LG don't cover burn-in or image retention anywhere in the world. They class it as "accidental damage".
I don't think any OLED TV manufacturer covers burn-in in their warranty.
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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED
- Thread starter BumRush
- Start date
LG don't cover burn-in or image retention anywhere in the world. They class it as "accidental damage".
I don't think any OLED TV manufacturer covers burn-in in their warranty.
I know that you did, everyone drank the "OLED is perfectly ok nowadays" kool aid once in their life me included... i can only hope that with time people get much more cautious when suggesting this tech.
GinoFelino
Member
Hm, that's discouraging. Some retailers offer a more extensive warranty, I might look into that, then. Thanks.
TheBoss1
Member
Honestly, you could have kept this to yourself and continued to defend the tech like a fanboy but instead you came straight. Respect.
At least you it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb in most content. Right?
Yeah, it's not bad in most content and a non-factor for movies since letterboxing hides it. My eyes are so rarely ever on the corner of the screen that I think is the reason why it took so long for me to notice it. Usually I'm focused on the centre of the screen.
I've seen multiple burned in netflix logos, the battlefront hud, persona 5. Seems to be static yellow or red can cause perma burn in pretty quickly.
Wonder if CNN's logo would cause it too? I've been watching a lot of CNN lately and I can't even see any retention from the logo which is red/white.
I say 40 for the first 100 hours then whatever you want afterwards. Note that HDR will be at maximum brightness.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I mean, Kyoufu, you don't ever see that in content do you? Is it really an issue if it only shows on a pure red slate?
it's why I tell OLED folks not to look at grayscale patterns too - there will be some uniformity issues, best you don't know where they are.
if you can't see it in content, it's not an issue
it's why I tell OLED folks not to look at grayscale patterns too - there will be some uniformity issues, best you don't know where they are.
if you can't see it in content, it's not an issue
I bought mine through amazon for this reason. Extended warranty is like $80 for 3 years......Best Buy.....it's like $300 for 2 years
To avoid burn in as well. Play a movie or some type of movie content for at least 30 minutes after an extended gaming session. It will help. Those with this years model at least can pixel refresher to even further prevent the issue. Which you could also run after every game session if you wish when you are done using the TV
They know burn in was an issue, pixel refresh basically makes burn in worry null for the most part
Sanctuary
Member
That really sucks, but as someone who was repeatedly told how burn in was "no longer a thing" with plasmas in 2009, and ending up with permanent burn in of SF4 meters at the bottom (as well as six months of six MvC3 bars at the top after only four hours in training), I never for a second believed that OLEDs were going to be 100% burn in proof. With any game that has a dynamic HUD, I always set it to shut off when out of combat, and for any game that has a noisy and static one, I limit my playing time to a few hours at most in between regular video viewing.
However, you can still have permanent burn in and not be able to notice it with normal viewings of media or playing games depending on the TV I guess. You can clearly see the health bars on my plasma when I first hit the dashboard of the PS3/PS4, but you can't see them at all once a full screen image appears.
I just don't get that argument. If you watch movies in a completely dark room, you don't want to be looking at a screen that bright. When it gets so bright that it's annoying, it's no longer an enhancement, but a hindrance. Now maybe nits could be bumped up on OLEDs, but they don't need to be 4K nits or whatever. I like having good vision in my old age. Also, for now I'll gladly take the better overall contrast than perfect HDR with worse contrast.
Heh. As I don't really watch any HDR content all that much (I have, but am diving in full on in October, but it's audio related), and only played a few games with it, I've had my backlight permanently at 40 for most content since I got it a year ago, since that's the most comfortable viewing level with the contrast near max. The only time it's higher is during HDR gaming, but my eyes start burning after a few hours, so I can't play more than four hours at most without stopping.
The weird blotch on top of the N is noticeable (albeit very barely) when watching football (green grass pitch).
And very noticeable on red/purple/yellow backgrounds.
It's not a huge deal but it is there and concerning that it can happen. Thankfully it's in the corner of the screen and not in the centre otherwise it'd be a big, big problem.
