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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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Despicable, absolutely despicable.
My condolences to everyone and their families :(

Extremists are the fucking scum of earth.

do they not have heavy security? i know charlie hebdo has been HEATED for a while now by radical muslims...

we just need to stop drawing mohammed. these people are obviously fucking crazy, and we need to show a little respect as well to their religion..

WTF
 

IISANDERII

Member
The fact that these guys are still at large blows my mind. Say what you want about the police militarization in the US but they would never make it this far here.
Sure they would, it's just that they'd apprehend the next closest muslims they could get their hands on and frame them while the actual perps not only remain free, but are no longer even being sought.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Most people (including me) are simply ignorant of these kinds of things and so they speak without having the full gravity of knowledge. I'm sorry you've been made to feel so isolated by some posters in this thread though.

most have been educated about true nature of something like the violent extremists have, so there does come a point when you realise there is only hate and no education can take on the hate until self reform occurs
 

Irminsul

Member
Terrible, terrible news. Accentuated by the current environment in lots of Europe. I await ~40,000 people next Monday at the PEGIDA demonstrations and a lot of Things Generally Going Even More To Shit™.

the Quranic rhetoric as reason this is happening is only brought up by those not caring about casualties, they want to add their interpretation into the mix to make their point, opportunism
Which might well be true for bombings or 9/11, but an attack on Charlie Hebdo? Of course there's always a long history "standing behind", but I see the trigger of this specific attack precisely in Islam caricatures.
 

fantomena

Member
Really sad and tragic news. Hoping everyone will be alright.

Also sad to see on social medias that many more now uses Islam to legitimate racism and discrimination.
 

Business

Member
It's not so simple as that. You're talking about the invasion and killing of multiple hundreds of thousands of people over more than a decade that was preceded by shady backroom dealings with dictators and the propping up of defunct and awful monarchies just because we wanted trade relations normalized.

"provoke" is much too simple to describe the myopic and destructive dealings "we" have had with islamic middle east culture.

So we should be more cautious before going all in and maybe devise proper strategies.

Plenty of experts warned America and its allies of massive risks in the event of a careless intervention. And instead of just fucking up in Afganisthan (which was already an extremely hard card to play) we went on to screw it in Iraq, which had fuck all to do with the situation and resulted into a colossal mess multiplier.


Who the hell is we? The terrorists argument of 'because western countries are democracies all their citizens should be held responsible for the actions of their governments and therefore are legitimate targets' is right? Because now that's bullshit.
 
Terrible, terrible news. Accentuated by the current environment in lots of Europe. I await ~40,000 people next Monday at the PEGIDA demonstrations and a lot of Things Generally Going Even More To Shit™.


Which might well be true for bombings or 9/11, but an attack on Charlie Hebdo? Of course there's always a long history "standing behind", but I see the trigger of this specific attack precisely in Islam caricatures.

smh. I have educated people enough here that its not. not going through the education process again. people just refuse to listen.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
its pretty simple. after 900 AD onwards the Christians saw the Muslims spreading and in the end we had the crusades for primarily political power throughout the land (as church was now a political entity) and so were the Muslim leaders.

Then came a lul where Muslim culture declined after I think 1300-1400 and west based culture begins rising. There is scaled Islamic terrorism from Inception to 1960s. that is a period of around 1200 years. even from 1960 to 1980, it was confined to Israel by people who wanted their land back more than religion itself. the most media centric terror attack first came on the first attack in WTC, then 9/11, then came the response, media had its new boogey man, The Muslim man, Jokes about the religion specifically to make fun of IT as a religion and followers became norm and more hardline ideas and actions came into play, this coinciding with rise of terrorism
.

Christianity was literally nothing in front of the Islamic Empire in that period. They were basically disorganized barbarians with little to no real power, economic or military. The effect of the crusades on Islamdom was basically limited to Siria and little else. Christianity mattered very little in the downfall of Islam empire which was first torn out from the inside by the various sects, then by the Turks, and finally by a wave of Ideological reform led by Al-Ghazzali. And this was at the end of the XI century.
 

esms

Member
My thoughts go out to the families of these attacks. I hope they can find some peace eventually.

Sadly, I don't see this terror recepricality going anywhere anytime soon.
 
There is a problem with that narrative. Even if there is a minority of a religion that actually take part in jihad, honor killing, try and establish sharia law etc, then you must wonder how many affirm what they do without their own personal "boldness" to carry it out. Look at some of the polls of majority Islamic countries. Its unbelievable what high percentages of some of these populations believe about these things. I wish more moderate Muslims would speak up but I understand them not given that its dangerous to oppose such people especially in certain areas of the world.

