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[nilbog21]

Man, it's gonna be extremely difficult for the government of France to find these guys I think. They probably switched a couple of cars by now, ditched their shit and just blended in again.

i'm sure they will find these guys. they cannot be any more clever than mohammed merah

 

[n!smo]

Horrible Tragedy, I hope nobody gets hurt anymore.

We all know that there will be no protests among Muslims, because people are too occupied with their daily lives and deep down they probably don't have too much sympathy for these cartoonists who have insulted deeply the most important aspect of their entire existence - the prophet and their religion. After all, earthly things pale in comparison to religion. This is just so hopeless and pointless. There will be no answers, just a growing divide and a clash of cultures.

I agree, i just hope this cultural divide won't explode at some point.

These threads always remind me of what you can get away with on neogaf. Analyzing and condemning 1.6 billion people...

 

[ConanTheKing]

It's not about us, it's about respect for the victims and their loved ones. Even if 100% of viewers are desensitised to it, it still shouldn't be aired.

Oh yeah definitely, it's probably a bit like what happened on 9/11. A reporter was caught saying "Today is a good day for news" or something, as if the attacks were nothing more than a ratings spike. Maybe the same applies at Sky News today. Anyway, my original point is they can now get away with showing these things.

 

[Boem]

My point was that responding to tragedy with "we're good people despite having superficial similarities to the attackers" is precisely the wrong strategy to take in the position that muslims have in Europe and the US at this time. It makes the situation worse for the reasons I described. Denounce the tragedy, as their professional organizations did. When the dust settles a bit, take time for the bigger discussion.

Here's an analogy. Your buddy is short on rent and facing eviction. He's stressed out and smoking and asking you for some cash to help him out until next payday. You care for your friend and want to help him. Launching into a diatribe about how he should get a promotion or quit smoking to save money is the wrong thing to do despite both being true. There's a time and a place and when he's worried about having a roof over his head is the wrong time.

That analogy doesn't really make sense in this context. Yes, the most important tragedy here is the people who lost their lives today. I'm not debating that. But this is a politically charged crime, and like it or not, this will have consequences for the rest of the population. The reason Muslim leaders are releasing statements denouncing the crime right away is mostly to send that important message out: no matter what the murderers think or say, their actions aren't representative of the rest of the muslim population. Yes, normally mourning the victims take precedence, and it's not like sending out that message ignores that, but this is a crime that's meant to sent a message to the rest of the country - or rather the rest of the world. They want that divide between muslims and non-muslims. You can't just ignore that. You have to undermine that message for the bullshit it is. I want my girlfriend's nephews and nieces to be able to go to school tomorrow morning without having to fear getting beaten up.

Calling the people who have the guts to take a stand against the attempts to spread hate by these terrorists selfish is insanity to me.

 

[marrec]

Does Charlie Hedbo also share that responsibility? Are they to blame for what many muslims would've deemed bigoted and intolerent cartoons?

No one should be blaming all muslims or condemning islam for this, but let's not pretend islam didn't factor in some way into these murderes actions and beliefs. Yes, there's a ton of other factors too, but religion plays a massive part in the lives of these extremists and they are vocally adamant about reassuring us that they are doing all this in the name of their religion.

By all means say they have the wrong interpretation or what have you but don't trivialize how big a role religious belief plays into these acts of violence

Maybe I've not been clear enough.

You seem to believe I think these attacks are in any way justified. They are not. I said a few pages back that Jan 7th should from here on out be known as "International Draw Muhammed Day". There is no reason to kill other people because your religion has been insulted and we shouldn't bow to the violent demands of these terrorists or the insane extremism they represent.

That said, we can't continue to heap the responsibility on moderate and culturally assimilated muslims while ignoring the larger political and cultural problems that have helped precipitate a further divide between our two cultures. All of my responses have been to people casually and quietly trying to insinuate that Islam (with a big I) is THE problem that has lead to these murders and I am only trying to say that it is not, anymore so than Christianity (with a big C) was the problem that lead to the murders of multiple gay people in the 90s.