I'm going to reluctantly resub to Netflix in October for Stranger Things 2...
2016 models have that feature too under a different name called "Clear Panel Noise".
And very noticeable on red/purple/yellow backgrounds.
It's not a huge deal but it is there and concerning that it can happen. Thankfully it's in the corner of the screen and not in the centre otherwise it'd be a big, big problem.
I'm going to reluctantly resub to Netflix in October for Stranger Things 2...
2016 models have that feature too under a different name called "Clear Panel Noise".
Thanks!
vpance
Member
Man what kind of black magic was Pioneer doing with the Kuros to not have any burn in issues? That was the only emissive display I knew of that never even had retention probs even after an hours or more of static images. Though maybe it too would have if they got as bright as OLEDs do now.
Never goin back to that retention life. I got used to managing it with my Panny but I sometimes I was doing stuff like dimming the TV to 10%, purposely enlarging the screen to cut off news logos, or turning it off if I had to step away for 5 mins. Just dumb OCD stuff.
Never goin back to that retention life. I got used to managing it with my Panny but I sometimes I was doing stuff like dimming the TV to 10%, purposely enlarging the screen to cut off news logos, or turning it off if I had to step away for 5 mins. Just dumb OCD stuff.
It sounds like it could be a good idea to take the old plasma route and avoid static, high contract content with high OLED light for the first couple hundred hours.
Regarding the later Panasonic plasmas, my mom's has pretty significant burn-in. It's a DirecTV logo from a menu of some sort that gets displayed a lot. The screen save is activated, so it's just from being used so frequently. In comparison, I abused the heck out of my Pioneer plasma and it never did have any issues. Of course my main board is dead and it's a $900 replacement (just for the part), so there's that. I wish I could justify fixing it, but a whole new 2016 E6 was like $1600.
Edit: I have my old Kuro sitting behind my OLED on the stand like some kind of hoosier. It drives my wife nuts but I keep thinking I'll come up with a way to revive it, and I don't have anyplace to stick an extra TV. Edit again: If anyone has a problematic 8G Kuro that might have a board that would fit my 5010, drop me a line. Mine has very low hours on the panel but has electronics issues. Perhaps someday I'll locate some scrapyard parts.
I want to live in an alternate reality where Pioneer is still kicking out displays. They were so far ahead of the pack when they quit, there's no telling what we'd be watching today.
Regarding the later Panasonic plasmas, my mom's has pretty significant burn-in. It's a DirecTV logo from a menu of some sort that gets displayed a lot. The screen save is activated, so it's just from being used so frequently. In comparison, I abused the heck out of my Pioneer plasma and it never did have any issues. Of course my main board is dead and it's a $900 replacement (just for the part), so there's that. I wish I could justify fixing it, but a whole new 2016 E6 was like $1600.
Edit: I have my old Kuro sitting behind my OLED on the stand like some kind of hoosier. It drives my wife nuts but I keep thinking I'll come up with a way to revive it, and I don't have anyplace to stick an extra TV. Edit again: If anyone has a problematic 8G Kuro that might have a board that would fit my 5010, drop me a line. Mine has very low hours on the panel but has electronics issues. Perhaps someday I'll locate some scrapyard parts.
I want to live in an alternate reality where Pioneer is still kicking out displays. They were so far ahead of the pack when they quit, there's no telling what we'd be watching today.
vpance
Member
Nice to see this still pops up again and again in this thread.
Bright HDR isn't about staring at a full screen of 1000 nits in the dark. It's mostly used for specular highlights. You will see things magnitudes brighter having a stroll in the park on a nice day.
Plasma was a dead end tech, but at the very least Pio might have continued by making premium FALD LCDs with processing as good as Sony's.
At least one AVSForum poster got their panel replaced due to burn-in (under warranty). Have you contacted LG yet?
I'm really sorry for your experience. Burn-in on an expensive display like that, what a bummer. These cases do seem to be rare so I won't stop recommending OLEDs, however.