Honour killings aren't wholly exclusive to Islam, but you make some great points which I hope I touched upon below.

The problem is that "extremist" opinions, within islam isnt exactly a fringe element, as many studies have shown. Even if only a few actually act on them, there still a problem with the underlying ideology, one that needs to be adressed.

While that's a very good point, it's also worth keeping in mind that while people hold those views, only a minority actually act on them. We can't begin to hold people to account for thought crimes.

Personally, I'd love to see the Islamic faith undergo a reformation, but these things take time and even that wouldn't stop these kind of attacks where people use their warped interpretation of religion to justify their attacks.
 

Megasoum

Banned
Just saw that on Twitter

B6weoO7CQAIWf3l.jpg
 

marrec

Banned
Who the hell is we? The terrorists argument of 'because western countries are democracies all their citizens should be held responsible for the actions of their governments and therefore are legitimate targets' is right? Because now that's bullshit.

I feel like you didn't read my post in good faith and just wanted to read what you wanted because in no way did I say anything like that.
 
...and he loses the entire argument with the last 3 words. smh

On the contrary. Believing in old mans from the sky, warmongering pedophiles, angels, and other nonsens deserves to be ridiculed.
Thats the only way to fight an idea. Make fun of it. Laugh about it. Show it´s absurdety. There is no other way to battle intolerant ideologies other than with

Rushdie said:
our fearless disrespect
.
 

ICKE

Banned

It is a valid argument, because after a few decades there will be many areas in Europe where the amount of Muslims far surpasses secularists or any other groups. If there is no ideological reform from their side, then our society has to change and take into account the wishes of this growing community. That means many things, building more places of worship and not insulting holy figures, and also making some other cultural adjustments (more modesty).

That's just a reality and there should be an open discussion about the realities of immigration and cultural dynamics. Right now a lot of politicians are just living in a make believe world where everything will just work itself out in time and that creates frustration and the rise of these far right parties.
 

BigDug13

Member
Honour killings aren't wholly exclusive to Islam, but you make some great points which I hope I touched upon below.



While that's a very good point, it's also worth keeping in mind that while people hold those views, only a minority actually act on them. We can't begin to hold people to account for thought crimes.

Personally, I'd love to see the Islamic faith undergo a reformation, but these things take time and even that wouldn't stop these kind of attacks where people use their warped interpretation of religion to justify their attacks.

We can't hold people to account, but can't we hold a religion to account? If a religion preaches to commit crimes, especially capital crimes, should we not denounce that religion as a destabilizing element of a community?
 
On the contrary. Believing in old mans from the sky, warmongering pedophiles, angels, and other nonsens deserves to be ridiculed.
Thats the only way to fight an idea. Make fun of it. Laugh about it. Show it´s absurdety. There is no other way to battle intolerant ideologies other than with

.

this sums up the ultra nationalist argument.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Seems like the outlet is basically the french version of Fox News but with their agendas often presented as satire. This is textbook fear mongering.

But this is exactly the thing thats necessary to determine how far freedom of speech goes.
You should be able to say anything, no matter how stupid it is.
I hope moderates are able to stand behind these values without giving in to these anti muslim agendas themselfs.

"Featured a book" means making fun of it for Charlie Hebdo.

That's the biggest irony of this tragic situation, they were attacked by fanatics in a week in which they made fun of an islamophobe.
 
Sam Kiley on Sky saying they (the media) are showing the murders but are too scared to show the cartoons, saying the terrorists can scare people away from it, interesting.
 

marrec

Banned
We can't hold people to account, but can't we hold a religion to account? If a religion preaches to commit crimes, especially capital crimes, should we not denounce that religion as a destabilizing element of a community?

Yea fuck judaism and christianity and islam! (probably others, I dunno)
 

Zaph

Member
Sky News reporter dropped some rare truth on air:

"The media organisations, including ourselves, while we're publishing pictures of murder scenes, we're not publishing the images that provoked it. So there is an effect. The terrorists have been encouraged by the fact they can scare the media away from addressing certain subjects".
 
What would they be able to do if every news agency posted this picture? I think that this is what needs to be done. It would send the message to the terrorists that they can't win and at the same time would not necessarily offend moderate Muslims...
 

Gustav

Banned
Sky News reporter dropped some rare truth on air:

"The media organisations, including ourselves, while we're publishing pictures of murder scenes, we're not publishing the images that provoked it. So there is an effect. The terrorists have been encouraged by the fact they can scare the media away from addressing certain subjects".

What a sad, miserable day.
 
Well, don't judge too fast. Maybe they're not well informed on everything happening in the world. Who is? Enlighten them instead of accusing them.

Enlighten this ?

