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[pigeon]

He's pretty clearly making the point that akira's comment was laughably ill-thought out.

I don't know why you would assume that, just because if he were using the words in the same way that 99% of society does that's what he would be trying to say. He's already demonstrated his willingness to declare that symbols mean unique and idiosyncratic things only he knows. He could be trying to say ANYTHING. We'll never know!

But if that were what he were trying to say, it would be pretty comically facile, because African-Americans (who aren't actually all rappers, FYI) use the N-word in explicit recognition of what its original meaning is. If that original meaning had actually been forgotten it wouldn't be used the way it's used by them -- because it's inextricably tied up with issues of racism, solidarity and resistance to oppression. So basically all that would reveal is that he didn't understand the most basic things about the culture he's trying to talk about.

 

[besada]

I know plenty of fellow Texans who use the symbol in various ways and do it with no intent of any throwback to the South or the Confederacy or racism or slavery in mind. Maybe it's just a cultural difference?

That's funny, because I was born and raised in Texas and I've never met someone who displayed the stars and bars without being acutely aware of how offensive it was.

 

[Dude Abides]

You're just living in denial. I dont know what else to say on it. You're just going to flat refuse to accept that some people dont actually display it to represent their support of succession or slavery. I think thats a pretty close-minded way to see it, but whatever.

You're just living in the land of non-comprehension. I don't care if they subjectively think it means barbecue and cotillions or whatever the fuck. The flag exists in the actual world where actual people live and know what it has always stood for. You can't unilaterally decide that none of that matters simply because that's your preference.

I just ask them to define heritage. Then suddenly whoopsie.

That too.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

I don't know why you would assume that, just because if he were using the words in the same way that 99% of society does that's what he would be trying to say. He's already demonstrated his willingness to declare that symbols mean unique and idiosyncratic things only he knows. He could be trying to say ANYTHING. We'll never know!

But if that were what he were trying to say, it would be pretty comically facile, because African-Americans (who aren't actually all rappers, FYI) use the N-word in explicit recognition of what its original meaning is. If that original meaning had actually been forgotten it wouldn't be used the way it's used by them -- because it's inextricably tied up with issues of racism, solidarity and resistance to oppression. So basically all that would reveal is that he didn't understand the most basic things about the culture he's trying to talk about.

inextricably... oppression....really? Why does the NAACP move to ban the word?

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

You're just living in the land of non-comprehension. I don't care if they subjectively think it means barbecue and cotillions or whatever the fuck. The flag exists in the actual world where actual people live and know what it has always stood for. You can't unilaterally decide that none of that matters because simply because that's your preference.



That too.

You cant unilaterally decide? How is that? I just did.

 

[Seanspeed]

I just ask them to define heritage. Then suddenly whoopsie.

Pretty much everybody's heritage will include some nasty bits. Doesn't mean there isn't good things to take from it that you can be proud of. We shouldn't all have to answer for the actions and attitudes of the people from hundreds of years ago that we came from.

I just think people who want to go that route should find a better symbol. One that doesn't offend such a large amount of people at the same time.

seanspeed: the meaning of that word hasn't changed...

Depends on who says it, doesn't it?

 

[pigeon]

inextricably... oppression....really? Why does the NAACP move to ban the word?

Even if I assume that you've temporarily agreed to use words in the same manner as the rest of us I still don't know what you're talking about! Do you have a link?

 

[Dude Abides]

You cant unilaterally decide? How is that? I just did.

You can, but everyone else will rightfully point and laugh and continue to live in objective reality.

 

[akira28]

Depends on who says it, doesn't it?

Not really. Explain further.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

Even if I assume that you've temporarily agreed to use words in the same manner as the rest of us I still don't know what you're talking about! Do you have a link?

http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/the--n--word-is-laid-to-rest-by-the-naacp

 

[Seanspeed]

Not really. Explain further.

I'm obviously wasting my time if I have to do that.

 

[pigeon]

http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/the--n--word-is-laid-to-rest-by-the-naacp

Okay, I read your link (assuming that was supposed to be a link and not just a meaningless collection of characters in an artfully pleasing arrangement) but I'm still not sure what point you think you're making. The NAACP wants to kill the word specifically because the original meaning has not vanished or been eliminated. Since that's...my whole point, the answer to "why are they doing this" is "because they agree with me, and I'm correct on this issue."

