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[Joni]

Why has this got so much more attention than the Pakistan school thing?
didnt 200 or so people die in that?

This might sound cruel, but we're used to terrorism in Pakistan. The European media doesn't give it a lot of attention because it is not uncommon enough to shock. This is an attack in the center of Europe.

 

[Lemaitre]

Why has this got so much more attention than the Pakistan school thing?
didnt 200 or so people die in that?

Because we (as mostly Westerners and the Western media that represents us and gives us our news) did not cover the deaths of the children to the degree that this is being covered. And the fact that this is dealing with freedom of expression and with a Western country (France) that many people in America and in Western Europe know quite well.

 

[Azih]

Is this for real? Mainstream Muslims are condoning this?

This is like treating youtube commenters as some sort of reasonable representatives of humanity.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

Seems you are not thinking logically. The same faith telling the majority not to commit evil acts and the same faith telling the minority to commit evil acts? so you are ignoring the view of the majority and giving the minority view equal leverage? how does that work?

When its proven to the radicalists that Islam says otherwise and they still commit atrocities, why would you, as a rational person, give ANY weight to what the radicalists think? The only viable reason I can come up with that people give weight to radicalists is because it makes their argument relevant.

What does majority or minority have to do with logic?

The way these killers view Islam is just as valid as yours. What part of the "texts allowing for this" is not making sense to you?

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Seems you are not thinking logically. The same faith telling the majority not to commit evil acts and the same faith telling the minority to commit evil acts? so you are ignoring the view of the majority and giving the minority view equal leverage? how does that work?

When its proven to the radicalists that Islam says otherwise and they still commit atrocities, why would you, as a rational person, give ANY weight to what the radicalists think? The only viable reason I can come up with that people give weight to radicalists is because it makes their argument relevant.

Look, they killed people because of their religion. Put your hands down, you're not being accused.

 

[Cyd0nia]

Yes. Because we're civilized, we are better than these lunatics (/this lunatic) and because we would not gain anything from revenge.

I disagree. The world would gain by shedding itself of defective people maligned by defective thinking. I am all for protecting our principles, but I would not shed a tear or feel too betrayed if these people were killed today. If they are found, I hope they're killed on the spot. If they are, good riddance. To the prophet with them.

 

[commedieu]

I actually agree with him for once. I disagree with his views on Islam in general, but this should be easy test for a moderate to pass.

This is said in a world where no one recognizes when multiple muslims across the entire world speak out against the actions of extremists. Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed. Because it doesn't hit Bill Mahers bigotted desk, in his Robb Report, doesn't mean that 100's of thousands of muslims aren't standing against these heinous actions in their name.

But, Tea partiers get more 'crazy, omg look at republicans!' coverage, than people like my mother, or people you know that are christian, that aren't in agreement.

Fuck Bill Maher.

 

[GregLombardi]

Why has this got so much more attention than the Pakistan school thing?
didnt 200 or so people die in that?

Because for the first time in a long time you essentially have a direct mass attack on a media organization, and media organizations do not like that.

 

[Nesotenso]

.

there we go. now we have probably hit bingo.

I welcome your stupidity.

 

[xbhaskarx]

surprised you didn't go all copy-paste.

From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause. Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force. This is how it was understood by his companions, and by the terrorists of today.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."



Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."



Bukhari (52:73) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'."



Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."



Bukhari 1:35 "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty ( if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise ( if he is killed)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Tabari 17:187 "'By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.' And they returned to their former religion." The words of a group of Christians who had converted to Islam, but realized their error after being shocked by the violence and looting committed in the name of Allah. The price of their decision to return to a religion of peace was that the men were beheaded and the woman and children enslaved by the caliph Ali.



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 990: - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern creation, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.



Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 - "Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship." One of several letters from Muhammad to rulers of other countries. The significance is that the recipients were not making war or threatening Muslims. Their subsequent defeat and subjugation by Muhammad's armies was justified merely on the basis of their unbelief.

.

 

[Raist]

so we have two examples here where people think the radicals who killed today are following the actual faith rather than distorting the actual faith of the majority thus saying the majority of muslims in the world are by proxy, when they condemn these radicals, are not truely following their faith. SMH

I'm sorry, what's the "actual faith" again?