 

[GSG Flash]

Woke up to this horrific news. This is disgusting, France should bring back the guillotine just for these fuckers.

 

[Funky Papa]

Hijacking planes and flying them into building and collapsing them is a limited scope? It so odd and infuriating at times how some Europeans seems to think that the shit really hit the fan with the invasion Afghanistan rather 9/11 where these fuckers basically drew a line in the sand and dared us to cross after flinging shit all over us.

Let's not act as if 9/11 was something else than Islamist's biggest coup in history and a rather isolated event in terms of scope and power. Nothing ever before (nor after) came remotely close to that.

Islamic terrorism was rather contained until 9/11 and the following response, which made things much, much worse.

 

[UrbanRats]

Damn, RIP to the victims.

Not much to say, other than this will have very scary socio-political ramifications, especially in France, but in the whole of Europe.

 

[Lutherian]

I'm french and live in France (you probably guessed it because of my terrible Anglish), and I work in a call center in IT.

I see and read the information on twitter while my customers calls for their computers and it's a little unrealistic : customers seems to not give a damn at all, while everywhere else, everyone speaks about it.

It's terrible what happened here, I never read Charlie Hebdo but this terrible. They were cartoonists !

The extreme Right Wing prepare to speak on their official website. Their speach just after Merah was killed was disgusting, so I'm prepared to hear some more horrible things from the extreme Right Wing...

EDIT 2:
Thanks GAF for your messages of support, we need this.

 

[| Praxis |]

I think the west shares some of the blame for further isolation of a people who desperately need acceptance rather than blame.

I don't think the west is at all to blame for 12 people being shot in France. That blame lies solely at the feet of the gunmen and the group of vile gangsters they hail from.

I don't know how much more accepting a lot of European countries can be. Seems like bullshit to me.

 

[ComputerMKII]

One of the policemen killed was called Ahmed (a muslim name, how ironic) and he was 42. RIP

 

[maquiladora]

Man, it's gonna be extremely difficult for the government of France to find these guys I think. They probably switched a couple of cars by now, ditched their shit and just blended in again.

Yep, that is a real fear. And you have to wonder why they are so intent of getting away unidentified. One reason would be to preserve the ability to carry out future attacks. Most militant religious extremists usually don't care about surviving that much.

 

[Cheebo]

Maybe I've not been clear enough.

You seem to believe I think these attacks are in any way justified. They are not. I said a few pages back that Jan 7th should from here on out be known as "International Draw Muhammed Day". There is no reason to kill other people because your religion has been insulted and we shouldn't bow to the violent demands of these terrorists or the insane extremism they represent.

That said, we can't continue to heap the responsibility on moderate and culturally assimilated muslims while ignoring the larger political and cultural problems that have helped precipitate a further divide between our two cultures. All of my responses have been to people casually and quietly trying to insinuate that Islam (with a big I) is THE problem that has lead to these murders and I am only trying to say that it is not, anymore so than Christianity (with a big C) was the problem that lead to the murders of multiple gay people in the 90s.

The problem is your claim that political/cultural problems have responsibility in these attacks. There is no political or cultural situation in the world that should bear any responsibility for senseless murder. That is an entirely selfish decision to make. A situation the extremists bring about themselves.

You can't say Islam is not the problem and then claim western politics/culture is part of the problem.

 

[marrec]

I don't know how much more accepting a lot of European countries can be. Seems like bullshit to me.

We can all start by not shifting toward isolationist right wing extremes in politics based on the actions of a few bloody madmen.

 

[iceatcs]

RIP to the victims.


Really shame, we are allow to draw whatever we want. Freedom art is important.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Russia, Germany, US Condemn Deadly Charlie Hebdo Terrorist Attack in Paris

Russian President Vladimir Putin has condemned a deadly terrorist attack in Paris, and confirmed Moscow's readiness to continue cooperating with France in the battle against terrorism, the Kremlin press service reported Wednesday.

