Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I'm on your side as far as liking the movie, but this statement combined with your last couple posts makes me want to just point out your user name to everybody.
The Amazing Spider-Man |OT|
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I'm on your side as far as liking the movie, but this statement combined with your last couple posts makes me want to just point out your user name to everybody.
now we also have to be victims of horrific murder tragedies in order to judge moments of acting. Do we also need to be script writers to judge the often terrible writing? Do we also need to paint to judge art? Do we need to be video game developers to judge games?
Your dumb point is dumb.
But, since some of us put time into our positions, here is the reason why it failed even if Andrew Garfield's crying face wasn't the most hilarious thing ever:
The premise here is: Emotional moments must be earned. Manipulative tripe does not a sad scene make:
Amir0x said:
Note, there is a specific, reasoned stance in there... you have to actually read and not kneejerk to see it. You may still disagree with it, I just hope your position was stronger than the last few guys whose arguments amounted to:
1. How DARE you react differently than I do to scenes, you're a douche!
2. LOL DO U NOT LIEK FUN? STOP PICKIN' NITS
3. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried, because I said you couldn't be more wrong if you tried! Take my word for it!
So, establishing a position, explaining why, and then trying to put that in context to what people like me and Tookay are actually saying is vital going forward.
While I agree, what really need to happen is that people need to stop making personal attacks in response to other posters' criticism of a movie. Wish that wouldn't have to be said in a thread on GAF.
EliteArtist
Member
Well, straight origins without the main villain (Spider-bite, learning powers, uncle ben killed, etc), it spends much more time on the initial Peter Parker character. Raimi's films were more focused on getting through the origins quickly. This one is more deliberate showing what Peter believes in and how typical a teenager he is. Then there's the spider bite and the following learning powers bit. I like this approach more to Raimi's. Some people will say it drags along and that they should have spent more time on him learning his powers, but again, I like this approach more.
yup pretty much what I meant. Im also sure there's others.
thehypocrite
Member
I still disagree with you when you said that the moment wasn't earned. In life this ain't earned either, it either happens or not, if you empathize or not will depend on the type of life you've experienced. In accordance to what I've experience this happens.
You're basically admitting that the movie didn't pander enough to your expectect receptors to make you feel that you should care about this character, however you aren't supposed to care about uncle Ben. The movie is about who is the man behind the mask, who is peter parker, what motivates him as an individual to be spiderman and do the things he does. Your expectations are missplaced, the movie wants you to understand Peter Parker, not to care for an old fart that dies 1 hour into the movie. This event is tied to the origins of spiderman, the hero everyone knows, there's no time to provide such thing, you'll never get that and I'm ok with that.
Peter cares because the only father that he could do something to mantain by his side died for his selfishness and stupidity. He had the power to save him, instead of doing something positive for the man that was his father most of his life, he was the catalyst that caused his death. That's a horrible feeling, which the viewer is quite capable of understanding/empathyzing within the movie. Don't see why is lost on you.
This uncle Ben incarnation is more natural than S-M 1 as well, did you presented the same complaints back then?
Thread is frustrating. Its a great, fun summer movie. Raimi has been bested by this in a 1v1 comparison for me which is impressive considering ive already seen half this movie before. The emotional scenes went over well for me. Teenagers can behave that way especially passive aggressive guys. Special effects were goid, fight scenes were 100 times better than raimis, set design was better. Imo just a better film across the board. Well worth the money and time. Will buy on bluray for sure.
If we are to understand Peter and his emotions, then we should - by extension - understand and care about his father figure.
And if there's "no time to provide such a thing" as caring about an essential character death and formative character moment, then this movie's priorities are really misplaced. That half-assed "going through the motions because we have to" feeling is exactly what's wrong with this film.
The rest of the stuff you're saying was stuff I was supposed to feel, yes, but due to the clumsy nature of the acting, directing, and writing, didn't.
I roughly agree. My wife dragged me to see this a second time because she loved the romantic story. This has much superior acting, superior action, better dialogue, and a setting that felt closer to the original Stan Lee source material in tone (though not in all specifics of the plot, the stuff about the parents is obviously added).
Shame about the score. Fire Horner.
Except that has pretty much less than zero relationship to what is going on here in this discussion. In life, the level of emotional response you feel for someone is generally related to how well we know that person. It's human nature. You spent however long developing your relationship with your Dad, and naturally because you had that history you understood at least some of what made him a person, his nuances, his good parts and bad parts. He was, in short, a real human being.
Movies have to do this too in order to earn emotional heft, and they have the harder task of trying to get you to feel for characters in a 2 hour span. But just because the task is harder does not mean it's even close to impossible: movies do it all the time. TAS simply doesn't, for the reasons I've stated.