I mean, right? You can get a little more in depth about the NAACP being pro-assimilation and pro-social justice while an activist rapper or street artist would be anti-assimilation and pro-social justice, but really it's not relevant to the point, and frankly, I'm not convinced that it would be a particularly wise investment of time in this particular conversation.

(Especially because it's impossible for me to be sure that it is, in fact, a conversation, due to the fundamentally arbitrary nature of symbols.)

 

[Seanspeed]

You can, but everyone else will rightfully point and laugh and continue to live in objective reality.

Symbolism isn't a subjective vs objective argument. Its not my 'opinion' that holding up my pointer and middle fingers together means 'peace'. Its just what its grown to mean here. In England, displaying the same symbol might get me in a fight. No one is right or wrong, no hard facts need apply, its just how symbolism works.

 

[Devolution]

Pretty much everybody's heritage will include some nasty bits. Doesn't mean there isn't good things to take from it that you can be proud of. We shouldn't all have to answer for the actions and attitudes of the people from hundreds of years ago that we came from.

I just think people who want to go that route should find a better symbol. One that doesn't offend such a large amount of people at the same time.


Depends on who says it, doesn't it?

So what is good is there to take. Please inform us.

 

[Omegasquash]

People are really defending the confederate flag?

Come on, it doesn't even deserve proper noun status!

 

[Seanspeed]

So what is good is there to take. Please inform us.

So you're saying there's absolutely NOTHING good about people from the South or their lifestyle or customs?

 

[akira28]

I'm obviously wasting my time if I have to do that.

No, it's a thing, where I have a point, but I draw it out of you instead. You could humor me...I've been humoring you.

anyway, I don't even want to go into it. You have no idea how long I've been arguing about this sort of thing with certain sorts of people over the internet.

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

Okay, I read your link (assuming that was supposed to be a link and not just a meaningless collection of characters in an artfully pleasing arrangement) but I'm still not sure what point you think you're making. The NAACP wants to kill the word specifically because the original meaning has not vanished or been eliminated. Since that's...my whole point, the answer to "why are they doing this" is "because they agree with me, and I'm correct on this issue."

I mean, right? You can get a little more in depth about the NAACP being pro-assimilation and pro-social justice while an activist rapper or street artist would be anti-assimilation and pro-social justice, but really it's not relevant to the point, and frankly, I'm not convinced that it would be a particularly wise investment of time in this particular conversation.

(Especially because it's impossible for me to be sure that it is, in fact, a conversation, due to the fundamentally arbitrary nature of symbols.)

I'm just giving an example of something that has a multitude of different meanings. Why can't the same be said of that flag?

 

[Devolution]

So you're saying there's absolutely NOTHING good about people from the South or their lifestyle or customs?

I'm asking you specifically about what the flag represents. Tell me what's good about it.

 

[pigeon]

I'm just giving an example of something that has a multitude of different meanings.

But you aren't, because it still has the same meaning, it just has an additional nuance derived from that meaning. (Also you aren't because there's no way to prove that you're attempting to convey any particular meaning with your collection of symbols, but that's another topic.)

 

[Dr.NoiseWater]

But you aren't, because it still has the same meaning, it just has an additional nuance derived from that meaning. (Also you aren't because there's no way to prove that you're attempting to convey any particular meaning with your collection of symbols, but that's another topic.)

How is it the same? I could name songs where it has both positive and negative connotations.

 

[akira28]

please do

 

[Seanspeed]

I'm asking you specifically about what the flag represents. Tell me what's good about it.

We were talking about heritage, since thats what the flag represents for a lot of people.

 

[YoungHav]

A bunch of beer guzzling hillbillies who constantly claim that they are real Americans and patriots, worship a failed secession from the same America they claim to love. #doublethink.

 

[Tex117]

I'm just giving an example of something that has a multitude of different meanings. Why can't the same be said of that flag?

And to some people in the South, it does. But when the flag has often been associated with racism, that takes priority over whatever else it may stand for.

That's pretty much the argument and the way of it.

That simple.

Heaven forbid the guys on this thread look at a Mississippi State Flag.

 

[Dude Abides]

Symbolism isn't a subjective vs objective argument. Its not my 'opinion' that holding up my pointer and middle fingers together means 'peace'. Its just what its grown to mean here. In England, displaying the same symbol might get me in a fight. No one is right or wrong, no hard facts need apply, its just how symbolism works.

