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[Opiate]

That's what we are specifically pinpointing in this thread, though--a relationship between 2 adults, one that happens to be a teacher and one that happens to be a student.

And my point is that specific, narrow question doesn't have studies (that I can see) targeting it precisely.

I'd say you are on firmer ground comparing it to the abuse of power as sometimes seen in Employer-Employee relationships or Officer-Soldier relationships.

I have made a wide variety of comparisons, including those, precisely so that a wide variety of plausible comparisons can be made.

A better default position would be to not assume that there is any inherrent negative or positive outcomes between consenting adults in these scenarios (i.e., individuals 18 or older in committed sexual relationships where there is an existing power discrepency), even though in exceptional cases there may be.

Why would that be the default position? We have, as already shown, significant evidence that outcomes are negative in aggregate, to a statistically significant degree.

 

[AuthenticM]

We have plenty of evidence that student/teacher relationships generally cause a great deal of harm.

That doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

 

[Opiate]

That doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

Yes, it does. You (And Muppet) can't possibly have read the entire study in the time frame since posting. Did you just read the abstract or something?

 

[m3k]

In introductory psychology they talk about why we shouldn't have teacher student relationships...

 

[Muppet of a Man]

The issue here is that I don't believe he is consenting. I know he believes he is consenting, but I don't agree that he is. Similarly (but to an even greater degree), a 15 year old is not truly consenting even if they insist that they totally want to have sex with the adult.

This is an important part of the discussion here: lots of children (or students or anyone in a position of weakness) are convinced they know what they want and explicitly state that they wanted and enjoyed the sexual contact with someone who has power over them. It happens. Important to sexual conduct laws and regulations is that young people, students, workers, soldiers, etc. are not capable of making these decisions even if they say they can.

Important distinction is that he is 18 and an adult. If he was in undergrad and she was in grad school, they could be a happy legal couple together. Alternatively, if he just went to high school in another school district, they could have also been a happy legal couple. I believe society is in err when it makes the assumption that it must always second guess an adult person in his position, and to criminalize their relationship with broad sweeping stokes of the brush at that. Just because something happens to adults in this situation some (perhaps a minority) of the time, doesn't mean you should make determinations on behalf of another adult. In essence, you are eliminating the adult student's autonomy because of hegemonic societal norms (which I believe need to be questioned). Mind you, I am specifically referencing this very particular situation (i.e., a teacher and their 18+ year old legal adult student) and not broadening it to any other situation between a teacher and a minor.

 

[hipbabboom]

Really?

I mean, in my state a Master's is required in order to each, which would likely put someone over the age of 23/24 by the time one completed it.
But in states which only require a Bachelor's, one could easily be done with a Bachelor's by the time one is 22.

So, if someone's plan was to teach high school, after finishing their degree, what, they just sit around and wait until they're over the "appropriate" age?

I'm not saying they shouldn't teach. I'm saying when they're that close in age to their students, they may lack the characteristics to distinguish themselves as teachers.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

And my point is that specific, narrow question doesn't have studies (that I can see) targeting it precisely.



I have made a wide variety of comparisons, including those, precisely so that a wide variety of plausible comparisons can be made.



Why would that be the default position? We have, as already shown, significant evidence that outcomes are negative in aggregate, to a statistically significant degree.

For whom? For 18 year old legal adult students in this situation? You just said previously in this very post that we don't have evidence to support this position. The article you cite is clearly referencing minors in illicit student-teacher sexual abuse cases (CSA)--not autonomous 18 year old legal adults. I believe you are shaky ground extrapolating that to this situation. The law is even on shakier ground in that it severely criminalizes this particular situation seemingly unjustly.

 

[Wazzy]

It was not appropriate but don't claim an abuse of power without any evidence.

Evidence?

You're not going to find evidence of abuse of power because it can be implicit. Some people will feel pressured to do things even with no verbal push because of the persons position.

It's well known teachers should not be sleeping with their students, legal age or not.

Why should charges apply? Why not just fire her, alleviating her from her role as teacher? The student is 18 and consenting. If the student went to another school, theoretically they could have been in a loving, legal relationship. There is a reason that people are pointing the finger at Texas here. It seems to be a radical hardline application of the law in this instance.

Because she should not be sleeping with her students. It doesn't matter if the age consent is legal because it goes against most schools codes of conduct.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Evidence?

You're not going to find evidence of abuse of power because it can be implicit. Some people will feel pressured to do things even with no verbal push because of the persons position.

It's well known teachers should not be sleeping with their students, legal age or not.



Because she should not be sleeping with her students. It doesn't matter if the age consent is legal because it goes against most schools codes of conduct.