 

[Foffy]

Seems you are not thinking logically. The same faith telling the majority not to commit evil acts and the same faith telling the minority to commit evil acts? so you are ignoring the view of the majority and giving the minority view equal leverage? how does that work?

When its proven to the radicalists that Islam says otherwise and they still commit atrocities, why would you, as a rational person, give ANY weight to what the radicalists think? The only viable reason I can come up with that people give weight to radicalists is because it makes their argument relevant.

Nobody is ignoring the issue of a "majority", what people are telling you is that when it comes to individual validation, it doesn't mean a fucking thing what a majority or a minority think. It comes down to what one validates, and in this case, these acts upon the journalists were done from people that, in their own moral validations, were just to Islam.

You are failing to think logically by not seeing this. What you and these terrorists think are on equal footing, because there is no objective grounds for which is more just. It's all on subjective grounds, hence why you can have both in the first place.

 

[dakun]

Why has this got so much more attention than the Pakistan school thing?
didnt 200 or so people die in that?

as sad and stupid as it sounds.. there are certain regions of this world where bad stuff happens all the time and people just become used to it.

When stuff like this happens in peaceful regions it just hits closer to home. (if you leave in a relatively peaceful area)

It's pretty natural if you think about it. We care about stuff that might have a bigger impact on us and don't prioritize in numbers.

 

[Azih]

Look, they killed people because of their religion. Put your hands down, you're not being accused.

People who are pointing to 'Islam' as the cause rather than 'Extremist Islam' are accusing him of something because he considers himself (like I do) to be a follower of 'Islam'.

A little bit of specificity and precision would go a hell of a long way but a lot of posters here think that's 'irrational'.

 

[Chariot]

This might sound cruel, but we're used to terrorism in Pakistan. It is not uncommon enough to shock. This is an attack in the center of Europe.

Yeah, of course people are more involved when it hits close to home. I would wish that people would put more attention to these things in other countries, but that's how it is.

 

[King_Moc]

I looked to arabic news websites commenters to see what they think on this tragedy.

Text is translated from google.

http://sabq.org/ohvgde





http://www.echoroukonline.com/ara/articles/228906.html



glad I left this so called religion of peace.

Look at the comments page of any post by Britain First or similar racist grouos and you'll find the exact same nonsense.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I looked to arabic news websites commenters

You might as well have polled youtube comments or twitch chat.

Glad to see we're still on this 'religion of peace' dogwhistling too.

 

[Maninthemirror]

What does majority or minority have to do with logic?

The way these killers view Islam is just as valid as yours. What part of the "texts allowing for this" is not making sense to you?

This is the flaw in your argument. When my religion itself calls the radicalists the hypocrites, you want to view the minority on equal religious footing as the minority. that is hilariously sad

 

[Purkake4]

What's the deterrence for the murderers then? They will figure at worst, they will be stuck inside a cell playing videogames for the rest of their lives.

Why do you feel the need to judge how Norway is handling its (very successful) criminal justice system?

There are plenty of countries where murderers big and small walk free whether by corruption, incompetence or plain willfully ignorance.

 

[SentryDown]

Not sure if this has been posted :

The 3 gunmens have been identified

3 men, aged 18, 32, 34 years old. 32 & 34 are french brothers living in Paris, the 18 one is an homeless, supposed to be in a high school near Reims.

 

[Stereogatari]

Why has this got so much more attention than the Pakistan school thing?
didnt 200 or so people die in that?

I think it has to do with Pakistan's instability ("oh look just another day the office"). It's become expected to hear of horrible news from Pakistan.

If a horrific attack like today happened in a stable Muslim country (Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.) I think it would have been just as widely reported.

 

[Atilac]

.

Is this the part where you cherry pick passages to validate your intolerance? Because you can easily do the same for Christianity.

 

[GameGuru59]

* long post

You do realize, there are different interpretations of the Quran, just like there are different interpretations of the Bible, right?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is this the part where you cherry pick passages to validate your intolerance? Because you can easily do the same for Christianity.

And yet...

(also, I don't think anyone is defending or discussing Christianity as some positive example)

 

[Circle Jerk]

Not sure if this has been posted :

The 3 gunmens have been identified

3 men, aged 18, 32, 34 years old. 32 & 34 are french brothers living in Paris, the 18 one is an homeless, supposed to be in a high school near Reims.