"The Head of the State has condemned this cynical crime and has confirmed readiness to continue cooperation in the fight against terror threat," the statement published on the Kremlin's official website read.

Putin also expressed his condolences to the victims' families and wished the injured a speedy recovery.

Earlier on Wednesday, other world leaders also expressed their sympathy over the tragedy in Paris.

"This terrifying terrorist attack in France is not simply an attack on French citizens and France's home security. This is an attack on the freedom of speech and press, which cannot be justified," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said as quoted by DPA news agency.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the United States condemned the attack in the strongest terms.

"Everybody here at the White House is with the families of those who were killed or injured in this attack," Earnest said, speaking on the MSNBC channel.

David Cameron called the murders in Paris "sickening" on his Twitter account, adding that Britain stood "with the French people in the fight against terror and defending the freedom of the press".

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said the attack was a "barbaric act and an outrageous attack on press freedom", as quoted in a statement on the NATO website.

Earlier on Wednesday, three armed men rushed into the offices of the Charlie Hebdo magazine and shot at least 12 people, 10 of them journalists and two police officers.

Following the attack, the terror alert in France's Ile-de-France region, which includes Paris, was raised to the highest level.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150107/1016615844.html

 

[chadskin]

Thirteen unmarked police cars with dismountable flashing lights just passed me heading south along the Quai Valmy, in the direction of the 11th arrondissement.

Bringing up the rear was a fire engine. Most of the police were wearing balaclavas.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jan/07/shooting-paris-satirical-magazine-charlie-hebdo

 

[Betty]

Maybe I've not been clear enough.

You seem to believe I think these attacks are in any way justified. They are not. I said a few pages back that Jan 7th should from here on out be known as "International Draw Muhammed Day". There is no reason to kill other people because your religion has been insulted and we shouldn't bow to the violent demands of these terrorists or the insane extremism they represent.

That said, we can't continue to heap the responsibility on moderate and culturally assimilated muslims while ignoring the larger political and cultural problems that have helped precipitate a further divide between our two cultures. All of my responses have been to people casually and quietly trying to insinuate that Islam (with a big I) is THE problem that has lead to these murders and I am only trying to say that it is not, anymore so than Christianity (with a big C) was the problem that lead to the murders of multiple gay people in the 90s.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the west is partially responsible for helping create radicals and then say those same radicals actions are not partially the fault of the west.

If you believe the west helped make them then their actions are, in part, a result of the west.

And again, yes, Islam is not the one and only issue, as there are far, far, far more peace loving muslims in the world than ones who choose violence, but is does play a role in shaping these extremists along with other factors, and to diminish that fact would be erroneous.

 

[Kurdel]

What horrible news to wake up to.

 

[Funky Papa]

And now I'm starting to wonder if this will be drummed up during the elections (both in France and abroad).

 

[marrec]

The problem is your claim that political/cultural problems have responsibility in these attacks. There is no political or cultural situation in the world that should bear any responsibility for senseless murder. That is an entirely selfish decision to make. A situation the extremists bring about themselves.

You can't say Islam is not the problem and then claim western politics/culture is part of the problem.

I'm saying that radical islam (not Big I islam) is part of the problem AND western politics/culture has had a definite influence over the continued development and festering of radical islam.

 

[Gorger]

700 or 800 years hasn't been a long enough time to recover from the sack of Baghdad?

It varies from country, but no they never fully recovered from the Mongol Invasion and 200+ years of Christian crusades. Also it's important to note that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity.. meaning 600 years less for development and modernisation despite their early period being so strong.

 

[Chichikov]

This is terrible.
Muslim communities in Europe are going to have to step up their game and face this issue heads on.
No, it's not fair that people has to be held accountable to what fucknuts who share their religious belief (at least in broad strokes) do, but that's the only way to lessen the clusterfuck of overreaction that would surely follow.

Long term, we need to dry up the moral swamp that breeds such cunts, and you can't do it with drones, you'll have to do it with education and prosperity (both economic and otherwise), it's not going to be easy, but you can't bomb people into not hating you.