Key phrase, which you reference, is the "schools' codes of conduct". If the school's (her employer's) code of conduct is broken, they have every right to fire her. I am making the argument that her specific action in this scenario should not be criminalized by the state.

 

[Opiate]

Important distinction is that he is 18 and an adult. If he was in undergrad and she was in grad school, they could be a happy legal couple together. Alternatively, if he just went to high school in another school district, they could have also been a happy legal couple. I believe society is in err when it makes the assumption that it must always second guess an adult person in his position, and to criminalize their relationship with broad sweeping stokes of the brush at that. Just because something happens to adults in this situation some (perhaps a minority) of the time, doesn't mean you should make determinations on behalf of another adult. In essence, you are eliminating the adult student's autonomy because of hegemonic societal norms (which I believe need to be questioned). Mind you, I am specifically referencing this very particular situation (i.e., a teacher and their 18+ year old legal adult student) and not broadening it to any other situation between a teacher and a minor.

Correct, I am limiting his autonomy. I wanted to state that outright to make it clear that I am aware that is precisely what I'm suggesting.

It's important to note, also -- given our insistence on sticking to this specific case exclusively, even though no law can possibly apply that narrowly --- that this law only applies to high schools and (from what I'm reading as we create this thread) only to public schools. That means a college professor cannot be prosecuted. Although he can be fired, of course. It is not a law intended to criminalize all teacher contact with all students; just teacher contact with public, primary education students.

 

[Opiate]

Important distinction is that he is 18 and an adult. If he was in undergrad and she was in grad school, they could be a happy legal couple together. Alternatively, if he just went to high school in another school district, they could have also been a happy legal couple. I believe society is in err when it makes the assumption that it must always second guess an adult person in his position, and to criminalize their relationship with broad sweeping stokes of the brush at that. Just because something happens to adults in this situation some (perhaps a minority) of the time, doesn't mean you should make determinations on behalf of another adult. In essence, you are eliminating the adult student's autonomy because of hegemonic societal norms (which I believe need to be questioned). Mind you, I am specifically referencing this very particular situation (i.e., a teacher and their 18+ year old legal adult student) and not broadening it to any other situation between a teacher and a minor.

The problem with this, again, is that there are no studies of a scenario that narrow and specific. If you refuse to accept any studies from related situations (be they of young students generally or soldiers generally or whatever else you want me to produce), then of course I won't be able to produce any evidence because nothing that precise exists.

 

[Wazzy]

Key phrase, which you reference, is the "schools' codes of conduct". If the school's (her employer's) code of conduct is broken, they have every right to fire her. I am making the argument that her specific action in this scenario should not be criminalized by the state.

In regards to high school it should be criminal. While it shouldn't be charged the same as statutory rape, it's still an abuse of power therefore some action other than firing needs to be taken.

 

[speculawyer]

Key phrase, which you reference, is the "schools' codes of conduct". If the school's (her employer's) code of conduct is broken, they have every right to fire her. I am making the argument that her specific action in this scenario should not be criminalized by the state.

Exactly.

Evidence? No one has even alleged that she abused power! For all we know he could have been chasing after her. I dunno but I'm not going to assume anything . . . Especially things not even alleged.

Fire her. But are we going to waste police, court, and possibly prison time/money on an apparent consensual relationship between and 18 and 23 year old?

 

[terrisus]

I'm not saying they shouldn't teach. I'm saying when they're that close in age to their students, they may lack the characteristics to distinguish themselves as teachers.

So what would you propose that a 22-year-old with a degree in High School Education/appropriate subject field for teaching do?

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Correct, I am limiting his autonomy. I wanted to state that outright to make it clear that I am aware that is precisely what I'm suggesting.

It's important to note, also -- given our insistence on sticking to this specific case exclusively, even though no law can possibly apply that narrowly --- that this law only applies to high schools and (from what I'm reading as we create this thread) only to public schools. That means a college professor cannot be prosecuted. Although he can be fired, of course. It is not a law intended to criminalize all teacher contact with all students; just teacher contact with public, primary education students.

I will agree to disagree with your stance of limiting his autonomy. I think the law can be more finely tuned to exempt relationships between 2 consenting adults. I think the school is in the right to fire her, and if limited to that course of action, it would have been the right course of action to take against her. I am not advocating this type of situation as being ethical because clearly it is ethically questionable (for different reasons for me). However, I do believe the punishment should fall more in line with that which is administered to college professors who sleep with a their students.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Exactly.

Evidence? No one has even alleged that she abused power! For all we know he could have been chasing after her. I dunno but I'm not going to assume anything . . . Especially things not even alleged.

