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[spekkeh]

For the record: I absolutely agree that you should be able to joke/have a serious discussion about absolutely anything. People also have the right to be offended or disagree with me on that. That doesn't make them psychopaths.

That's what it says though: endorsing the right, not endorsing the statement.

 

[GameGuru59]

This is said in a world where no one recognizes when multiple muslims across the entire world speak out against the actions of extremists. Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed. Because it doesn't hit Bill Mahers bigotted desk, in his Robb Report, doesn't mean that 100's of thousands of muslims aren't standing against these heinous actions in their name.

But, Tea partiers get more 'crazy, omg look at republicans!' coverage, than people like my mother, or people you know that are christian, that aren't in agreement.

Fuck Bill Maher.

.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

keep the hate cycle going. lol

Educate me, then. I know you go on about "Muslim logic," and all that, but surely it can be translated to universal logic, too, right?

 

[marrec]

So basically you're saying arabic news sites are racist groups?

I wandered into the comments section of a random Yahoo News article and found just as vile shit that I will not give the dignity of posting here.

The point is, it's the fucking internet, you can find stupid racist violent bullshit under any rock. It's not specific to a religion or culture and doesn't prove inherent violence of people who read Yahoo.com anymore than it proves inherent violence of Islam.

 

[Xando]

You didn't see that they weren't dumb kids when they're dressed as commandos shooting assault rifles and executing cops point blank range etc. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just come from Iraq or Syria or were part of ISIS or something.

Yeah they definitely had some kind of training. Their stance looked professional and they knew how to shoot their AKs (semi automatic to improve aim).

 

[Angry Fork]

GAF never disappoints... A religion debate again? What's your solution? Kill every Muslim?! Do you think world will be a better place as a result?

1. News media should be posting cartoons from Charlie NOT blurring them out
2. Muslims need to unite in condemning terrorists. I don't think they are doing enough which is a problem in Europe where far right is getting some traction.
3. People need to stop generalizing. When you blame religion for acts of a terrorist group you are not much better than terrorists who hate you because of your beliefs.

I'm not in favor of mass murder based on religious beliefs so first we can start with:
1. No private christian or muslim schools should be allowed, only secular public ones that can allow religious-based material in mythology/culture courses only.
2. All churches/buildings erected should be paid for by members of that religion only, without any tax benefits or special priveleges.
3. No religious person should be allowed to hold public office to enact religiously motivated laws that affect everyone (anti-abortion, creationism in schools, anti-gay marriage, etc.)

You mention the far right in europe, but organized religion is mostly far right on the political spectrum, with some exceptions. It is used by most people as a conservative, oppressive institution that should over time be done away with, through secular education, opportunities for all people, equality, etc.

This is said in a world where no one recognizes when multiple muslims across the entire world speak out against the actions of extremists. Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed. Because it doesn't hit Bill Mahers bigotted desk, in his Robb Report, doesn't mean that 100's of thousands of muslims aren't standing against these heinous actions in their name.

But, Tea partiers get more 'crazy, omg look at republicans!' coverage, than people like my mother, or people you know that are christian, that aren't in agreement.

Fuck Bill Maher.

Maher is also referring to "moderates" who victim blame and say "these attacks are terrible, buuuut..... perhaps you shouldn't put out those cartoons and make it worse?", which is said by MANY liberals and centrists who want to simultaneously claim to defend freedom of speech while also defending religious sentimentality. We have to pick one or the other, anything else is bullshit.

Maher has a huge double standard when it comes to Israel however and ignores their crimes, so it's not like I'm defending him totally. Only that I think he's right on the big picture of religion in general.

 

[Resident_UA]

Man, what? There's a difference between being offended that someone is making fun of your religion and responding to that violently. The latter is obviously ridiculous, and what this tragedy is about. I'm pretty sure that my (muslim) mother in law wouldn't like me cracking jokes about the prophet at the dinner table. I'm also pretty sure she wouldn't even think of killing me if I did.