 

[Zaph]

Reports saying the terrorists held an employee at gunpoint and made her enter the security code so they could get to the second floor. There was an editorial meeting going on in the conference room, which is where they called out names and opened fire.

Maybe the editorial meeting is a coincidence, but this is looking more and more like an incredibly well planned and timed massacre.

 

[Flintty]

And their scope was largely limited before setting that firecracker off by invading Afghanistan and removing the Taliban from power. The Middle East and Afghanistan were simmering and the invasion turned the heat on, bringing it to a boil that ultimately spilt all over the place.

Yes but the alternative to do nothing and allow them to grow in size and financial stature over more decades. Something had to be done. Personal opinion though.

This is one case of government assisted euthanasia for criminals I can support.

Or the CIAs 'rectal feeding'.

 

[UnluckyKate]

i'm sure they will find these guys. they cannot be any more clever than mohammed merah

merah got caught because his ip was the only one who browse the two ebay pages of the military who were killed.

we have nothing like that so far.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Man, it's gonna be extremely difficult for the government of France to find these guys I think. They probably switched a couple of cars by now, ditched their shit and just blended in again.

According to Eolas it's the BRI (Mesrine affair) that has been tasked with chasing the culprits. These guys are good.

Does Charlie Hedbo also share that responsibility? Are they to blame for what many muslims would've deemed bigoted and intolerent cartoons?

No.

 

[MikeyB]

They want that divide between muslims and non-muslims. You can't just ignore that. You have to undermine that message for the bullshit it is. I want my girlfriend's nephews and nieces to be able to go to school tomorrow morning without having to fear getting beaten up.

Calling the people who have the guts to take a stand against the attempts to spread hate by these terrorists selfish is insanity to me.

I'm not ignoring it. I actually don't disagree with the importance of the issues you're raising. I do think that the strategy you're advocating is the wrong one. To be clearer, to address that passing similarity I mentioned in an earlier post, moderates could separate the tragedy and their faith by saying any of the following,

A. We need to recognize that not all muslims are like those ones. (direct)
B. I don't support these attacks. My faith doesn't support it.
C. This is a horrible tragedy and these people should be mourned. (indirect)

My position is that saying A is the wrong thing to do right after a tragedy despite it being true because it is both insensitive (the tragedy isn't even the issue any more) and counterproductive (because it turns the current turmoil of emotions wrapped up in discussion directly on Islam). To put it another way, "you're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole."

B or C accomplish the same goal and are way more respectful.

 

[CassSept]

And now I'm starting to wonder if this will be drummed up during the elections (both in France and abroad).

If?

 

[NervousXtian]

Fucking horrible.

For as smart as we are as a species, I'm still amazed how easily we are manipulated to believe in whatever someone tells us.

 

[LQX]

Great guys. Many of them were defenders of Kurdish rights in the face of extermination by Arab, Turkish, and Persian Muslims.

Did all these men die?

Let's not act as if 9/11 was something else than Islamist's biggest coup in history and a rather isolated event in terms of scope and power. Nothing ever before (nor after) came remotely close to that.

Islamic terrorism was rather contained until 9/11 and the following response, which made things much, much worse.

Contained you say? So they undid it all with 9/11 correct? So maybe we should put more of the blame on them for turning things to shit as it should be pretty damn clear nothing, NOTHING would ever be the same again after attacking a powerful country like that. They pretty much declared war and sadly that is what they got...and there will be more war if they keep doing shit like this. Only about ten people dead but it was county wide attack on France and its people.

 

[Alpende]

And now I'm starting to wonder if this will be drummed up during the elections (both in France and abroad).

I can already tell you a name of a certain Dutch politician that is certainly going to use this in his entire campaign.

Yep, that is a real fear. And you have to wonder why they are so intent of getting away unidentified. One reason would be to preserve the ability to carry out future attacks. Most militant religious extremists usually don't care about surviving that much.