Fire her. But are we going to waste police, court, and possibly prison time/money on an apparent consensual relationship between and 18 and 23 year old?

Thank you for stating this plainly. This is the point I'm trying to make. This happens everyday (relationships between 18 year old boys and 23 year old girls) and is a natural outcome of the proximity of sexually attracted individuals. Just because you hire a young woman as a teacher doesn't mean her maturity level and stage in life is much different than the young man's in this scenario. Criminalizing this sort of thing is a cruel joke.

I feel like there are a lot of latent hegemonic societal (might I say Puritanical) norms embedded in these laws that are being fronted as legitimate concerns.

 

[Boaty McBoatface]

EDIT: NM Posted in wrong thread!

 

[michaelius]

In regards to high school it should be criminal. While it shouldn't be charged the same as statutory rape, it's still an abuse of power therefore some action other than firing needs to be taken.

Why should it be automatically classified as abuse of power ?

It's quite probable that he wasn't exactly opposed to the idea so shouldn't they have some evidence that she forced him to do it first ?

 

[Trey]

So what would you propose that a 22-year-old with a degree in High School Education/appropriate subject field for teaching do?

Go back to school like the rest of us.

 

[Opiate]

I will agree to disagree with your stance of limiting his autonomy. I think the law can be more finely tuned to exempt relationships between 2 consenting adults. I think the school is in the right to fire her, and if limited to that course of action, it would have been the right course of action to take against her. I am not advocating this type of situation as being ethical because clearly it is ethically questionable (for different reasons for me). However, I do believe the punishment should fall more in line with that which is administered to college professors who sleep with a their students.

Yep, I think that's reasonable. I don't mean to suggest that this law is clearly correct and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

 

[AuthenticM]

Yes, it does. You (And Muppet) can't possibly have read the entire study in the time frame since posting. Did you just read the abstract or something?

Ah, I have.

For AuthenticM, everything is about female emancipation.

Damn right, son. Although I don't know how that pertains to the discussion at hand.

 

[m3k]

Why should it be automatically classified as abuse of power ?

It's quite probable that he wasn't exactly opposed to the idea so shouldn't they have some evidence that she forced him to do it first ?

bebescumbag defence

 

[WanderingWind]

Thank you for stating this plainly. This is the point I'm trying to make. This happens everyday (relationships between 18 year old boys and 23 year old girls) and is a natural outcome of the proximity of sexually attracted individuals. Just because you hire a young woman as a teacher doesn't mean her maturity level and stage in life is much different than the young man's in this scenario. Criminalizing this sort of thing is a cruel joke.

I feel like there are a lot of latent hegemonic societal (might I say Puritanical) norms embedded in these laws that are being fronted as legitimate concerns.

Agreed. The school absolutely should fire her, and considering the black spot this puts on her record, she will never work in teaching again. Sending her to jail for an adult relationship is not right.

Is she scummy? Absolutely. Did she throw her career away for ridiculous reasons? Yup. But any way you slice it, they're both adults and he would be prosecuted as an adult if he committed a crime, he can enlist in the military, he can take on adult financial decisions. But he's suddenly a corruptible minor when it comes to issues dealing with sex. We can't have it both ways, either we treat him as an adult, or we treat him as a minor. Picking and choosing based on puritanical values and political point scoring is not right.

 

[AuthenticM]

But any way you slice it, they're both adults and he would be prosecuted as an adult if he committed a crime, he can enlist in the military, he can take on adult financial decisions. But he's suddenly a corruptible minor when it comes to issues dealing with sex. We can't have it both ways, either we treat him as an adult, or we treat him as a minor. Picking and choosing based on puritanical values and political point scoring is not right.

Well said.

 

[Katsa]

Well, she should have been more professional, but I remember being in high school and wanting to bang a couple of teachers.

This is getting overblown, unless they had intercourse when he was 17 (didn't see on article).

Reminds me of the drinking being at 21. If I can get drafted at 18 for war, I should be damn old enough to drink booze.

 

[Jintor]

So are we all basically in agreement that teachers shouldn't be banging students, but they also shouldn't be copping massive criminal punishments if the student is above the age of consent? Just checking the state of the thread

 

[terrene]

They're both adults. And I'm older than my girlfriend by more than these two. Texas loves overreacting to alleged sexual impropriety; I say that as someone who was born there.

 

[AuthenticM]

So are we all basically in agreement that teachers shouldn't be banging students, but they also shouldn't be copping massive criminal punishments if the student is above the age of consent? Just checking the state of the thread

Not all. That's where I stand though. In fact, I'm in the "no criminal punishment" camp.