She's also pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, even though she wears a headscarf, prays multiple times a day and went to Mekka with her sisters two summers ago. But hey, because she doesn't agree that making jokes about the prophet isn't so bad she isn't moderate.

It's quotes like these that foster a bigger divide between normal muslims and the rest of society. Don't fall into that trap.

For the record: I absolutely agree that you should be able to joke/have a serious discussion about absolutely anything. People also have the right to be offended or disagree with me on that. That doesn't make them psychopaths.

We are talking about a "right" here. You can be extremely pissed off at this, but you have to give other people a right to act how they want to act.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I looked to arabic news websites commenters to see what they think on this tragedy.

Text is translated from google.

http://sabq.org/ohvgde





http://www.echoroukonline.com/ara/articles/228906.html



glad I left this so called religion of peace.

For your sake, I sure hope you don't read the comments on 99% of the online websites.

Internet comments are nowhere representative of anything. Using them to judge stuff is stupid.

 

[BaronLundi]

"We have killed Charlie Hebdo" they said.

No, you lose you bastards.

Berlin

Amsterdam

 

[Mysterious]

yes the minority of 1.6 billion is a lot of evil but the majority of 1.6 not being evil is insignificant. did I get that right? You have 1.6 Billion most go about their daily lives, Christians and Jews are not as devout as Muslims nowadays as they fall away from religion and go into casual worship, the only reason the number from 1.6 is showcased is because what you hear and see from the media creating the boogeyman but that is secondary, the primary reason being of the 1.6 billion who are practicing, the minority practicing are radicalists borne out of no reformations and clerics influencing them who rise out of supressed regimes

I don't think there are 1.6 billion Muslims. That number is closer to 1B.

 

[RustyNails]

I looked to arabic news websites commenters to see what they think on this tragedy.

Text is translated from google.

http://sabq.org/ohvgde





http://www.echoroukonline.com/ara/articles/228906.html



glad I left this so called religion of peace.

Ok dude, what about the million other posts where Muslims are condemning these attacks? Of course, xbashkarx starts wagging his tail at the slightest chance to condemn Islam and do drive-by sniping.

I can go on and on. Just search #JeSuisCharlie, #CharlieHebdo hashtags. Not to mention the plethora of condemnations from Muslim groups, Imams and political figures.

 

[CheDominik]

You didn't see that they weren't dumb kids when they're dressed as commandos shooting assault rifles and executing cops point blank range etc. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just come from Iraq or Syria or were part of ISIS or something.

Yep either that or former army guys.

 

[Palette Swap]

FWIW, it's very likely Ahmed Merabet was a Muslim and he won't be apologizing for his religion.

He was the second cop that got shot.

Religions still suck but the apology thing is ridiculous.

 

[TedNindo]

I actually agree with him for once. I disagree with his views on Islam in general, but this should be easy test for a moderate to pass.

I guess we have a problem then in Belgium. We just had a Belgian Imam in a studio interview say that images like that are provocative and unrespectful and shouldn't be made. Half an hour ago in an in depth look at the attack of today.

He did say he condemned the murders. But he was basically victim blaming.

 

[R_thanatos]

So did the ditch the car or did they catch them?

They took several cars during that event.

One was left near the scene ( because police ) then they car jacked one afterwards...
Some sources are saying they changed cars again.
The police are following the trail..

 

[BaronLundi]

the 3 suspects have been identified.

Leurs noms, prénoms et dates de naissance sont aux mains de la police. Ce mercredi soir, quelques heures après la terrible attaque contre le journal Charlie Hebdo, les identités des trois suspects étaient connues des forces de l'ordre.

Il s'agirait de trois hommes âgés de 18 ans, 32 ans, 34 ans. Les deux trentenaires, de nationalité française, sont des frères nés dans le 10e arrondissement de Paris. La nationalité du plus jeune, qui serait SDF, n'était pas connue.

