that their TV must be faulty.
Less than you might think. Stars are rarely 100% white. (note: this is an animated PNG which may not work in all browsers)
OLED is undoubtedly better for things like small points of light, but full array local dimming is much better than many OLED/Plasma owners would have you believe. A lot of Plasma owners have finally admitted this after switching to one now for 4K/HDR.
And I think that higher brightness HDR is going to be more noticeable to the casual viewer.
I agree. If my current TV died and I had to replace it with something, I would find it very difficult to justify buying a high-end LCD display rather than OLED.
But it's not like OLED is problem-free, and it's difficult to recommend to gamers when they have the potential for burn-in, considering that most games have a static crosshair / HUD.
Even if it only happens to some people, there's no way to know if you will be one of the affected few.
I have a number of friends that still have Panasonic Plasma TVs that they bought against my recommendation based on their usage patterns (mostly gaming and letterboxed movies) because people on forums claimed image retention/burn-in no longer existed, and they're starting to consider upgrading to a 4K HDR display now.
All of them have said they they don't want to buy another display with the potential for long-term image retention or burn-in again after their experience with Plasma TVs, and most have completely ruled out OLED at this point.
There are a few like me who still want an OLED display due to things like the contrast and response time, but are finding it to be a very difficult decision.
Most people like bright pictures.
If you're coming from an LCD rather than a Plasma TV, an OLED might appear dimmer than the TV it's replacing unless it's maxed out.
And there's a 25 page topic on AVS Forum with people posting photos of their burned OLEDs.
Well that's what happens when you push SDR beyond 100 nits. But that's what a lot of people like.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
I've been using OLED light at 100 ever since day one and think I have this TV for two months now. But that being said, my living room where the TV is is very bright. I always have the curtains open and in general it's a really bright room. 35 is not good enough for me.
So far with gaming it's all good. It's with things like Xbox dash, YouTube app, Crunchyroll app, Netflix app with some very bright pictures where it shows IR quite fast. But it's also gone in less than a minute.
I don't know I have an EC9300 that is around 2.5 years old now, still no signs of burn-in (checked against a grey screen). This was one of the first gen OLEDs too.
My newer C6 is also fine. I keep the OLED light on both qute low though, around 40-50. Anything higher is too bright for me as I generally use the TVs in a dim/dark room. Primarly use the EC9300 for general TV watching, and the C6 for gaming. Have put in 100s of hours of Zelda on the C6 with no burn in effects.
Although it sucks that people are running into the issue, it would not put me off from buying an OLED again. The benefits of OLED outweigh any risks to me.
My newer C6 is also fine. I keep the OLED light on both qute low though, around 40-50. Anything higher is too bright for me as I generally use the TVs in a dim/dark room. Primarly use the EC9300 for general TV watching, and the C6 for gaming. Have put in 100s of hours of Zelda on the C6 with no burn in effects.
Although it sucks that people are running into the issue, it would not put me off from buying an OLED again. The benefits of OLED outweigh any risks to me.