 

[Femmeworth]

I feel like there are a lot of latent hegemonic societal (might I say Puritanical) norms embedded in these laws that are being fronted as legitimate concerns.

What.

 

[speculawyer]

So are we all basically in agreement that teachers shouldn't be banging students, but they also shouldn't be copping massive criminal punishments if the student is above the age of consent? Just checking the state of the thread

Pretty much.

There is some gray area that can be argued further but we lack information to resolve much.

 

[samurai1226]

Shes kinda cute, i dont think the guy will be "emotionally damaged"... She should lose her job, yeah, but thats about it

 

[B-Dubs]

What.

He's saying we are prudes about sex and it bleeds into our laws. Which isn't exactly wrong, but may not be applicable in this case.

Pretty much.

There is some gray area that can be argued further but we lack information to resolve much.

Yep.

 

[Zoe]

I feel like there are a lot of latent hegemonic societal (might I say Puritanical) norms embedded in these laws that are being fronted as legitimate concerns.

I couldn't give a flying rat's ass if stranger 18 and 23 year olds met up at a bar and banged all weekend. Not approving of teacher-student/authority-abuse relationships doesn't make me puritanical.

 

[Wazzy]

Why should it be automatically classified as abuse of power ?

It's quite probable that he wasn't exactly opposed to the idea so shouldn't they have some evidence that she forced him to do it first ?

She is in a position of authority. It's not just a matter of verbally forcing someone into doing something.

So are we all basically in agreement that teachers shouldn't be banging students, but they also shouldn't be copping massive criminal punishments if the student is above the age of consent? Just checking the state of the thread

It depends on what we're arguing regarding criminally charged. In this case I don't see jail time as necessary but a fine and fired from her job, yes.

 

[dutchguyjack]

Honestly, at that age, and a woman that looks like her, I would've banged her regardless of if she was my teacher or not, given the opportunity.

I think we shouldn't cross over into the territory of law and "emotional damage" before establishing whether or not the boy felt "forced" to participate in the activities. At his age though... I doubt he wouldn't have taken the chance if he were given it.

 

[EloquentM]

I guess bands a make her dance.

Underrated

 

[EloquentM]

I didn't really read but did this thread turn into James Franco part 2 electric bugaloo?

 

[Supast4r]

18 and 23. Lose her job sure since you shouldn't be fucking your students, but she shouldn't face criminal charges IMO.

How are their criminal charges in this case if the dude was 18? Did they come from being on school grounds?

 

[WanderingWind]

I couldn't give a flying rat's ass if stranger 18 and 23 year olds met up at a bar and banged all weekend. Not approving of teacher-student/authority-abuse relationships doesn't make me puritanical.

Pretty large gap between disapproving of something and wishing it to be criminal. The post you quoted is saying it shouldn't be illegal, not that he approves of this particular case.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

Yeah, I'm sure he's real mentally damaged.

 

[dutchguyjack]

How are their criminal charges in this case if the dude was 18? Did they come from being on school grounds?

I'm guessing they assume she abused her power as a teacher

 

[npa189]

Woof, but still this stuff can't fly on school grounds even if he is 18, use some common sense!

 

[speculawyer]

She is in a position of authority. It's not just a matter of verbally forcing someone into doing something.

I suspect the main 'power' she wielded over him was having boobs.

 

[Pegosaurus]

Guy was 18 really not a whole lot wrong here...

18 is legal, and she's hardly much older than he is. Other than doing it on school property, where is the problem in this, and how has she damaged him emotionally?

"damage them emotionally"

lol

.

 

[Norua]

He got damaged emotionally because of a blowjob at 18, but he could have joined the army a year ago and everything would have been alright in good old Texas.

 

[Trey]

I couldn't give a flying rat's ass if stranger 18 and 23 year olds met up at a bar and banged all weekend. Not approving of teacher-student/authority-abuse relationships doesn't make me puritanical.

Constraining hedonistic passion sessions to a mere two days does make you puritanical. Shame, Zoe, shame.

 

[davepoobond]

They're both adults. And I'm older than my girlfriend by more than these two. Texas loves overreacting to alleged sexual impropriety; I say that as someone who was born there.

You should be arrested.

Do you guys give each other blowies in closets?

 

[boiled goose]

Teacher student relationships are not appropriate. She should be fired and perhaps face a civil suit. Criminal might be overkill.

 

[Bishop89]

After watching the video

one of my fav new gifs.

 

[kevm3]

He got damaged emotionally because of a blowjob at 18, but he could have joined the army a year ago and everything would have been alright in good old Texas.

Yep, it's only in Texas where teachers can't give high school students BJs on school premises