Police knows their first and last names and date of birth. 3 men aged 18, 32 and 34. The 2 older one are French, born in the 10th district of Paris. The nationality of the youngest who is supposed to be a homeless, is unknown

 

[commedieu]

Look I agree with you that he's kind of an asshole when it comes to racial profiling, but this tweet gets to the point of the whole debate. If I were a Muslim I would be extremely pissed off at the terrorists for doing this. I think Muslims are not loud enough in condemning these kind of actions. Sure you can blame it on Western bias of not reporting, but that only means that they need to be even louder.

You think, they aren't loud enough? Because I read this comment as it isn't happening at all, which is classic with that fucking moron Bill. What muslim groups does Bill officially participate in? What communities.. Oh, whats that? None.

How would they be loud enough? Who is Islam's al sharpton so that westerners can take their word for the hive mind? There isn't a debate. There is a double standard. A double standard that makes multiple people wealthy. We are so afraid of Islam, yet one of our greatest OPEC allies bans women from driving, and all other shit that would make ISIS look like school boys. The fact is its a diverse group. Yes, I can blame western bias of not reporting. It doesn't drive any hits to focus on Muslims speaking against this. And more importantly, it doesn't speak to the goals of America's Military. Showing pro-ghadaffi coverage from the citizens, all different races, ages, and sexes, wasn't conducive to killing him. The Media is a fucking joke, and using it as some sort of barometer of feels is absurd.

Where are all the police officers in America condemning, publicly & making MAJOR headlines at government controlled: Fox News, CNN, HuffPo, etc., the actions of others? Wait, whats that? No where to be found. Perceived silence, in this system as we know it, isn't telling of any official stance.

 

[Maninthemirror]

From above...pick one.

And remember, the context of the quote and the quote itself are equally important.

1st example, I just countered this 3 weeks ago in the Pakistani peshawar attack so I am qouting that.

Let me educate you

[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.

[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.

now read it all, not selectively

Then read the commentary if you STILL dont understand and cannot interpret

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=251&region=E1


Fitnah does not mean Disbelief in the Quran in the way you believe in this verse it means way different:

Fitna (or fitnah, pl. fitan; Arabic: فتنة , فتن‎: "temptation, trial; sedition, civil strife") is an Arabic word with extensive connotations of trial, affliction, or distress. A word freighted with important historical implications, it is also widely used in modern Arabic.
Fitna (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)Wikipedia

The Shirk you mention applies to forcing Muslims to forego their faith by conflict

you want to pick another example?

 

[Maxim726X]

Stop wasting your time trying to defend the perception of Islam when the argument is about the perception of ideas within it,

This is my problem with the debate... Where is the line drawn?

If the majority of Muslims believe that apostates should die for leaving the faith, how is that considered a 'perception of an idea' over anything else presented in the the religion? At what point is something practiced in the name of religion considered secular or uncommon? And more importantly, what difference does that make if those in power share these beliefs and are willing to impose it upon others? That's the scary part, to me, and yes objectively there are far more atrocities perpetuated by Muslims in the year 2015 on planet Earth than any other religion. That would make it a 'mother load' of bad ideas, would it not?

You can apply the same principle to every major religion, for sure, but in year 2015 Christians don't burn people at the stick for witchcraft. That was a bad idea and we've kinda moved on... Why is it wrong to accuse Islam of the same?

 

[King_Moc]

So basically you're saying arabic news sites are racist groups?

No, I'm just referring to the commenters. As that's where I know to find them in the UK.

 

[Resident_UA]

I'm not in favor of mass murder based on religious beliefs so first we can start with:
1. No private christian or muslim schools should be allowed, only secular public ones that can allow religious-based material in mythology/culture courses only.
2. All churches/buildings erected should be paid for by members of that religion only, without any tax benefits or special priveleges.
3. No religious person should be allowed to hold public office to enact religiously motivated laws that affect everyone (anti-abortion, creationism in schools, anti-gay marriage, etc.)

