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[soul]

Soul, the more you post about this situation, the more it shows you don't understand anything about it. Quit while you're ahead.

Please show me your wisdom, mind you? Correct my errors.

I really don't, lots of awful things. Besides, I am from Gaza so I don't know if you are allowed to talk to me.

Hrm.. although I'm not a jew, there are enough Israelis that keep in touch with people from Gaza. Lets just say we'll never get along in a politic discussion, though :lol

As far as horrible sights go I've had my share of shit. The world is a fucked up place.

 

[Yazan]

Mind to share?

I really don't, lots of awful things. Besides, I am from Gaza so I don't know if you are allowed to talk to me.

 

[jehuty]

I kinda see soul point, but the way he makes it seem you'd think that israel can do no wrong. I mean, when you hear news reports about how the isreali army used a 2 ton bomb just to take out one guy, it kinda makes you think. If hezbollah is a terrorist Org, then so is the israeli army. Now back to the OP.

Wouldnt you think the spanish would retaliate? I have to believe that no country would let their soldiers get shot at and possibly killed without taking some sort of action.

 

[Clipjoint]

Israel did not attack the power plants or any other important building due to pressure from France and USA, and because of that Lebanon still stands, otherwise Israel would have turned it back to the stone age. They only waged war on Hizbollah and not entire Lebanon, and because the Hizbollah used the civilians as it's cover thats what happends.

Pretty much all of this is wrong.

And Israel started the July war with Lebanon, as well as the 1996 "Grapes of Wrath" where, ironically, they bombed a UN refugee camp killing hundreds of civilians and UNIFIL troops. Which is what this topic is about - the fact that Israel is the only country that can get away with attacking UN troops.

 

[soul]

Pretty much all of this is wrong.

Hmm, how can you say it's wrong? Israel, through the entire war, did not even declare war on Lebanon at the time. It was considered as an operation against Hizbollah, which is why no Lebanese facilities were bombed, besides once when Israel bombed the airport after they had info that Syrian airplanes shipped extra ammo and rockets (note: not even the airport itself, just the runway). Only months later the PM declared it was a war, so residents of northern Israel could get money for the damage that was caused to their homes/business.

And Israel started the July war with Lebanon, as well as the 1996 "Grapes of Wrath" where, ironically, they bombed a UN refugee camp killing hundreds of civilians and UNIFIL troops. Which is what this topic is about - the fact that Israel is the only country that can get away with attacking UN troops

That's another issue and I cannot agree with you more. I think Israel makes mistakes and errors, as every country. I remember reading not too long ago that USA bombed a wedding in Iraq by mistake and killed a shitload of people. None dared say a word, and the Defence Minister only said that mistakes happen during war (can't recall the exact quote, but that's the gist of it).

 

[Azih]

Give me some examples of things I've said in the thread you believe are wrong, please.

That Israel had never started a war.

Israel has has later given Egypt all the territories they conquered during that war,

And to Jordan, and to Lebanaon and things got far less bloody as soon as Israel did. Why not do the same for the Golan Heights and the West Bank?

 

[Wraith]

Pretty much all of this is wrong.

And Israel started the July war with Lebanon, as well as the 1996 "Grapes of Wrath" where, ironically, they bombed a UN refugee camp killing hundreds of civilians and UNIFIL troops. Which is what this topic is about - the fact that Israel is the only country that can get away with attacking UN troops.

Yes. I'm Jewish and pro-Israel but the contempt that they show for organizations like the UN is something that needs to be addressed. It's not helping their cause one bit.

And to Jordan, and to Lebanaon and things got far less bloody as soon as Israel did. Why not do the same for the Golan Heights and the West Bank?

When is enough enough? What will Israel be left with when it has ceded all of the lands that its neighbors want? Do you honestly believe they will ever be satisfied?