Yes, it is objective. Symbols have meaning due to common understanding of them. If that weren't the case, then why are we hitting keys labeled with symbols that will appear on our screens in an attempt to communicate ideas to each other? The fact that two fingers would start a fight in England but not here does not undermine that point, it demonstrates it.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

A flag as a symbol will always be a thing of pride and a thing of property ownership. This is why you show it off and wear it high in the sky. Everyone knew what the american flag being pitched into the moon's dirt meant. Such basic symbolism will never change.
But yes, symbolism shifts (rarely but it does happen), but in the case of the confederate flag, it hasn't much at all. It doesn't represent history. That makes no sense. It represents pride for a part of history. If somebody put up a 13 colonies flag, it would mean nothing at all either. So? What about the 13 colonies? What about the confederacy? Oh...that's right.

It represents a pride of a part of history, which is a vile, pathetic and sad part of our history that encouraged bigotry and stubbornness and, worst of all, death of your brother over it all. There is nothing to be proud of. There never will be, unless you're morally repugnant. People need to stop playing stupid to try to make your opposition sound stupid. That's not how it works. What are you proud of? What? They died? Died for what? Oh, again...that's right.

For obvious reasons, I hate using WW2 references to make a point, but it really is the best example I can come up with. Putting a nazi flag in your lawn because it's a part of your history is playing stupid, extraordinarily stupid in fact... and so is putting up the confederate flag. The flag has nothing to do with cheesy grits or succotash, cowboy boots or southern hospitality. Everybody knows what the flags of these fallen empires stand for (which is what the fallen empires stood for) and what it stands for is so ingrained in us that it's not going to change ever in our lifetimes.

And yes, symbolism changes depending on environment and time and other factors, in which case having people from the south use the confederacy flag as a piece of pride is the worst possible scenario for such a symbolic gesture. This is not the equivalent of black people using the n word, this is the equivalent of white slave owner's ancestors using the n word.

I'm not saying the flag should be illegal, at least on private property. You can go back in time to the 1950's and erect the old USSR flag on your lawn in the middle of suburbia for all I care. But don't say you put it up because you like the color scheme. Don't play stupid to the whole world, who are all rolling their eyes at you.

And it's just not the south. I've seen extremely racist people in Maryland, Upstate New York and Ohio with the flag and when confronted they say the same things a Texan or Georgian would say: But it's part of our history. Playing stupid. Plain stupid.

 

[Chichikov]

We were talking about heritage, since thats what the flag represents for a lot of people.

The genocide of native Americans or internment of Japanese Americans is also part of our heritage, but I will still take issues if you decide to celebrate those shameful moment in our history.

And to some people in the South, it does. But when the flag has often been associated with racism, that takes priority over whatever else it may stand for.

This is a battle flag, it was only officially flown over forces fighting to preserve slavery.
The whole "symbol of southern living" thing came much after the fact.

 

[gutter_trash]

if you don't wanna be part of the union, just GTFO

A bunch of beer guzzling hillbillies who constantly claim that they are real Americans and patriots, worship a failed secession from the same America they claim to love. #doublethink.

pretty much.

The North-East is more real America than Texas

 

[SillyEskimo]

When I lived in Arkansas, many of the people there referred to the Civil War as The War of Northern Aggression. They did not do this to be ironic. The South is really something else.

 

[vas_a_morir]

...wow. Just wow. It's always amazing to see anyone that lump the Confederacy in with themselves by saying "we." You actually WANT to be associated with that institution? You're DEFENDING them, patting them on the back and saying "they did a pretty good job fighting for racism, considering the circumstances!"

Read. Just Read. Reread what I wrote, man. "We"- The United States of America. I'm not from a Confederate state, and all of my family fought for the Union. I mean "we" as "Americans." That's how we won, but in a losery way because we (We americans) should have won more decisively.

I'm identifying with the USA as a current citizen of the country, and I was talking about how I feel about our victory against the now defunct CSA. I'm not defending slavery or any of that stuff you said. I wouldn't call Iraqis losers either, because quite frankly it's childish and ignores the fact that good men fight because they have no choice but to do so, so I respect their courage.

Here is what I meant:

And calling them 'losers' is typical American arrogance. Given the circumstances and the great advantages with both industrial and military infrastructure, the USA kinda won in a less than impressive way.

 

[bangai-o]

I wonder what its like to live next to one of these houses.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Right, because the US stopped with atrocities in 1960.