You mention the far right in europe, but organized religion is mostly far right on the political spectrum, with some exceptions. It is used by most people as a conservative, oppressive institution that should over time be done away with, through secular education, opportunities for all people, equality, etc.

Not sure what you are getting at. Far right in Europe is also more likely to be religious... Kind of two sides of the same coin...

 

[Lime]

Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed.

Uhm, no Danish cartoonists have been killed.

 

[spekkeh]

I wandered into the comments section of a random Yahoo News article and found just as vile shit that I will not give the dignity of posting here.

The point is, it's the fucking internet, you can find stupid racist violent bullshit under any rock. It's not specific to a religion or culture and doesn't prove inherent violence of people who read Yahoo.com anymore than it proves inherent violence of Islam.

Still, the person posting it said he was glad for no longer associating with those people under the same belief system. Your equation would be valid if as a reader you would be a former racist. I think we can all agree we wouldn't associate with those in the first place.

 

[poodpick]

keep the hate cycle going. lol

Provide some context then.

 

[Megasoum]

 

[maquiladora]

Some good news from the Telegraph. Hopefully it's correct.

The three gunmen have been identified, according to French reports.

They are apparently aged 18, 32, and 34.

 

[Hanmik]

This is said in a world where no one recognizes when multiple muslims across the entire world speak out against the actions of extremists. Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed. Because it doesn't hit Bill Mahers bigotted desk, in his Robb Report, doesn't mean that 100's of thousands of muslims aren't standing against these heinous actions in their name.

But, Tea partiers get more 'crazy, omg look at republicans!' coverage, than people like my mother, or people you know that are christian, that aren't in agreement.

Fuck Bill Maher.

What danish cartoonist was killed..? And when..?

 

[Stereogatari]

I don't think there are 1.6 billion Muslims. That number is closer to 1B.

I think it's even less than that tbh. Then again it depends on how far we are stretching our criteria. Do we count all believers in Allah as Muslim? Or do we roughly estimate how many follow the Quran and Hadith in full? Or is there a middle ground?

Turkey for example has more or less every ethnic Turk (and Kurd) registered as a Muslim. But how many of those are MUSLIM and how many of those are "Muslim".

 

[gutter_trash]

I actually agree with him for once. I disagree with his views on Islam in general, but this should be easy test for a moderate to pass.

the double standard has to end.

Bil Maher is 100% right and correct. And secular liberals who consider themselves to be secular should not be afraid to criticize any religion including Islam.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

1st example, I just countered this 3 weeks ago in the Pakistani peshawar attack so I am qouting that.



you want to pick another example?

No, because you undid what it said. You added extra meaning on top of it. And you are correct, the context makes it mean the "opposite" of what was said. Which is my point.

 

[commedieu]

Uhm, no Danish cartoonists have been killed.

What danish cartoonist was killed..? And when..?

I'm sorry, he was attacked with axes and survived. I was confusing him for someone else killed over a cartoon.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/04/danish-cartoonist-axe-attack

Several Muslim communities condemned the actions.

 

[SentryDown]

Does it say how they have been identified?

No but I guess the car was their own and they also visited two flats this afternoon.

 

[Syncytia]

Yeah, of course people are more involved when it hits close to home. I would wish that people would put more attention to these things in other countries, but that's how it is.

The news varies quite a bit depending on the country you're in. If you don't live in say Asia and then travel to Asia for awhile, you will be getting a ton of Asian news, and only the huge news from the West. I was out of the states during the first couple weeks of the Michael Brown Ferguson thing and didn't get much news about it. So much that when I got home I was actually surprised about how big of a deal it was simply because it wasn't reported so extensively outside the country. I barely had a clue what had happened other than "Officer shoots and kills suspect, racial tensions and riots." That's essentially all I got when I was gone. There's just too much going on to report everything that happens and things are generally focused within a fairly close geographical range.

