BrassDragon
Member
This would be unusual, not just for practical reasons. Used weapons like that are often revered in their circles and passed on to 'worthy warriors'.
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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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This would be unusual, not just for practical reasons. Used weapons like that are often revered in their circles and passed on to 'worthy warriors'.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Do people forget the attacks in the late 60s and 70s?
They have safety to worry about. Prudence is sometimes good. This isn't even over.
Maninthemirror
Banned
More fodder given to right wing ultra nationalists in Europe to come into power due to these actions. This will not be pretty
Hank Scorpio
Member
Damn Sky News showing blurred and paused footage of one of the policemen being murdered. Gunshot is so loud.
maquiladora
Member
Why? They've changed cars at least once and have kept their identity hidden. They are intent on escaping without being identified. Without guns and a change of clothes they will just blend in.
cyberheater
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I do tend to agree with this. It needs to be done in peace and for folks to put humanity first and not keep pushing their own agendas.
I 100% agree with you.
When, however, the discussion starts to shift toward trying to blame islam or trying to castigate all muslims for this attack I find it necessary to point out that we share some responsibility in the continued radicalization of these people through our ignorant bigotry. (We and our being "the west" in large)
Cybrwzrd
Banned
The same can be said for the immigrants though. Why can't they act more French? Immigrants in the USA tend to adopt local customs while keeping their own as well. I get the feeling that the immigrants are just as stubborn as the French when it comes to adopting local customs. I am pretty progressive, but I adamantly believe that if you go to a new country as either a tourist or as a long term resident, the onus is on you to adapt to their customs, not vice versa.
My point was that responding to tragedy with "we're good people despite having superficial similarities to the attackers" is precisely the wrong strategy to take in the position that muslims have in Europe and the US at this time. It makes the situation worse for the reasons I described. Denounce the tragedy, as their professional organizations did. When the dust settles a bit, take time for the bigger discussion.
Here's an analogy. Your buddy is short on rent and facing eviction. He's stressed out and smoking and asking you for some cash to help him out until next payday. You care for your friend and want to help him. Launching into a diatribe about how he should get a promotion or quit smoking to save money is the wrong thing to do despite both being true. There's a time and a place and when he's worried about having a roof over his head is the wrong time.
We all know that there will be no protests among Muslims, because people are too occupied with their daily lives and deep down they probably don't have too much sympathy for these cartoonists who have insulted deeply the most important aspect of their entire existence - the prophet and their religion. After all, earthly things pale in comparison to religion. This is just so hopeless and pointless. There will be no answers, just a growing divide and a clash of cultures.
Spanish networks showed the entire thing, just without the audio. It was quite horrific, as I had tried to avoid watching it online.
Criticism of your beliefs is in fact a bad thing when your ideology declares other viewpoints challenging your own to be punishable by death. These people don't operate on the same liberal logic you do because their foundation for morality and understanding differs from your own.
SniperHunter
Banned
We will find out soon enough. if they ditched their Aks, they would be in the black car or nearby
If it's not "all muslims", it most certainly ain't "we, the west" either.
I agree, i just hope this cultural divide won't explode at some point.
Houellebecq is a major literary figure. His new book is very newsworthy.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
I was actually chatting with someone today about what would have happened if Iraq had not been invaded. I imagine the Arab Spring would likely have toppled Saddam Hussain.
Again, you're missing the point. If the conversation insists on slyly trying to paint all of islamic culture as extremist, then we have to have a conversation about our role in that. Also, your terrible analogies continue as you're somehow trying to say that the west doesn't have an influence in islamic culture, which is laughable.
maquiladora
Member
They hijacked another car at that point so they would have still been armed then.
Since then....who knows.
This is nonsense. The west is not to blame for this at all. No religion is free from satire and mocking. That isn't a western culture bias. That is life. Everyone, of all religions needs to expect and not lose their mind to see their religious figures mocked.
There is NO ONE at blame except for the extremists themselves.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Charlie Hebdo are left-leaning and anarchists. They make fun of all religions and all political figures (socialists included). They're anything but neo-cons like Fox News.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Just thinking back makes this attack so much worse because of what it represents.
I remember my dad buying me MAD magazines and watching satirical shows. They played such a part in my upbringing.
I still love them, I rember always admiring the European publications. When I was over there I made sure to purchase a few in my travels, I know for sure I bought a El jueves in Spain and private eye in the UK. Really great work.
I remember my dad buying me MAD magazines and watching satirical shows. They played such a part in my upbringing.
I still love them, I rember always admiring the European publications. When I was over there I made sure to purchase a few in my travels, I know for sure I bought a El jueves in Spain and private eye in the UK. Really great work.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
No?
But only a fool would deny that the power vacuum that followed the invasion of Iraq and Afganisthan allowed AQ to strenght itself and IS to fluorish. Islamic terrorism was nowhere as virulent in the 90's as it is now, and much of that is directly related to our actions there. We are talking about organizations that moved from being terrorist groups to actual armies capable of defying entire nations and holding territories for themselves.
The petard was there and we lit it without any caution.
WolfForager
Member
Sounds like it was over fairly quickly, before the police could mobilize a proper response team.
From what I've put together, the two first responders were overwhelmed.
ConanTheKing
Member
We are gradually desensitised, especially after controversies like beheading videos floating around on Facebook.