Guess we get a clean slate sometime soon though if PR becomes a state.

Jokes on you again, homie. When PR comes into the union, it's a clean slate for the US.

 

[evilromero]

The south will rise you know...

Sigh..

No wonder current republicans are sore losers....

The south have people that re-enacts a battle they lost every year...

It was the Democratic Party that supported slave ownership by the way.

 

[Hylian7]

If I remember correctly my high school banned the Confederate flag (or at least attempted to ban it, as people still wore stuff with it on it). I agree, it's not a good thing and I don't get some people's obsession with it.

Even with the slavery issue aside, it's still a symbol of "Let's pull out of the nation and give ourselves a reason to kill people in our nation." which is still not a good thing.

 

[Seanspeed]

Yes, it is objective. Symbols have meaning due to common understanding of them. If that weren't the case, then why are we hitting keys labeled with symbols that will appear on our screens in an attempt to communicate ideas to each other? The fact that two fingers would start a fight in England but not here does not undermine that point, it demonstrates it.

You're mistaking 'common understanding' with 'your understanding'. Again, your flat refusal to recognize that not everybody flies the flag for the reasons you think they do is leading to a pure roadblock in getting anywhere with this. You are free, and even justified, in feeling offended by it, but the ignoring reality bit isn't fair and doesn't really give you much credit in the 'intellectual honesty' field. Its simply not as black and white as you're trying to make it. I get the feeling you've never even talked to somebody who has flown a Confederate flag. They're still human beings, as much as you'd like to reduce them to racist, evil people.

The genocide of native Americans or internment of Japanese Americans is also part of our heritage, but I will still take issues if you decide to celebrate those shameful moment in our history.
This is a battle flag, it was only officially flown over forces fighting to preserve slavery.
The whole "symbol of southern living" thing came much after the fact.

These people aren't all celebrating the fight for slavery. You're very right that southern living thing came well after the fact, but thats kinda the thing with time - things change. What it meant 150 years ago might not mean the same thing to everybody now. Some of y'all seem really incapable of understanding this.

Here's the thing - people have a right to be upset about it. Thats fine. And good. But to try and imply that everybody who flies a Confederate flag is some racist, slavery-supporting successionist, is ridiculous. Flat-out ridiculous. And y'all know it. But you've got to take the 'hard stance' on it, I suppose. If you're not with us, you're against us. No middle ground.

I'm with most of you in condemning the flag. The association with racism cant be denied. There might be tons of people who dont fly it for that reason, but the association IS there, and while it doesn't automatically make you racist, it certainly is a sign you might be one. I get all that. I'm not defending the use of the flag, necessarily, but I think the individual people need to be given some leeway in all this. I've heard people say they wouldn't associate with somebody who displayed a Confederate flag, but I think they'd be surprised if they did. There's lots of perfectly decent people who use it for the whole Southern heritage thing that they probably grew up with and these people aren't lesser people because of it. Perhaps they aren't as politically correct or as 'enlightened' as some of us would like, but that doesn't make them bad people. Lack of compassion is hardly an issue that Southerners face alone afterall.

I dont know. It sucks to agree with a lot of what you guys say, but in the end, really despise the 'all or nothing' attitude taken.

 

[Matt]

Read. Just Read. Reread what I wrote, man. "We"- The United States of America. I'm not from a Confederate state, and all of my family fought for the Union. I mean "we" as "Americans." That's how we won, but in a losery way because we (We americans) should have won more decisively.

I'm identifying with the USA as a current citizen of the country, and I was talking about how I feel about our victory against the now defunct CSA. I'm not defending slavery or any of that stuff you said. I wouldn't call Iraqis losers either, because quite frankly it's childish and ignores the fact that good men fight because they have no choice but to do so, so I respect their courage.

Here is what I meant:

Sorry for misunderstanding you, but I think you can agree that the sentence could be read both ways.

But I take back all that I said, it was obviously misplaced.

 

[Angelus Errare]

This is like wearing KKK and Nazi regalia and hiding behind culture...just stop.

 

[Chumly]

99% of the people flying the confederate flag are racist one way or another. They might not be KKK style but it still doesn't make it right. They hide behind the "southern" culture farce as a defense.

Can't wait to see the germans flying nazi flags as a part of their cultural heritage..........

 

[CHEEZMO™]

99% of the people flying the confederate flag are racist one way or another. They might not be KKK style but it still doesn't make it right. They hide behind the "southern" culture farce as a defense.