 

[Clipjoint]

Hmm, how can you say it's wrong? Israel, through the entire war, did not even declare war on Lebanon at the time. It was considered as an operation against Hizbollah, which is why no Lebanese facilities were bombed, besides once when Israel bombed the airport after they had info that Syrian airplanes shipped extra ammo and rockets (note: not even the airport itself, just the runway). Only months later the PM declared it was a war, so residents of northern Israel could get money for the damage that was caused to their homes/business.

No Lebanese facilities were bombed? I won't debate this with you if you're going to just spout lies without doing research.

 

[Azih]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1837846,00.html

Hezbollah is based in Southern Lebanon, attacking and destroying a highway in Northern Lebanon, killing Kurdish workers who have nothing to do with Hezbollah.

Lebanon said 71 bridges across the country have now been hit. Last night, the World Food Programme, coordinating relief efforts, said bombing of the highway north of Beirut "could effectively sever the vital humanitarian lifeline between Lebanon and the outside world".

All of Lebanon was pounded and support for Hezbollah went up everywhere because of the strikes, even outside of their traditional base of support in Shite Southern Lebanon.

Honestly dude, what with the "Israel has never started a war" nonsense as well I think you are just accepting a severely one sided narrative of what has happened and what is happening.

 

[Wraith]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1837846,00.html

Hezbollah is based in Southern Lebanon, attacking and destroying a highway in Northern Lebanon, killing Kurdish workers who have nothing to do with Hezbollah.



All of Lebanon was pounded and support for Hezbollah went up everywhere because of the strikes, even outside of their traditional base of support in Shite Southern Lebanon.

Honestly dude, what with the "Israel has never started a war" nonsense I think you are just accepting a severely one sided narrative.

You might want to point out that that article is well over a year old to avoid this going further off topic.

 

[soul]

That Israel had never started a war.

That was already debated on the first page, I won't get into it again.

And to Jordan, and to Lebanaon and things got far less bloody as soon as Israel did. Why not do the same for the Golan Heights and the West Bank

A lot of the West Bank was also returned to the Palestinians, if you can't recall, as around one or two years ago Israel transferred 15,000 people out of their homes and gave the Palestinians control of the land. Nowadays the Palestinians only use those lands in order to shoot rockets even farther into Israel.

About Syria, that's a whole different topic.

No Lebanese facilities were bombed? I won't debate this with you if you're going to just spout lies without doing research.

Show me examples and I will stand corrected.

 

[Tamanon]

Look, the US knows full well that "preemptive attack" is just a phrase used to justify starting a war. It doesn't change the fact that you actually start it.

 

[blanky]

That's weird coincidence I just finished watching Beaufort

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I doubt any country in the world would stand aside while terrorists arm themselfs next to the border.

This doesn't excuse the itchy triggerfingers on the side of the Israeli military. Besides, Hezbollah's recent actions seem determined to tempt armed response as a aim of victory anyways, so attacking a neutral force is nuts.

If the shit hit the fan, they could go around.

 

[Clipjoint]

Show me examples and I will stand corrected.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08225712.htm

- Israeli bombing hit bridges, roads, airport runways, ports, factories, power and water networks, and military installations, as well as Beirut's southern suburbs and towns and villages in the south and the eastern Bekaa Valley.

* ENVIRONMENT - Up to 15,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil spilled onto Lebanon's coast after Israel bombed a power station south of Beirut, causing a major ecological crisis. U.N. experts said a swift clean-up had limited damage to marine life.

* CLUSTER BOMBS - The United Nations says at least 929 Israeli cluster bomb strikes contaminated an area of 37 million square metres (400 million square feet). The cluster bombs and other unexploded ordnance have killed 30 people and wounded 209 since the war. De-miners have made safe 122,500 of an estimated 1 million cluster bomblets. They expect to clear all areas where cluster bombs have a direct impact on civilian life by end-2007.

Is that enough, or do you need pictures too?

 

[Azih]

When is enough enough? What will Israel be left with when it has ceded all of the lands that its neighbors want? Do you honestly believe they will ever be satisfied?