32 and 34 jesus fucking christ. Cant even say theyre dumb kids, they knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Not sure if this has been posted :

The 3 gunmens have been identified

3 men, aged 18, 32, 34 years old. 32 & 34 are french brothers living in Paris, the 18 one is an homeless, supposed to be in a high school near Reims.

So did the ditch the car or did they catch them?

 

[Maninthemirror]

You do realize, there are different interpretations of the Quran, just like there are different interpretations of the Bible, right?

you dont even have to interpret, just read 10 verses before and 10 verses after those cherry picked and you get the context.

 

[commedieu]

.

You're aware that you can find negative things about any religion. Islam is no different, people pick and choose. there is no hive mind of the entire muslim world that accepts what extremists do.

We don't stone people for adultery in America, although its in the bible.

America also doesn't condemn Saudi Arabia.

America doesn't condemn Saudi Arabia.

Spoiler

Saudi Arabia

 

[HelloMeow]

Not sure if this has been posted :

The 3 gunmens have been identified

3 men, aged 18, 32, 34 years old. 32 & 34 are french brothers living in Paris, the 18 one is an homeless, supposed to be in a high school near Reims.

Does it say how they have been identified?

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

This is the flaw in your argument. When my religion itself calls the radicalists the hypocrites, you want to view the minority on equal religious footing as the minority. that is hilariously sad

And then it also says to do those same things. That is the reason why any interpretation is equally valid. If I thought that Islam is just a great pizza recipe, that would also be as valid as your interpretation.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Unfortunately Christopher Hitchens is no longer around to respond to this vile shit, but here is his Slate column from 2006:


Cartoon Debate
The case for mocking religion.
By Christopher Hitchens

there we go. now we have probably hit bingo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEcBzxoMB8

Is this the part where you cherry pick passages to validate your intolerance? Because you can easily do the same for Christianity.

So? What makes you think I support Christianity? People should point out all the bullshit that's in the Bible. Next time Christians massacre a bunch of cartoonists, please do so, I would welcome it.

 

[nynt9]

The spontaneous and worldwide reaction is awe inspiring.

London

Vienna

Lyon

Rennes

Montreal - Radio Canada

AFP

Frankfurt

Israel

Tagesspiel

I wonder if there will be any large protests in Muslim countries, seeing as how moderate Muslims should be disapproving of this, right?

 

[Xando]

So did the ditch the car or did they catch them?

They ditched the first car, no idea about the other car they stole.

I wonder if there will be any large protests in Muslim countries, seeing as how moderate Muslims should be disapproving of this, right?

We all know the answer to this.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

You don't know Seaman?

Err... I know Mermaid Man from Spongebob

 

[RPGCrazied]

Does it say how they have been identified?

Hopefully they got caught.

 

[Maninthemirror]

And then it also says to do those same things. That is the reason why any interpretation is equally valid. If I thought that Islam is just a great pizza recipe, that would also be as valid as your interpretation.

Give me one example, pick your most solid example

 

[Boem]

I actually agree with him for once. I disagree with his views on Islam in general, but this should be easy test for a moderate to pass.

Man, what? There's a difference between being offended that someone is making fun of your religion and responding to that violently. The latter is obviously ridiculous, and what this tragedy is about. I'm pretty sure that my (muslim) mother in law wouldn't like me cracking jokes about the prophet at the dinner table. I'm also pretty sure she wouldn't even think of killing me if I did.

She's also pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, even though she wears a headscarf, prays multiple times a day and went to Mekka with her sisters two summers ago. But hey, because she doesn't agree that making jokes about the prophet isn't so bad she isn't moderate.

It's quotes like these that foster a bigger divide between normal muslims and the rest of society. Don't fall into that trap.

For the record: I absolutely agree that you should be able to joke/have a serious discussion about absolutely anything. People also have the right to be offended or disagree with me on that. That doesn't make them psychopaths.

 

[Marauder Shields]

.

Gee I wonder where these extremists get their beliefs from. They must be making it all up.

 

[Madness]

32 and 34 jesus fucking christ. Cant even say theyre dumb kids, they knew exactly what they were doing.

