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Texas band teacher had oral sex with student in school supply closet
- Thread starter Black Republican
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AuthenticM
Member
Why the fuck is that illegal ?
Jesus Christ, America.
Jesus Christ, America.
Fornaximus
Member
Why? It's their business, not everyone else's. It becomes problematic when everyone else decides that what two consenting adults do in private is AN OUTRAGE. Because emotional damage and stuff.
shira
Member
Heard too many stories of high school teachers marrying their students after graduation.
Power imbalance is a thing. Or should teachers be able to blackmail students into sex?
ElRenoRaven
Member
On age level they're both adults and I'm ok there. But she was a teacher and he a student. It is something that probably should not have happened until he graduated. Also the activity on school grounds was obviously wrong. Hence all said and done I feel it was a good firing. Criminal charges though are a bit much.
AuthenticM
Member
The kid is 18; she should lose her job, is what should happen. Not get criminal charges brought up against her.
That's how it happens in Canada.
terrisus
Member
Really?
I mean, in my state a Master's is required in order to each, which would likely put someone over the age of 23/24 by the time one completed it.
But in states which only require a Bachelor's, one could easily be done with a Bachelor's by the time one is 22.
So, if someone's plan was to teach high school, after finishing their degree, what, they just sit around and wait until they're over the "appropriate" age?
I disagree. Criminal charges are appropriate to me. Teacher student relationships are bad news in general. If you can't wait until they are not at your school you probably shouldn't be teaching.
You can also get criminal charges if you are, for example, a military officer who abuses your authority and manipulates/pressures/cajoles someone of lower rank in to sexual activity. The US tends to believe that abuse of authority in that fashion is a criminal offense.
Beyond the power imbalance and coercive effect, the school also has an interest in prohibiting conflicts of interest within its merit based evaluation structure.
A high school student cannot legally consent to sexual activity with a teacher in Texas, and cannot privately consent to sexual activity with a teacher in the US.
YoYo Switch
Banned
Aww she's cute
Yep, even if it is consensual with no coercion, you still have this problem. It is just a really bad idea in a lot of ways.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Blow on this woodwind, but blow in reverse
AuthenticM
Member
Criminal charges are not appropriate. So a 40-year old woman sleeping with her 40-year old student should be sent to prison ? Because obviously, she's a danger to society ?
No.
Except that, between adults, there shouldn't be a presumption that the person of authority has blackmailed the other party. If blackmail or coercion were involved, then yes, criminal charges would be appropriate because there wouldn't be consent anyway. But two grown adults should be able to have a relationship without fear of criminal charges being brought upon them.
It's completely ridiculous to think otherwise.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
So what exactly is she being charged with?
Dudes 18.
Dudes 18.
Fornaximus
Member
Let them bang, bro.
TS-08 was speaking outside of the criminality of the situation. On a moral or ethical level. I suppose a teacher could definitely leverage that kind of arrangement against the student if it weren't illegal. For the sake of different kids in different situations, it should still be illegal, although I do highly disagree with this teacher facing any criminal consequences. The public shaming and unemployment are punishment enough.
I know I can't force you to make substantive replies to my posts, but it would sure make for a more interesting discussion if you did.
Femmeworth
Banned
What's ridiculous is that you can't see it as an authority figure abusing their power, regardless of the severity.
AuthenticM
Member
Except that people in positions of authority are not always abusing their powers and should not be presumed to be doing that.
Criminal charges does not mean I think there should be a prison sentence. And yes, in that instance I would still support criminal charges if that was the law of the land. It's not such a great massive issue I would be campaigning for laws to be created if they didn't exist, but I have no issue with laws like that existing.
The difficulty of proving they weren't is the problem. Much like statutory rape, a person under the age of consent may be capable intellectually and emotionally of giving consent, but the presumption is that they cannot and hence cannot legally give consent.
i'm not so down on the age gap or anything but yo, teachers, don't mack on your students
it's way easier for the law to just blanket ban that shit though. client/solicitor and doctor/patient are other relationships which are not always part of an abuse of power thing but for various reasons it's just far easier to presume those relationships suck
get out of those professional relationships and then you can start getting your freak on, basically
it's way easier for the law to just blanket ban that shit though. client/solicitor and doctor/patient are other relationships which are not always part of an abuse of power thing but for various reasons it's just far easier to presume those relationships suck
get out of those professional relationships and then you can start getting your freak on, basically
AuthenticM
Member
Except we are talking about relationships between two adults, both over the age of consent.
I'm really having a hard time believing what I'm reading. Yall are the reason why the US judicial system is so jacked.
NullPointer
Member
Shouldn't that say man instead of boy?
Fire her, but there is absolutely no need for the law to get between two consenting adults.
Age doesn't matter?
And I am having a hard time you don't understand the idea of power imbalance. It's not very complicated. Should a doctor fuck their patient? Should a lawyer fuck their client? Should a cop fuck someone they are giving a ticket too? These are all power imbalances that are often illegal regardless of the age of the people involved.
It is not ridiculous and is very common around the world. Persons in authority are frequently prohibited from sexual activity with those who they are directly supervising in legal (e.g. Soldier/Officer), ethical (e.g. Student/Teacher) and private (e.g. Boss/Worker) environments.