I had burn-in on my Pioneer 500M (Demon Souls alignment meter). They were more resistant to it than Panasonic plasmas but it was still an issue. Slightly.
Plasmas were only a dead end because of efficiency. Otherwise they were far ahead, and are still ahead, of LCDs in critical image quality criteria.
For SDR, a 9G Pioneer plasma or '12-'13 Panasonic will outshine any LCD on the market today. It will have better black levels, better motion performance, and far better uniformity.
It would have been interesting to see where the technology went.
They might not officially cover it, but they replaced the panel on my E6 that had burn in.
What did you say to them that convinced them to do it? What caused your burn in? Netflix logo as well?
I'd say it'll help your case that it's from general Netflix use and it was caused by their app. I'm not sure how they can call that abuse.
Mr.Gingerlicious
Member
Hello everyone
Just a quick question, for anyone in the know. What is the current / near future status of OLED (or similar) use in the "Monitor" market? Anything on the horizon? Or are we still in the prototype / extremely expensive enthusiast realm for the foreseeable future?
Just a quick question, for anyone in the know. What is the current / near future status of OLED (or similar) use in the "Monitor" market? Anything on the horizon? Or are we still in the prototype / extremely expensive enthusiast realm for the foreseeable future?
What I did with my new plasma TVs (a long time ago) and what I think would work with a new OLED is to run it at max brightness full blast for 4 days straight (100 hours), with either pure white noise (use a video noise generator, DO NOT use a youtube video or any compressed video, as pure white noise can't be compressed properly) or one of those color bar videos that cycles RGB bars across the screen (like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN-KIlsxxOw).
The idea is to generate perfectly even wear for those critical first 100 hours, so you don't get any unevenness magnified by brightness decline during the initial burn-in period.
You have to be paranoid though. Always download the video locally, never let the player running the video crash, and make sure nothing static ever goes on the display while you're running the full blast cycle, otherwise you will burn in the display yourself.
Just setup my 65" LG B7. My god, it's glorious!
And the extra size over my 55" C6 is a bigger difference than I thought it was going to be. From my viewing distance, it's perfect.
Loaded up Planet Earth 2 and Man of Steel 4K blu rays and they look and sound stunning. I got a new SVS PB16 Ultra subwoofer too and it's impact is phenomenal. Getting some Klipsch RP-280FAs in a few days to add Atmos functionality as well. Can't wait!
And the extra size over my 55" C6 is a bigger difference than I thought it was going to be. From my viewing distance, it's perfect.
Loaded up Planet Earth 2 and Man of Steel 4K blu rays and they look and sound stunning. I got a new SVS PB16 Ultra subwoofer too and it's impact is phenomenal. Getting some Klipsch RP-280FAs in a few days to add Atmos functionality as well. Can't wait!
Your run in with oled reminds me of the expensive run in I had with my panny vt65, I had came from LCD and dlp owning background and did everything I was told to do with the burn in issue. I somehow still ended up with sky sports logo burned in after hours and hours running the burn in tool I fought for a replacement, got one sold it and bought a w905 Sony and never looked back. It's why I went LCD again this time, just having to baby sit a tv it's not worth the hassle and I got an amazing deal on a ks9500. I want oled but until burn in is covered or a non issue I just can't go through that again.
Gorocketcat
Member
Jealous of that sub! I've got their mid/entry level SB-2000 and love it. SVS doesn't get enough love.
Enjoy that OLED!
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Goddamn. This talk about burn in sounds fucked up for sure. I should easily be over the 100 hours mark now but I have been using OLED light at 100 pretty much all the time.
I also make sure to never let things that easily create IR to be displayed for too long. Luckily the Xbox dims the screen after a while and the Netflix app enables a screensaver pretty soon. But after reading that about Netflix I'm not gonna let it stay on the main menu any longer. From now on whenever I take a break or pause a show/movie I'll turn it off. Or I could enabled a unused input and it will display backgrounds of a dog, mountains etc.
So the small logo on the lower right side has burned in?