 

[GameGuru59]

Im a hitchens fan. But the muslim community is a gigantic one. There is no hive mind. There is nothing in the Quran that can't be found anywhere else. The Western world has double standards when it applies to what is wrong/acceptable about Islam. When we pretend its the devil, we play right into the hands of the arms dealers and politicians that gain from the destruction of human life.

Nobody said there's a hive mind, and there are tons of people (including Maher) who abhor the invasion of Iraq but seek to criticize some pervasive trends within the religion itself. That doesn't mean everybody in the religion is the devil. By the way, you're doing the exact same thing Maher is doing when you say the "the Western World has double standards." I actually agree with that. But how is that any different from what Maher is doing?

 

[Resident_UA]

You think, they aren't loud enough? Because I read this comment as it isn't happening at all, which is classic with that fucking moron Bill. What muslim groups does Bill officially participate in? What communities.. Oh, whats that? None.

How would they be loud enough? Who is Islam's al sharpton so that westerners can take their word for the hive mind? There isn't a debate. There is a double standard. A double standard that makes multiple people wealthy. We are so afraid of Islam, yet one of our greatest OPEC allies bans women from driving, and all other shit that would make ISIS look like school boys. The fact is its a diverse group. Yes, I can blame western bias of not reporting. It doesn't drive any hits to focus on Muslims speaking against this. And more importantly, it doesn't speak to the goals of America's Military. Showing pro-ghadaffi coverage from the citizens, all different races, ages, and sexes, wasn't conducive to killing him. The Media is a fucking joke, and using it as some sort of barometer of feels is absurd.

Where are all the police officers in America condemning, publicly & making MAJOR headlines at government controlled: Fox News, CNN, HuffPo, etc., the actions of others? Wait, whats that? No where to be found. Perceived silence, in this system as we know it, isn't telling of any official stance.

I know that the odds are stacked against Muslims, but there are ways to be louder. There are a lot of Muslims in Paris, why can't they be on the street with slogans against ISIS?

 

[xbhaskarx]

Gee I wonder where these extremists get their beliefs from. They must be making it all up.

No idea, maybe they're all just crazy. Maybe they are schizophrenics who hear voices in their heads telling them to do things and mistakenly believe that it's God.

Oh wait those would be the "prophets" who start religions...

 

[maquiladora]

Erin Cunningham ‏@erinmcunningham

3 suspects in Paris attack, ages 18, 32 & 34. Two oldest are brothers born in Paris. Nationality of youngest unknown.

.

 

[keit4]

Meanwhile at some place in France, Marine Le Pen is rubbing her hands.

 

[Maninthemirror]

No, because you undid what it said. You added extra meaning on top of it. And you are correct, the context makes it mean the "opposite" of what was said. Which is my point.

are you backing out now. I just proved the one verse is only used when one group was physically attacking another in persecution and you fight until that physical persecution ends or they stop attacking you. its CLEAR as day, if you don't see it. that is pure ignorance sorry. and what exactly did I undo. If a Novel says "She should use a knife against him" and that is how the character is framed until you read the entire sentence "If John starts attacks her due to her actions, She should use a knife against him, to defend herself"

 

[marrec]

Ok dude, what about the million other posts where Muslims are condemning these attacks? Of course, xbashkarx starts wagging his tail at the slightest chance to condemn Islam and do drive-by sniping.

I can go on and on. Just search #JeSuisCharlie, #CharlieHebdo hashtags. Not to mention the plethora of condemnations from Muslim groups, Imams and political figures.

STOP IT RUSTY YOU'RE RUINING THE TALKING POINTS

 

[kmax]

I think it's even less than that tbh. Then again it depends on how far we are stretching our criteria. Do we count all believers in Allah as Muslim? Or do we roughly estimate how many follow the Quran and Hadith in full? Or is there a middle ground?

Turkey for example has more or less every ethnic Turk (and Kurd) registered as a Muslim. But how many of those are MUSLIM and how many of those are "Muslim".

Well, if you're going to apply that kind of logic, you might as well apply it to all religions.