Agreed, I doubt these guys are done.

 

[Funky Papa]

It varies from country, but no they never fully recovered from the Mongol Invasion and 200+ years of Christian crusades. Also it's important to note that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity.. meaning 600 years less for development and modernisation despite their early period being so strong.

Well, Islam did have their own Golden Age, and it came way, way earlier than Christianity's, so that bit about being a bit of a mess because it's a younger religion is kind of baseless.

Geopolitics had a lot to do. Having a rather polarizing figure presiding the largest church in the world (ie: the Pope) also played a huge part in eroding Christianity's influence from government and society.

 

[Arksy]

UPDATE:

Car explodes in front of Synagogue. Unclear if related.

 

[chadskin]

Great AFP statement:

 

[ComputerMKII]

Man, it's gonna be extremely difficult for the government of France to find these guys I think. They probably switched a couple of cars by now, ditched their shit and just blended in again.

It's been several hours now. I hope they haven't gone on a plane or something.

 

[Lamel]

Savages. The prophet doesn't give a fuck about you "avenging" him.

 

[GaimeGuy]

We need to stop putting muslims and islam in the same sentence. When I criticise scientology I criticise the ideology, not the poor guy wasting his live and money believing in it. When I demonstrate against right wing parties it is to counter the ideology, to prevent young people falling for racism. I don't plan to establish gulags for them. Islam is the problem. Not muslims.

I think that you have it backwards. Islam doesn't tell people to idolize Muhammad and kill in his name/honor. That's idolatry, and Islam is staunchly against idolatry, so much that Muslims are forbidden from depicting images of religious figures. A few extremist Muslims use this to justify violence, so concerned about honor and their prophets that they forget that the only being they are even supposed to worship or idolize is God/Yahweh/The Father/Allah/El/Adonai/etc.

If Islam were the problem, these actions would be carried out by hundreds of millions. Indonesia would be a breeding ground fof terrorism. And the UK and US wouldn't be peaceful.

 

[Krev]

do they not have heavy security? i know charlie hebdo has been HEATED for a while now by radical muslims...

we just need to stop drawing mohammed. these people are obviously fucking crazy, and we need to show a little respect as well to their religion..

Show respect for fucking crazy people?
Never.

 

[maquiladora]

And now I'm starting to wonder if this will be drummed up during the elections (both in France and abroad).

Of course it will. It's only going to add more fuel to the fire of the right-wing in Europe that Russia has been stoking recently.

It's just a terrible event all round.

 

[victreeb3l]

This is horrible news man. I feel so bad for the families of the victims.

Hope these fuckfaces are caught and brought to justice.

 

[| Praxis |]

Fucking horrible.

For as smart as we are as a species, I'm still amazed how easily we are manipulated to believe in whatever someone tells us.

Religion fills the void left by lack of education or ignorance, or both.

do they not have heavy security? i know charlie hebdo has been HEATED for a while now by radical muslims...

we just need to stop drawing mohammed. these people are obviously fucking crazy, and we need to show a little respect as well to their religion..

I'm sorry, but fuck no.

 

[Stereogatari]

Great guys. Many of them were defenders of Kurdish rights in the face of extermination by Arab, Turkish, and Persian Muslims.

Calm down. The Kurds are Muslims too. You are stirring shit up by emphasising the Muslimness of the oppressors but not the oppressed. In fact within Turkey the religious Kurds tend to be more extreme than religious Turks.

Now don't get me started on good old fashion Kurdish terrorism. But no no, I'll let you have your meek Kurdish non-Muslims vs evil Turkish/Arab/Persian Muslims.

 

[marrec]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the west is partially responsible for helping create radicals and then say those same radicals actions are not partially the fault of the west.

If you believe the west helped make them then their actions are, in part, a result of the west.

And again, yes, Islam is not the one and only issue, as there are far, far, far more peace loving muslims in the world than ones who choose violence, but is does play a role in shaping these extremists along with other factors, and to diminish that fact would be erroneous.