That being said it's fucking ridiculous that a TV of this budget suffers from something like that. Something you had with plasma and it should be a thing of the past. And I don't get it, my EC9300 didn't have this at all.
Edit
I tested two red test backgrounds, one a bit dark red and the other bright red and I didn't see any IR or burn in. So that's a damn relief. Been playing lots of Borderlands 2 yesterday and it didn't create any IR. So let's hope developers will never start to make games with overly bright HUDs.
I also make sure to never let things that easily create IR to be displayed for too long. Luckily the Xbox dims the screen after a while and the Netflix app enables a screensaver pretty soon. But after reading that about Netflix I'm not gonna let it stay on the main menu any longer. From now on whenever I take a break or pause a show/movie I'll turn it off. Or I could enabled a unused input and it will display backgrounds of a dog, mountains etc.
So the small logo on the lower right side has burned in?
That being said it's fucking ridiculous that a TV of this budget suffers from something like that. Something you had with plasma and it should be a thing of the past. And I don't get it, my EC9300 didn't have this at all.
Edit
I tested two red test backgrounds, one a bit dark red and the other bright red and I didn't see any IR or burn in. So that's a damn relief. Been playing lots of Borderlands 2 yesterday and it didn't create any IR. So let's hope developers will never start to make games with overly bright HUDs.
I just don't think most owners cared to check, or were being honest about it if they did, when they were so expensive. A lot of people with Kuros seem to be in denial about many of the issues those displays had.
I had the Bioshock HUD burned in permanently on one of my Kuros the first day I got it after playing it for 2-3 hours, despite keeping the contrast down around 15.
I had three different Kuros (4270 / 5080 / KRP-500M) and they all had problems with it.
Most Kuros that are used to watch a lot of letterboxed movies end up developing a wear pattern like this:
I never had to deal with image retention or burn-in on any direct-view CRT from the mid-'90s onward. Possibly earlier than that.
Around that time, I can't think of seeing it on any consumer display; only commercial displays at airports or arcade machines which displayed the same static images the entire time they were switched on.
Rear/Front projection was prone to burn, but only due to how much brighter those tubes were being driven.
It is frustrating. OLED has some big advantages as far as contrast and response time are concerned, but the possibility of image retention/burn is not something I want to deal with again, especially when you combine that with limited brightness. (meaning that you will be driving them closer to 100% more of the time)
I really hope Panasonic does something with those 1,000,000:1 IPS panels outside of commercial applications, because that seems like the only thing on the horizon which could compete right now.
jellies_two
Member
From a 2017 lecture:
http://www.ncflexe.in/data/shortcource-2017-lectures/OLED-Lighting.pdf
This 100 hour thing I'm not sure is real. There is degradation over time but the curve is relatively flat. Samsung have said previously their proven lifetime is 30k hours for blue to half luminance and are quoting 100,000 hours now. 100 is a tiny slice of both of those and the luminance reduction curve is not shown as falling dramatically at the first then slowly - don't forget it has 100k hours to travel so 100 is really no distance at all.
From the graph above right the time from 100% to 97% luminance is like ~5% of the time to 50% initial luminance.
which means 30k * 0.05 = 1500 hours and that's just a 3% luminance drop.
100 hours maybe has been imported from plasma panel life curves.
BTW I for one didn't realise that OLED is like 1/3rd as efficient as LED. Explains why the LG panel power sticker shows quite a bit more power used per year than my older Sony Bravia did.
http://www.ncflexe.in/data/shortcource-2017-lectures/OLED-Lighting.pdf
This 100 hour thing I'm not sure is real. There is degradation over time but the curve is relatively flat. Samsung have said previously their proven lifetime is 30k hours for blue to half luminance and are quoting 100,000 hours now. 100 is a tiny slice of both of those and the luminance reduction curve is not shown as falling dramatically at the first then slowly - don't forget it has 100k hours to travel so 100 is really no distance at all.
From the graph above right the time from 100% to 97% luminance is like ~5% of the time to 50% initial luminance.
which means 30k * 0.05 = 1500 hours and that's just a 3% luminance drop.