Does Charlie Hedbo also share that responsibility? Are they to blame for what many muslims would've deemed bigoted and intolerent cartoons?
No one should be blaming all muslims or condemning islam for this, but let's not pretend islam didn't factor in some way into these murderes actions and beliefs. Yes, there's a ton of other factors too, but religion plays a massive part in the lives of these extremists and they are vocally adamant about reassuring us that they are doing all this in the name of their religion.
By all means say they have the wrong interpretation or what have you but don't trivialize how big a role religious belief plays into these acts of violence
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
This is absolutely true.
This news is horrific.
An old friend of mine, a former Muslim, wrote simply on Twitter: "How can there be unity between a culture that believes in freedom of speech and a culture that believes in Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers?"
I think the west shares some of the blame for further isolation of a people who desperately need acceptance rather than blame.
I don't think the west is at all to blame for 12 people being shot in France. That blame lies solely at the feet of the gunmen and the group of vile gangsters they hail from.
stolen from reddit, one last's week cartoon drawn by someone who died today :
"Still no terrorist attack in France", and the terrorist says "Wait, we have until the end of january to present our wishes"
fuck
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Is it really worse? Im pretty sure there were more attacks back then in the days of black September and the like. Highjackings happened all the time.
I just think its silly to point to one incident as the cause or the cause above all other. It seems to be pushing a political opinion over any attempt to really dig into the history.
This problem predates it and there really isn't a starting point.
LQX
Member
Ugh, terrible news. Very sorry France. Condolences to all.
Hijacking planes and flying them into building and collapsing them is a limited scope? It so odd and infuriating at times how some Europeans seems to think that the shit really hit the fan with the invasion Afghanistan rather 9/11 where these fuckers basically drew a line in the sand and dared us to cross after flinging shit all over us.
Hijacking planes and flying them into building and collapsing them is a limited scope? It so odd and infuriating at times how some Europeans seems to think that the shit really hit the fan with the invasion Afghanistan rather 9/11 where these fuckers basically drew a line in the sand and dared us to cross after flinging shit all over us.
That's the theme of many of the increasingly popular right wing parties and protests.
Sky News currently has Maajid Nawaz on from the Quilliam Foundation - he's kind of echoing that, saying moderate attitudes in Islam are still problematic - with themes like blasphemy needing reform as it breeds the mindset which can lead to stuff like this.
It's not about us, it's about respect for the victims and their loved ones. Even if 100% of viewers are desensitised to it, it still shouldn't be aired.
Lol it's our fault wackos are killing people over cartoons now? Just wow
This is so awful. Animals, barbarian people. This is not making all the muslims guilty though. But I totally agree with this:
Extremists on both sides are very loud and use these kind of events for their PR. This is not about proving that not all the Muslims are guilty, this is about making it sure that extremists on both sides are not winning this war. Because it is a war in the end. Surely, it fair to not do anything because one is not guilty for the actions of some lunatics, but one must look at the big picture though and think if anything good is resulting from non action. And I include also the main parties from European countries in this discussion (who chose to avoid discussing on the subject, leaving only the extremist voice to be heard), not just the Muslims in Europe. If they only voices heard are the terrorists and right wing parties, both of them win. Unfortunately I see a strong reaction against extremism mostly on one side (at the large public level - protests and so, not the parties, again.).
Extremists on both sides are very loud and use these kind of events for their PR. This is not about proving that not all the Muslims are guilty, this is about making it sure that extremists on both sides are not winning this war. Because it is a war in the end. Surely, it fair to not do anything because one is not guilty for the actions of some lunatics, but one must look at the big picture though and think if anything good is resulting from non action. And I include also the main parties from European countries in this discussion (who chose to avoid discussing on the subject, leaving only the extremist voice to be heard), not just the Muslims in Europe. If they only voices heard are the terrorists and right wing parties, both of them win. Unfortunately I see a strong reaction against extremism mostly on one side (at the large public level - protests and so, not the parties, again.).
You have certainly chosen your fight: people concerned about the long term impact on racial/religious relations of this terrible tragedy are the enemy (judging from your post history).
maquiladora
Member
There were two guards inside and the reports say they were the first to be shot.
RandyBobandy
Banned
What a bunch of cowardly cunts
It's a fucking cartoon you cretens
It's a fucking cartoon you cretens
Why do people keep saying this? Muslims have been protesting across the world since the start of the ISIS uprising against Islamic extremism.
Look, I'm against religion. I mean, not the idea that people can believe whatever they want, but the fact that most religion is a corrupting influence that has far reaching negative implications in the political and social sphere and it's almost impossible to disconnect the way the two interact these days. If people could actually just believe what they want in the comfort of their own home, none of this shit would be a problem. Issue is, most of the time these big faiths don't keep their mouths shut.
But the reality is we can't keep saying "all Muslims don't like that" or "most Muslims won't do this." It's simply not true.
Acceptance of what though in particular? Not showing and mocking the prophet Mohammad? Mocking of religion and anything "sacred" is very much at a core of western humor. I don't see how that could ever be expected to change.
Maninthemirror
Banned
its not only the theme of increasingly popular right wing parties, its also in UK and US and increasingly online. you dont even have to look for the same ultra nationalistic theme "talk" cross streams across right wing, left wing and faux centrists, its everywhere.
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