Egypt was satisfied with the Sinai, Jordan was satisfied with the Aravah, and with Syria being strongly centrally controlled, a similar deal can be easily reached with the Golan.

In Southern Lebanon the bloody fighting dropped like a rock as soon as Israel withdrew. If Israel reaches a deal with *Hezbollah* than that border will be as secure as the Jordanian and Egyptian one. See the difference with Lebanon is that it isn't strongly controlled by the government at all, in that situation making a deal with the Lebanese government is laughably useless. Believe it or not Nasrallah is someone who can be talked with, not that Israel has ever tried.

The West Bank, along with the Gaza Strip is heavily complicated by the fact that Palestine is unique in that it really has no non Israeli controlled borders with the outside world. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon control their own borders and so can run a normal economy. Without Control of the borders Palestine is at best a client state dependent on what Israel lets through the border.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Israelis are cool, The Art school i went to was full of em foreign student program(dated one )

i do question Israel's Motives when it comes to the Territory problem. I think they want(wanted) West Bank and Gaza for themselves. The right wing over there made themselves clear on that issue, but when the government continues to build settlements on disputed territory, Building a Wall(its there right) but right in the disputed territory essentially take more land, and "Giving Gaza Back" after Hamas clearly controlled the strip, which they helped happen in many ways(and i keep wondering why was'nt it offered at Camp David in a similar manner if it was so right). Since Rabin, i dont see an Israeli politician that seriously was ready to conside shit like that.

You have 2 sides that really REFUSE to conside certain things. The Palestinians gotta get it through there heads That unless you WANNA kill what....4? 6..7 million people, "right of Return" has to be redefined. You're NOT gonna return INSIDE israel as Palestinian citizens. And supporting Hamas....urrgh, i understood the anger against PLO lack of leadership, specially after Arafat, but...no. They Will NEVER get you your land back.


but hey, whatever, Lebanon is actually in worst shape:lol

...and religious States suck

 

[Wraith]

Egypt was satisfied with the Sinai, Jordan was satisfied with the Aravah, and with Syria being strongly centrally controlled, a similar deal can be easily reached with the Golan.

In Southern Lebanon the bloody fighting dropped like a rock as soon as Israel withdrew. If Israel reaches a deal with *Hezbollah* than that border will be as secure as the Jordanian and Egyptian one. See the difference with Lebanon is that it isn't strongly controlled by the government at all, in that situation making a deal with the Lebanese government is laughably useless. Believe it or not Nasrallah is someone who can be talked with, not that Israel has ever tried.

The West Bank, along with the Gaza Strip is heavily complicated by the fact that Palestine is unique in that it really has no non Israeli controlled borders with the outside world. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon control their own borders and so can run a normal economy. Without Control of the borders Palestine is at best a client state dependent on what Israel lets through the border.

If Syria would truly be satisfied with Golan, I'd be all for giving it away. I simply don't trust that it will end there.

As far as dealing with Hez/Hiz/Whateverbollah, they are a terrorist organization. I wouldn't ever condone it.

 

[Azih]

If Syria would truly be satisfied with Golan, I'd be all for giving it away. I simply don't trust that it will end there.

Syria is very tightly controlled by the Syrian central government. Making a deal with them will do the trick. It worked for Egypt and Jordan didn't it? Southern Lebanon is far more peaceful without Israeli occupation as compared to with.

As far as dealing with Hez/Hiz/Whateverbollah, they are a terrorist organization. I wouldn't ever condone it.

Lasting peace only comes in one of two ways. Dialogue or complete eradication of the enemy (including civillians). I'd pick the dialogue option myself.

 

[soul]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08225712.htm



Is that enough, or do you need pictures too?

Then I indeed stand corrected regarding this matter.

 

[Yazan]

That was already debated on the first page, I won't get into it again.