Can't wait to see the germans flying nazi flags as a part of their cultural heritage..........

Hey I'm just flying it to honour the Reich's strong work ethic. Heritage not hate™

 

[Seanspeed]

This is like wearing KKK and Nazi regalia and hiding behind culture...just stop.

Its not that extreme. People in the North were incredibly racist at the time, too. Lincoln himself said that blacks were inferior people. The difference betweeen Southerners and Northerners really wasn't that big.

 

[Chumly]

Its not that extreme. People in the North were incredibly racist at the time, too. Lincoln himself said that blacks were inferior people. The difference betweeen Southerners and Northerners really wasn't that big.

That has nothing to do with it. People flying the confederate flag are STILL RACIST

 

[Seanspeed]

99% of the people flying the confederate flag are racist one way or another.

Do you have a source for that statistic? Or is it just some spontaneous, overreactive BS you pulled out your ass at a moment's notice?

Seriously, crap like this isn't productive.

 

[youngwerther]

And it's just not the south. I've seen extremely racist people in Maryland, Upstate New York and Ohio with the flag and when confronted they say the same things a Texan or Georgian would say: But it's part of our history. Playing stupid. Plain stupid.

No!
Surely not things a TEXAN or GEORGIAN would say!?

 

[s7evn]

It was the Democratic Party that supported slave ownership by the way.

Because the parties haven't changed since the 1860's. But you're right, he would have been better to say (social) conservatives instead of republicans.

 

[Angry Fork]

I wish more southerners embraced the confederacy again so they could secede and stop hindering progress.

 

[Dude Abides]

You're mistaking 'common understanding' with 'your understanding'. Again, your flat refusal to recognize that not everybody flies the flag for the reasons you think they do is leading to a pure roadblock in getting anywhere with this. You are free, and even justified, in feeling offended by it, but the ignoring reality bit isn't fair and doesn't really give you much credit in the 'intellectual honesty' field. Its simply not as black and white as you're trying to make it. I get the feeling you've never even talked to somebody who has flown a Confederate flag. They're still human beings, as much as you'd like to reduce them to racist, evil people.

I never claimed anyone that flies the flag is racist and evil - you're allowing your attachment to whichever friends or family members are fond of the flag, or some weird regional pride, get the best of your reason. I explicitly acknowledged that people have different subjective ideas about symbols. But they don't get to claim that they can therefore ignore the common understanding - and it is the common understanding - of what that symbol means by simply asserting that they have chosen to understand it differently. I know plenty of people who like the confederate flag - not all of them are vicious racists (though some of them are pretty racist) - but they're rather myopic and ignorant since they can't or won't understand that their subjective views on the matter aren't the end of the story.

That you can't understand this does suggest that you've never talked to a black person about this subject.

 

[Seanspeed]

I never claimed anyone that flies the flag is racist and evil - you're allowing your attachment to whichever friends or family members are fond of the flag, or some weird regional pride, get the best of your reason. I explicitly acknowledged that people have different subjective ideas about symbols. But they don't get to claim that they can therefore ignore the common understanding - and it is the common understanding - of what that symbol means by simply asserting that they have chosen to understand it differently. I know plenty of people who like the confederate flag - not all of them are vicious racists (though some of them are pretty racist) - but they're rather myopic and ignorant since they can't or won't understand that their subjective views on the matter aren't the end of the story.

That you can't understand this does suggest that you've never talked to a black person about this subject.

Again, 'common understanding' in your book seems to mean 'my own understanding'. Perhaps where you live, its the common understanding, but I'm trying to say that its not quite as 'common' everywhere else, particularly in the South.

You're not telling me anything I cant understand. I actually have talked about it with lots of people, and I always side with condemning it, I just dont go the lengths some people do to make it some black and white issue and I dont condemn each and every individual on the basis of displaying it. Just because I dont agree with it doesn't mean they're racist, or a bad person or anything.

 

[Darknight]

I've seen Hispanics with Confederate flag bumper stickers. Oh my.

Idontwanttoliveinthisworld.jpg

Cant believe some of this shit.

 

[Chumly]

Do you have a source for that statistic? Or is it just some spontaneous, overreactive BS you pulled out your ass at a moment's notice?

Seriously, crap like this isn't productive.

Someone in your family one of them? Seriously show us all these non-racist flag owners. The vast majority of them are.