You didn't see that they weren't dumb kids when they're dressed as commandos shooting assault rifles and executing cops point blank range etc. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just come from Iraq or Syria or were part of ISIS or something.

 

[spekkeh]

Look at the comments page of any post by Britain First or similar racist grouos and you'll find the exact same nonsense.

So basically you're saying arabic news sites are racist groups?

 

[Flo_Evans]

Benjamin Franklin once said: “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

aside, this is one of those quotes that no one ever gets right.

He said

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/

The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him. So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

What’s more the “purchase [of] a little temporary safety” of which Franklin complains was not the ceding of power to a government Leviathan in exchange for some promise of protection from external threat; for in Franklin’s letter, the word “purchase” does not appear to have been a metaphor. The governor was accusing the Assembly of stalling on appropriating money for frontier defense by insisting on including the Penn lands in its taxes–and thus triggering his intervention. And the Penn family later offered cash to fund defense of the frontier–as long as the Assembly would acknowledge that it lacked the power to tax the family’s lands. Franklin was thus complaining of the choice facing the legislature between being able to make funds available for frontier defense and maintaining its right of self-governance–and he was criticizing the governor for suggesting it should be willing to give up the latter to ensure the former.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

Is this the part where you cherry pick passages to validate your intolerance? Because you can easily do the same for Christianity.

Cherry pick them to prove a point (which it does).

And whether the same can be said about Christianity or not is irrelevant.

 

[Tribes of Trusty]

Not sure if this has been posted :

The 3 gunmens have been identified

3 men, aged 18, 32, 34 years old. 32 & 34 are french brothers living in Paris, the 18 one is an homeless, supposed to be in a high school near Reims.

Hey ! That's where I live. No wonder I've been hearing sirens for the past 3 hours. Law enforcement must be looking for something.

Spoiler

Charleville-Mézières isn't really close to Reims though.

 

[commedieu]

Unfortunately Christopher Hitchens is no longer around to respond to this vile shit, but here is his Slate column from 2006:


Cartoon Debate
The case for mocking religion.
By Christopher Hitchens



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEcBzxoMB8

Im a hitchens fan. But the muslim community is a gigantic one. There is no hive mind. There is nothing in the Quran that can't be found anywhere else. The Western world has double standards when it applies to what is wrong/acceptable about Islam. When we pretend its the devil, we play right into the hands of the arms dealers and politicians that gain from the destruction of human life.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

you dont even have to interpret, just read 10 verses before and 10 verses after those cherry picked and you get the context.

Ah, yes, the grand context that allows for "kill them where you find them" to *actually* mean "really, don't kill anyone. religion of peace, yo."

 

[Resident_UA]

This is said in a world where no one recognizes when multiple muslims across the entire world speak out against the actions of extremists. Same thing happened when the danish cartoonist was killed. Because it doesn't hit Bill Mahers bigotted desk, in his Robb Report, doesn't mean that 100's of thousands of muslims aren't standing against these heinous actions in their name.

But, Tea partiers get more 'crazy, omg look at republicans!' coverage, than people like my mother, or people you know that are christian, that aren't in agreement.

Fuck Bill Maher.

Look I agree with you that he's kind of an asshole when it comes to racial profiling, but this tweet gets to the point of the whole debate. If I were a Muslim I would be extremely pissed off at the terrorists for doing this. I think Muslims are not loud enough in condemning these kind of actions. Sure you can blame it on Western bias of not reporting, but that only means that they need to be even louder.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Ah, yes, the grand context that allows for "kill them where you find them" to *actually* mean "really, don't kill anyone. religion of peace, yo."

keep the hate cycle going. lol

 

[Stereogatari]

I wonder if there will be any large protests in Muslim countries, seeing as how moderate Muslims should be disapproving of this, right?

I guarantee there will be in Turkey. Satirical cartoon magazines similar to the French ones are quite popular over there and regularly lampoon Islamists.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

This is horrible. I'm not even going to make a comment about religion because I would probably hurt someone's feelings. But holy shit.


RIP to those 12 victims.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

Give me one example, pick your most solid example

From above...pick one.

And remember, the context of the quote and the quote itself are equally important.