A lot of the West Bank was also returned to the Palestinians, if you can't recall, as around one or two years ago Israel transferred 15,000 people out of their homes and gave the Palestinians control of the land. Nowadays the Palestinians only use those lands in order to shoot rockets even farther into Israel.

You left Gaza and took more of the West Bank.

 

[soul]

You left Gaza and took more of the West Bank.

You're talking as if I took it personally. :lol

Any way, ever since Israel left Gaza the rockets never stopped, but actually only increased. Hell, only yesterday 34 rockets were shot into Sderot. Why would they want to leave any more terriroty if they see that's what they get by leaving?

 

[Azih]

You're missing part of what I said soul. Palestine is complicated by the fact that Israel controls all of its borders. There are no settlers in the Gaza Strip any more (thank god), but Gazans can't build an economy out of a permanent blockade, no economy leads to desperation and anger. It's not a viable state. And you've gotta see that Gazans don't blame Hamas for their problems, they blame Israel.

 

[soul]

You're missing part of what I said soul. Palestine is complicated by the fact that Israel controls all of its borders. There are no settlers in the Gaza Strip any more (thank god), but Gazans can't build an economy out of a permanent blockade.

Just recently they broke the border with Egypt. Instead of just bringing supplies the Hamas already said they got anti tank rockets, better missiles, etc. You get the picture.

They even build the Quassam rockets with material they get from Israeli aid supplies (A German magazine visited one of the Quaassam factories and got some pictures, there's Hebrew written all over the bags which they use for the rocket fuel)

 

[Yazan]

You're talking as if I took it personally. :lol

Any way, ever since Israel left Gaza the rockets never stopped, but actually only increased. Hell, only yesterday 34 rockets were shot into Sderot. Why would they want to leave any more terriroty if they see that's what they get by leaving?

What is the difference between the rockets that we are using and the ones you use? The only difference I know is that your kill 99% of the time.
I personally wish that all the shit would end, but we can forget it because of the non-existing dialogue and and a fucking American/Israeli puppet.


I support the idea of one state for two people and believe that it is the only way to gain peace.

 

[soul]

What is the difference between the rockets that we are using and the ones you use? The only difference I know is that your kill 99% of the time.
I personally wish that all the shit would end, but we can forget it because of the non-existing dialogue and and a fucking American/Israeli puppet.


I support the idea of one state for two people and believe that it is the only way to gain peace.

The difference is that Israel doesn't shoot randomly at civilians, unlike Hamas. They shoot back to where the rockets were fired from, and sometimes they are being fired from civilian buildings and other areas with innocent people.

I, too, wish all wars will end someday, although it seems really far away.

Any way, we derailed this thread long enough, this discussion will never end so I'll stop it here.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I support the idea of one state for two people and believe that it is the only way to gain peace.

Its nice to want things

/Shane:lol ,

i kid, but not gonna happen. unless something Truelty drastic happens overthere

 

[Azih]

Just recently they broke the border with Egypt. Instead of just bringing supplies the Hamas already said they got anti tank rockets, better missiles, etc. You get the picture.

I also know that thousands of Gazans went into Egypt, bought life necessities, supplies, and returned to Gaza while praising Hamas for opening the border. You've got to see the problem don't you?

 

[YakiSOBA]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08225712.htm



Is that enough, or do you need pictures too?

:lol :lol :lol

OWNED.

 

[GuessWho]

soul don't bother with the ignorant.

 

[Walshicus]

did he mean it as i hate israel or don't fuck w/ israel? lol

Meant it as in the British government's willingness to screw over the indigenous people of Palestine in favour of Zionist immigrants 'back in the day' can be rightly seen as one of the worst foreign policy actions in living memory. It led to misery for untold millions of Palestinians, has resulted in a counter-productive global resurgence in anti-Judaism and is one of, if not the primary source of tension in that region. Israel should not have been allowed to exist as it does.

But yeah, Israel has a long history of not respecting the UN or its staff. There'd be motions pushed against it... but somehow they always get vetoed. Hmm.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

soul don't bother with the ignorant.