This is part of the larger political discussion and I can, in good faith, say that the murder of these 12 people is not a direct result of western policies while still saying that western policies are influencing specific cultures in a negative fashion. Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Overall in the past 100 years we've screwed the pooch with islam, but that does not place the blame of this specific incident on us.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Great AFP statement:

Hear, hear.

 

[Besthelboy]

I'm sad about these vicious murders, any murder for any reason is a loss to humanity as a whole and unimaginably sad. We can lose bright thinkers, great fathers or mothers, caring friends and lovers, a person who could of made an impact in million of lives or just one. Any life is precious and there is no value you can possibly put on a life, you can replace many things but no man or woman is replaceable. There's a lot of idiotic and unreasonable reasons people get murdered, wearing blue or red, over paper, or even writing a comic, any reason is equally sad.

There's no reason to be murdered and these crimes should make all of us look within ourselves and try to be better people. I hope that everyone pratices discretion when speaking about these murders, while it'd be great to blame all the Muslims and condemn them for their practice or great to blame America for bombing innocent people with drones, this is not the time to have our agendas discussed. These men committed these crimes and not any god, prophet, country, religion. These men followed a terrible ideal that misguided them, they went out and murdered innocent people and they need to be put in prison and need to be kept in until they are rehabilitated to the fullest extent.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Let's not act as if 9/11 was something else than Islamist's biggest coup in history and a rather isolated event in terms of scope and power. Nothing ever before (nor after) came remotely close to that.

Islamic terrorism was rather contained until 9/11 and the following response, which made things much, much worse.

its pretty simple. after 900 AD onwards the Christians saw the Muslims spreading and in the end we had the crusades for primarily political power throughout the land (as church was now a political entity) and so were the Muslim leaders.

Then came a lul where Muslim culture declined after I think 1300-1400 and west based culture begins rising. There is scaled Islamic terrorism from Inception to 1960s. that is a period of around 1200 years. even from 1960 to 1980, it was confined to Israel by people who wanted their land back more than religion itself. the most media centric terror attack first came on the first attack in WTC, then 9/11, then came the response, media had its new boogey man, The Muslim man, Jokes about the religion specifically to make fun of IT as a religion and followers became norm and more hardline ideas and actions came into play, this coinciding with rise of terrorism

it was a you poke me i will poke you kind of tit for tat where more actions were taken militarily or otherwise to mock, attack or make fun of, and the response from extremists was predictably, extreme, and its going to continue happening.

we know terrorists are extreme bred from thier upbringing and they need to be dealt with then we have the other side, a non violent but you know in those movies where we see a group of people who use their words to compartmentalize everything as one, yes those, people who judge sitting in their chairs writing comments on blogs and news sites full of islamophobia because they dont want to learn about history just that people should confine to their view, kind of like the non violent ideology polar opposite of muslim radicalized terrorists.

 

[MrKnives]

The video showing the police officer getting executed is brutal.
I feel bad that his family will probably see it one day.

 

[Maninthemirror]

This is terrible.
Muslim communities in Europe are going to have to step up their game and face this issue heads on.
No, it's not fair that people has to be held accountable to what fucknuts who share their religious belief (at least in broad strokes) do, but that's the only way to lessen the clusterfuck of overreaction that would surely follow.

Long term, we need to dry up the moral swamp that breeds such cunts, and you can't do it with drones, you'll have to do it with education and prosperity (both economic and otherwise), it's not going to be easy, but you can't bomb people into not hating you.

and what do you want them to do?

 

[Business]

No?

But only a fool would deny that the power vacuum that followed the invasion of Iraq and Afganisthan allowed AQ to strenght itself and IS to fluorish. Islamic terrorism was nowhere as virulent in the 90's as it is now, and much of that is directly related to our actions there. We are talking about organizations that moved from being terrorist groups to actual armies capable of defying entire nations and holding territories for themselves.

The petard was there and we lit it without any caution.

So 'we' should be more cautious not to provoke muslims?