Tbh it's not hard to see why there's been such a rise in anti-Islam sentiment in Europe. Might be for the best if these Muslims stick to their own counties if they're not willing to assimilate.

Muslims in Europe are going to become a bigger and bigger problem as their population grows. The contrast between muslims and other people living in Europe is simply just too large.

I'm OK with multiculturalism, but that doesn't mean I'd have to like every culture and the muslim culture is one I definitely do not like. It's a culture that's severely off-balanced. It's too masculine and far too outdated. It's in dire need for a reform or, preferably, dissolving altogether. There's no place for it in a modern, civilized society.


They seem pretty set on what their beliefs is.
 
What exactly is a moderate muslim? All muslim's pick and choose what parts of the Quran (and Hadith's) they follow and which they ignore.

Ok. this is the 20th time im posting this on GAF. so here goes. its pretty simple and straight forward. as everyone is on this page on GAF in OT most will read this and not ask again lol

[3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —

This one verse applies to ALL verses before and after like other verses in the sense that those whose mindset is evil will pick and chose verses for the benefit of DOING evil and only those are the right interpretations that God in Islam says is right is the one that is NOT used to do any evil (The Moderate Muslim)
 

Gorger

Member
You mean those imperialists who toppled democracies around the world and supported dictators?

Democracy was an extremely uncommon word in 800-13th century, and if we're speaking in hindsight ignoring the times of how the world was back then... then yeah you can call them all that. Just like you can with basically every expanding empires who have left their mark on history.

But that doesn't take away the fact that during this period science and progression blossomed in the Muslim world. Even religious freedom was pretty good for their time, where Christians, Jews and even non-religious people were allowed to study, debate and do science in Baghdad which was the centre of intellectual thinking and science. Religious freedom was allowed if you paid an extra tax, which is one of the reason why their expansions were so successful. Unlike the Christian world who were more or less hell-bent on destroying and purging anything that might be viewed as heathen or blasphemous.
 
We can't hold people to account, but can't we hold a religion to account? If a religion preaches to commit crimes, especially capital crimes, should we not denounce that religion as a destabilizing element of a community?

It wasn't worded well, but I was responded to the comment about polls and the opinions some people hold.

We should hold people to account for their actions, not for their opinions/thoughts. The religion as a whole is, for the most part, blameless as it's entirely a matter of interpretation.

After all, if there was only one recognised interpretation and it was the most violent, we'd be facing a lot more problems that we currently are. We can't forget that over 1 billion people adhere to this religion worldwide...
 

petran79

Banned
Germany had similar censorship cases too from what I remember

http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/As-Germans-cancel-Mozart-opera-arts-world-2488340.php

Concerned that director Hans Neuenfels' staging of the 1774 opera might offend Muslims and provoke some action, the German Opera withdrew a production that was scheduled to open in November. (At press time, discussions about possibly reinstating the production were under way.) In Neuenfels' interpretation of "Idomeneo," first mounted by the company in 2003, one scene depicts the King of Crete hoisting the severed heads of Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha and Poseidon.
German Opera officials insisted they were not bowing to any specific terrorist threats. A spokesman cited an anonymous phone call indicating that Muslim audiences might be upset. That may have been enough, in a world keenly sensitized by ethnic and religious clashes and violently expressed points of view, to scuttle the production. The cancellation was promptly and roundly decried as self-censorship.


Lets not forget "Christian" incidents too

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/theater/19blan.html?_r=0

Ten years ago, on Oct. 12, Matthew Shepard, a gay college student, died in a Colorado hospital almost a week after two men viciously beat him and left him tied to a fence near Laramie, Wyo. That same night Terrence McNally’s play “Corpus Christi,” about 13 gay men who perform the story of Jesus, had its final preview performance at Manhattan Theater Club; due to weeks of protests and bomb threats, ticket holders had to pass through metal detectors before taking their seats.
 

Business

Member
I feel like you didn't read my post in good faith and just wanted to read what you wanted because in no way did I say anything like that.

It seemed to me you said we did some mistakes in the past, and those mistakes unleashed a violent response, that means if we didn't do these mistakes, we wouldn't have this violence now, or at least violence to this extent. That logically implies our western society is at least in part responsible, and I say that's bullshit.
 
Only way to stop this type of BS is for the Islamic world to fix them from within.

I'm starting to thing Islam is in fact peaceful. They are so peaceful they won't fight against their bad apples.
 

Irminsul

Member
smh. I have educated people enough here that its not. not going through the education process again. people just refuse to listen.
The thread is moving pretty fast, I can't read all of it.

Also, how the fuck do you know what the terrorists' motivation was in this case? Have you asked them?
 
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