100 hours maybe has been imported from plasma panel life curves.
BTW I for one didn't realise that OLED is like 1/3rd as efficient as LED. Explains why the LG panel power sticker shows quite a bit more power used per year than my older Sony Bravia did.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I'm not sure if this is a dumb question or not, but what happens if you run a DV source to a DV-capable TV through a receiver that DOESN'T support DV? Would the DV data still pass through, or would it get stripped?
GinoFelino
Member
Pretty sure it gets stripped.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Hmm, yeah. I'm looking at the Sony STR-DN1080, and it is getting a FW update to add DV support, but I can't figure out whether that also means it will pass it through to the TV. Although, really, what else would it mean? What else is the receiver gonna do with it?
That is interesting. The thing is the lifetime to 50% brightness thing has always been kind of a red-herring to me.
The problem is if one OLED pixel is at 100% luminance, and the one next to it is 97% luminance, that's like having a pixel at 255,255,255 and the pixel next to it at 247,247,247.
Try going into paint and draw a rectangle with color 255,255,255 and then draw another rectangle with color 247,247,247. Or pick any two other colors that differ by 8 and see if you can tell the difference. Even on a pretty shitty monitor you should be able to see that the two colors are different.
In fact on any good monitor you should be able to see the difference between 253,253,253 and 255,255,255, which is just a ~0.8% difference, which would show up if one pixel was ~400 hours further in the lifetime curve than another (if your curve is correct).
Also on AVSforum, there's a guy saying the problem with red/orange/yellow burn-in on the LG OLEDs is related to the problem that to display a yellow or red that is perceptually the same brightness as, say, blue, you have to drive the red and green subpixels much harder than the blue subpixel. This could account for all the instances we're seeing of specific red/orange/yellow burn-in on the LG OLED panels (like Kyoufu's).
Another interesting point on your slide is about the acceleration of wear due to temperature/RH. One thing I noticed about my old plasma TVs is that they have tons of fans on the back to cool them and ABL to dim the screen when they display an all white test frame -- Panasonic 65VT30 dissipates 300W+ and my first plasma (NEC 50MP1) went up to 565W (!!) so limiting peak panel power consumption and active cooling is pretty much critical.
The LG OLEDs are all super thin and have no active cooling. Could it be that this is allowing the OLEDs to reach temperatures where they experience accelerated wear? And also one of the reasons they have ABL enabled which dims the screen after a few seconds when showing frame that uses peak brightness?
Anyway, the more I read about this, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that I just don't want an OLED.
Sanctuary
Member
And it's nice to see that those replying still think those mentioning it don't know how HDR works (again). There's also a huge difference between already being outside where it's bright, where your eyes have been adjusted for a good while, and being in a dark room with a movie that's mostly been at a decent overall level and it sudden wants you to look at an ultry shiny reflection, or even the sun. It's not that different from waking up in the day in a completely dark room and then pulling back the shades or turning on a bright light. Or worse, someone shining a flashlight in your face in the middle of the night. OLEDs are already overall way brighter than what plasmas were, even at a dimmer viewing level. Eye strain is real with prolonged exposure to HDR content without some kind of biased lighting, and this is with sets that are considered to have "poor" nit levels.
Also, still not worried about the HDR capability of OLEDs right now, even if there might be room for improvement.
https://www.lifewire.com/understanding-nits-lumens-brightness-4125499
IMO, OLED needs to drastically improve above black levels prior to wasting time on HDR. The 1% - 10% range isn't that great yet. You can kind of get around this in the advanced settings, but you're still not ending up with an accurate picture, only something that is perceived to look closer to how it should.
Hmm, this sounds like it makes sense, though then again, it's not like I really know anything about these things lol.
I've actually gotten pretty used to OLED Light being at the 30-40 range already, so I guess I might as well stick to those lower numbers whenever I'm playing a non-HDR video game or watching SDR content with static elements (like let's plays with face cams or something). It's gonna be dark around the day soon in Finland anyway lol.