Unconditional acceptance of Israel's actions is the ignorant position. The country has committed war crimes. You can't deny that fact.

 

[SRG01]

Just recently they broke the border with Egypt. Instead of just bringing supplies the Hamas already said they got anti tank rockets, better missiles, etc. You get the picture.

They even build the Quassam rockets with material they get from Israeli aid supplies (A German magazine visited one of the Quaassam factories and got some pictures, there's Hebrew written all over the bags which they use for the rocket fuel)

Those rockets are shit, by the way. Even mortars have better accuracy. Yes, the constant rocket attacks is a pressing issue, but the assymetrical response often used by the Israeli army is just... yeah.

But concerning the dialogue point: Syria would probably not negotiate Golan Heights because, IIRC, it is a strategic source of fresh water in the region. And re: Gaza, I was under the assumption that the PLO was "ousted" because of corruption?

 

[Azih]

The peace agreement between Jordan and Israel addresses water issues in a way that has contributed to lasting peace.

The PLO lost the elections because the PLO is seen (rightly) as an ineffective and corrupt organisation. What I'm always confused by is why Hamas had to fight to gain millitary control of an area in which they had won a free and fair democratic election.

edit:

soul don't bother with the ignorant.

So soul was misinformed on the issue of Israel starting wars and also about the scope of Israel's actions in Lebanon and *we* are the ignorant ones? Dude, what?

 

[Alien Bob]

So soul was misinformed on the issue of Israel starting wars and also about the scope of Israel's actions in Lebanon and *we* are the ignorant ones? Dude, what?

Ignorant and ANTI-SEMITES, obviously

 

[speculawyer]

It's pretty fucking stupid that they are willing to shoot the Israeli's but not the Hizbullah, which is getting more rockets daily. Everyday there's a new article about how the Hizbullah prides in having more and more rockets...

It is pretty stupid of you to think that they would not shoot at Hezbollah if they were shot at by Hezbollah.

 

[speculawyer]

Why all this hate towards Israel?

Thoughout history Jews have copped it.

:lol What are you trying to say? It really isn't clear.

cop 2 (kp) Slang
tr.v. copped, cop·ping, cops
1. To take unlawfully or without permission; steal. See Synonyms at steal.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/copped+off

 

[Tamanon]

"copped it" is slang for taking flak.

 

[speculawyer]

When is enough enough? What will Israel be left with when it has ceded all of the lands that its neighbors want? Do you honestly believe they will ever be satisfied?

If they were to go back to the '67 boundaries with a few modifications, they would then have a much stronger moral authority and they wouldn't get criticized nearly as much.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Some part of me would love to see the international fallout if Israeli soldiers opened fire on a UN peacekeeping force. I can just imagine how they and the US would try and smooth it over, how low down the blame would fall and so on. Its inconscionable that they'd even make the threat. I can't believe anyone would defend them in doing so..

 

[speculawyer]

Some part of me would love to see the international fallout if Israeli soldiers opened fire on a UN peacekeeping force. I can just imagine how they and the US would try and smooth it over, how low down the blame would fall and so on. Its inconscionable that they'd even make the threat. I can't believe anyone would defend them in doing so..

I think Tam summed it up pretty well.

 

[Walshicus]

If they were to go back to the '67 boundaries with a few modifications, they would then have a much stronger moral authority and they wouldn't get criticized nearly as much.

If those modifications didn't include singular control over the major aquifers in the West Bank, then yeah. I mean it was their refusal to relinquish their stranglehold on the water supply to Palestine which ruined the Camp Davis talks. Of course, the media called the Camp David offer from Ehud Barak overwhelmingly generous... but few bothered to pay attention to the fact that the Israelis wanted to swap fertile land and key aquifers for deserts and former toxic waste dumps, while effectively segregating the West Bank into three cantons that couldn't be traversed without crossing Israeli territory, and keeping control of the most important international borders.