The explanation is fairly simple: there may be some student/teacher (or soldier/officer or boss/employee) relationships which are not exploitative and are consensual, but there are simply too many which are not, and distinguishing between the two is frequently impossible. Solution: prohibit it.
There are two variables at work here: age and power. An officer can't legally have sex with a soldier, even if that soldier is 50, let alone 18. Outside the legal framework, it's very common for most work environments to have rules explicitly prohibiting sexual relations between bosses and employees.
Based on what I'm reading, it's this second variable that matters here, not the first.
AuthenticM
Member
Is that really the case though ? Have there been studies showing that, among employer-employee relationships, most were coercive ? Because I'm having a hard time believing that.
Criminal charges should not be involved if there was no abuse of power. Radiation from their profesionnal order ? Sure. But nothing more. You will never get me to believe otherwise.
Specifically about work places? No, and it's nearly impossible to design a study which shows this. Do you have studies to the contrary? I'd love to see them if so.
You're explicitly admitting you're approaching this with a very strong bias, and you may want to leave the discussion to those who can look at this more objectively.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
This is correct. Having worked for a teachers organisation before and being able to access their cases regarding misconduct, the vast majority of the sex-related ones deal with teachers using their role to give them access to children who they then groom or abuse. A case of two adults in a consensual relationship is a rare exception.
JordanN
Banned
This is true.
Mcdonalds forbids intimacy with co-workers.
http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/conte...s/Standards_of_conduct/US_Final_July_2013.pdfMcdonalds said:
zorlaczerohero
Banned
Photo for you GAFers using your imagination. Also is that a wedding ring? Ooo.. so kinky.
Wrong hand for a wedding ring, unless she Orthodox Catholic who wear it on the right.
AuthenticM
Member
I am looking at this objectively; I'm simply confident in my position.
terrisus
Member
So they're only "prohibited from dating or having a sexual relationship?"
What if they're engaged or married, but not having sex?
What then McDonalds?
What then?
You are not. Generally, objective people do not state their opinion and then say "it's completely ridiculous to believe otherwise" unless talking about, oh, the theory of evolution. Most importantly, objective people do not say things like this:
AuthenticM said:
No, it doesn't. She is a teacher, he is a student. By law, what she did was illegal as Texas recognizes this as a position of power over him. What part of this are so many people are having a hard time understanding exactly?
AuthenticM
Member
I should have tampered that statement.
Anyways, I'm glad this would not happen in Canada.
Lots of people think the concept of that law is bullshit and based in puritanical history and has no place in modern society.
Lots of people don't believe you have to follow or respect an unjust law.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Hmm...when I was 23 and in grad school, I hooked up with an 18 year old undergrad.
But it was cool because she wasn't in my lab section.
But it was cool because she wasn't in my lab section.
Burn the witch.
Zoe
Member
Thinking a teacher can't just groom and coerce a student is puritanical? Thems the breaks if the student passes legal age?
Here's a case of a teacher and 17 year old student in Ontario, Canada. While they supposedly had "inappropriate contact" when the student was 17, they allegedly did not have sex until age 18.
http://lawiscool.com/2009/09/21/stu...-be-a-serious-crime-in-canada/comment-page-1/
Different circumstances, but the closest case I could find on short notice. In addition, it appears that many Canadian companies have express rules against office romance between bosses and employees (actually, every single example I just looked at), including BCE, Inc. (Bell), and Tim Hortons.
It does appear that this specific law (all sexual conduct between public high school students and teachers is legally prohibited) does not exist in Canada, however. At least not federally -- although that's true of America, too.
AuthenticM
Member
The crux of the problem is that the law makes no exception for relationships that is not characterized by an abuse of power. It enacts a general obligation for (certain ?) employers to avoid having intimate relationships with their employee, and presumes that power was abuse when such relationships occur.
Certain people, like myself, believe that such a general statute does not serve well the interest of justice.
Of course, and I don't have a problem with that. We're not talking about criminal charges, which are much more severe and life-impacting.
The general age of consent in Canada is 16, but is upped to 18 in cases involving people in positions of authority. So for a student-teacher relationship, the age of consent would be 18. A teacher who sleeps with his 17-year old student would face statutory rape charges. I also don't have a problem with that.
My problem is the general statement that any member of a professional order (and then some) would face criminal charges if they had sexual contact with their employee or even patient, regardless of the age of the latter.
Punchy4486
Banned
This. I was groomed for over five years by a classmate's mom. We had consensual sex once I was 18. I thought I wanted to do it or should do it "for the story" after I broke up with my high school sweetheart and was in a vulnerable position.
It was legal, I was an intelligent and relatively mature "adult", but I was over my head and didn't know how it would effect me. The experience seriously emotionally scarred me and was an inciting incident in the clinical depression that ruined my life for the ten years after.
Grooming is a real thing. Consensual sex with someone older and/or in a position of power over you can really fuck you up. Obviously my case is mine and not everyone's, but it's definitely possible, and maybe probable, that intercourse of that nature will negatively impact the subordinates life to an extent.
It has to be a blanket rule to protect the victims, because sometimes they don't know or think they are at the time. So sure, there could be some innocent collateral damage, and that's why most workplaces ban it all together or require lots of legal paperwork.
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