 

[bonercop]

Still, the person posting it said he was glad for no longer associating with those people under the same belief system.

i used to be a muslim too and i think marrec got it right. the idea that blatant racism isn't an issue with the internet in general is hilarious.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

No: that's an argument to antiquity.
...
No: that's an argumentum ad populum.

I think you're misappropriating logical fallacies here, I'm not using those reasons to logically deduce a true conclusion, I'm using those as reasonable foundations for including certain acts within similar legislation.

That is to say, I'm not saying:
For hundreds of years people have had a particular belief, therefore it is the right belief.

I'm saying:
For hundreds of years people have had a particular belief, therefore is reasonable that we respect that belief as we respect similar beliefs and facts.

I'm not saying:
Sizable groups of people believe in a particular belief, therefore it is the right belief.

I'm saying:
Sizable groups of people believe in a particular belief, therefore is reasonable that we respect that belief as we respect similar beliefs and facts.

("We" in both cases being a society that give respect to similar beliefs/facts.)

This is the best argument you have, but then, you can essentially afford caving to any demands of any kind on this basis. If someone says "Do X or we will kill people in your country," you must do X by this logic, whatever X is, because it can prevent a terrorist attack.

Exactly, which is why I'm an advocate for free speech and not this "we'll protect some groups from speech which offends them, but not others" that some countries in Europe are trying to play.

Again, I'm not saying depictions of Muhammad should be banned, I'm asking why these countries would ban some speech which offends groups, but not depictions of Muhammad. Frankly, most depictions of Muhammad appear to me to cross the line in to hate speech without the need of a separate law covering that specific act, if you replaced Muhammad with a stereotypical Jew or person of African descent, many would clearly be outrageously anti-Semitic or racist.

 

[Faith]

I've learned one thing on NeoGAF.

I should stay out of such threads. Best case scenario is a 2 weeks ban.

 

[liger05]

I wonder if there will be any large protests in Muslim countries, seeing as how moderate Muslims should be disapproving of this, right?

Should there be?

 

[Resident_UA]

I guess we have a problem then in Belgium. We just had a Belgian Imam in a studio interview say that images like that are provocative and unrespectful and shouldn't be made. Half an hour ago in an in depth look at the attack of today.

He did say he condemned the murders. But he was basically victim blaming.

the double standard has to end.

Bil Maher is 100% right and correct. And secular liberals who consider themselves to be secular should not be afraid to criticize any religion including Islam.

That's not what I took from that tweet. Giving a "right" to someone is not the same as endorsing them or encouraging their actions... If that's what you guys are taking away from this I don't know if I agree with you.

 

[Corronchilejano]

the double standard has to end.

Bil Maher is 100% right and correct. And secular liberals who consider themselves to be secular should not be afraid to criticize any religion including Islam.

What double standard?

 

[His Majesty]

I guess we have a problem then in Belgium. We just had a Belgian Imam in a studio interview say that images like that are provocative and unrespectful and shouldn't be made. Half an hour ago in an in depth look at the attack of today.

He did say he condemned the murders. But he was basically victim blaming.

That's the core problem I think. I applaud the muslim communities for strongly condemning these attacks but as long as they can't cope with satirical cartoons (see Denmark) in a rational fashion there can be no solution to the problem at hand.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

the 3 suspects have been identified.

Looks like the authorities already knew some of them.

Source TF1

 

[Forsete]

Uhm, no Danish cartoonists have been killed.

They tried though. In 2010 an axe wielding Islamist attacked Kurt Westergaard in his house. Luckily the police shot the Somali man before he could get to Kurt.

Also, an attack (with the goal: to kill as many as possible) was planned on Danish Jyllandsposten in 2010. Luckily Danish and Swedish police stopped the attack before it happened, arresting 5 people.

Swedish artist Lars Vilks now has constant police protection after having drawn this.

Two muslims tried to burn his house down, but were caught. IIRC there was a planned attack on him as well, but once again the police stopped that.