I'll keep bumping it up to 100 whenever I'm watching a show or a movie (HDR or not) or playing a HDR game, though. If burn-in happens, it happens. That's not to say I won't try and be careful, of course - I'll try to take breaks from games with static and bright HUDs to do the pixel refreshing thing etc.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Kyoufu
Do you have the 6 or 7 series of OLED?
I did some checking and the Netflix logo on the lower right side of the screen doesn't appear when I pause a show/movie and seems to only show when you're in the show/movie selection screen. Netflix should simply get rid of that or at least make it less bright.
It's odd because it doesn't even seem all that extremely bright, certainly not compared to some things on YouTube app, Xbox One dashboard, Crunchyroll etc. What a damn shame man.
Do you have the 6 or 7 series of OLED?
I did some checking and the Netflix logo on the lower right side of the screen doesn't appear when I pause a show/movie and seems to only show when you're in the show/movie selection screen. Netflix should simply get rid of that or at least make it less bright.
It's odd because it doesn't even seem all that extremely bright, certainly not compared to some things on YouTube app, Xbox One dashboard, Crunchyroll etc. What a damn shame man.
jellies_two
Member
maybe but I would be interested to see some paper showing there is a dramatic first 100 hours sensitivity that requires some special caution.
There are three scenarios
1. Don't worry
2, worry about it always, at least a bit
3. Worry more in the first few weeks of use, then stop
There are three scenarios
1. Don't worry
2, worry about it always, at least a bit
3. Worry more in the first few weeks of use, then stop
guitarguy316
Member
I still don't understand how that Netflix logo was on long enough. I opened the Netflix app on my E6 and I see it in the Lower right corner when browsing. But once you play a movie it goes away. Even if you stay on the browsing screen too long without moving, the lg fireworks screensaver kicks in.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
Yeah I don't get it either but I'm not gonna risk anything. No more fireworks screensaver for me from now on, even if it does enable pretty soon.
It does sound like Kyoufu's TV was already faulty or something.
Or maybe s/he was very drunk and very indecisive one night and just browsed Netflix for hours on end.
jellies_two
Member
I tried to demonstrate 4k uhd to a friend and it was quite unimpressive because youtube or my isp was having a slower day so youtube downgraded to less than 1080p, and stubbornly wouldn't go higher..
Playing short videos whose only reason to EXIST is to stream in 4k and they won't even pause to buffer --- ugh.
Playing short videos whose only reason to EXIST is to stream in 4k and they won't even pause to buffer --- ugh.
holygeesus
Banned
I'm wondering if his compensation cycle isn't kicking in for some reason.
Kyofu - have you ever been in the service menu? Perhaps you disabled it in there accidentally? You can test by leaving a USB stick in the TV when you turn it off. If the LED on the drive stays on for a while after switching off the TV, the compensation cycle is running.
I guess I have just been lucky with mine, as I have hammered it since owning. Gaming especially, as I have it calibrated to eye-popping brightness (OLED Light is maxed out) and have HUDs etc on screen with no ill effects. I don't even have pixel shift on. And I speak as someone who managed to burn-in a Pioneer Kuro too (Sky Sports logo in that case)
In other news, B6 owners with be pleased to hear that the next firmware definitely enables HLG. The Russian version is out there unofficially as is the norm with B6 firmware releases.
I've been trying to understand this as well but come up with no reasonable explanation.
I consider this to be a freak occurrence because I've never had the Netflix browse screen up for longer than maybe 15 minutes at a time when trying to look for something to watch which wasn't often either. Weird!
I've done so much heavy gaming on this E6 that I'm baffled that a Netflix logo would burn in but not a game HUD or even the CNN logo which I think is pretty common on plasma TVs with burn in.
Nope, I don't have the tools required to access the service menu. The only thing I'd probably change in the menu would be comp cycles from 4 hours to 2 hours if I had access to it.
It's typical urban legend nonsense from AV enthusiasts, where they immediately accept some pseudo-scientific theory from a random person over the judgment of the engineers actually designing the products.