I don't want you to take offense at what I'm going to say, because I mean it as gently as possible because it's horrible what you went through: you have had a certain life experience that makes you especially sensitive to issues having to do with murder, no doubt. By definition, and without the normally negative implications that are associated with the word, you would be more easily manipulated by moments that involve such a thing, even if those moments were not earned for most of the rest of the audience. Objectively, it's not the rest of the audience that is having a problem judging the scene: it's you.
What? If I'm not supposed to care about Ben (good news: I don't), then you can't expect me to feel anything when he dies. Like I said, Andrew Garfield's crying face was hilarious too and the dialogue leading up to this moment and in it was awful, so it was just a worthless scene for me. It literally only existed for a catalyst for Parker's growth. That may be fine enough for you, granted, but my standards call for me to ask for more than just cliche-ridden shallow shit.
That you're OK that the movie has bad writing and thus makes it impossible to care about Uncle Ben simply illustrates my point here. My expectations are not "misplaced." Once again, it is pretty easy to demonstrate that yours are.
Again, you're just making stunning leaps of conclusion. Any inbred retard could understand what you just said in this paragraph, because the writing was infantile, regurgitated after-school crap. They practically explicitly state it like an infinity times in the movie, even if it wasn't already stupidly obvious from, ya know, rubbing two brain cells together.
The point is NOT the intent; it's the execution. You like the execution, which is fine. I have no problem with that. I don't. The confusing thing is why you think this is a failure of understanding instead of difference in taste.
Not on GAF, but yes. I don't find Spider-Man 1 to be a particularly special movie. And Uncle Ben's character was similarly an empty husk. It's just that I actually have a problem with that.
I watch tons of films that don't require that of me. I'm not going to arbitrarily lower my standards when there is no reason to. I don't have to pick/choose... because other movies allow for all aspects to be great.
Edit: I'm going to sleep now, so if you respond I'll get back to you when I wake up at 5:30(AM)
Behind the scenes of the high school battle (Warning: Spoilers).
It's a fascinating dissection worth viewing. I had no idea the entire sequence was created with computer generated imagery.
It's a fascinating dissection worth viewing. I had no idea the entire sequence was created with computer generated imagery.
thehypocrite
Member
No, we don't we need to care about what his father figure represented to him. If one of your friends father whom you've never met dies, do you care about him or about the way your friends feels about his lost?
The viewer will never experience the 10+ years of life that Peter shared with his uncle, all the things he did for him to make him grow the way he did. A director would be wasting the time of everyone if the first hour of the movie is Peter and uncle Ben holding hands.
You can see how influential this lost is on Peter with the Bridge scene, strong emotions flare up right there.
You keep thinking this needs to be built up in some extremely drawn-out fashion and that it's a chore to do this.
Up (a film that I don't even particularly love) did it in its opening 5-10 minutes. Probably the same amount of screentime as Peter and Uncle Ben were together in this one.
No, to really care about the death we DO need to care about Peter and Ben's relationship. What you described, witnessing the death of a friend's father, is entirely different. In a narrative work we need to be involved and incorporated, not just voyeurs.
I was thinking the same thing. The untextured model is almost more impressive. At least when you see how much detail actually went into it.
Another thing that stuck out to me:
Do NYPD not have helicopters?
Do NYPD not have helicopters?
Well that's rhetorical because I know they do, they use it a few times in the movie and Captain Stacy rides one towards the end.
Where were they during the last fight? Why wasn't there one spotting and assisting Spidey/Cpt Stacy, and able to lift him to the hospital asap? It's like everyone helped Spidey with the crane thing (including the helicopter), patted themselves on the back, and called it a day.
Where were they during the last fight? Why wasn't there one spotting and assisting Spidey/Cpt Stacy, and able to lift him to the hospital asap? It's like everyone helped Spidey with the crane thing (including the helicopter), patted themselves on the back, and called it a day.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Did my part with an edit.... sorry.
Thanks but now I know
That's what I'm saying!
Even during the crane thing, wasn't there a copter putting a spotlight on Spidey? Why couldn't he latch on and have it carry him over?
Just saw the movie a few hours ago. Thought it was greater than any of the Raimi films, although I did enjoy them. The Lizard looks even more like a live-action goomba in the movie. When he smiled I could not stop laughing. His voice combined with his giant muscular naked physique reminded me of Killface from Frisky Dingo, which did not help the laughter situation.
All in all, way better than I thought it would be. Just don't bother seeing it in 3D, nevertheless Imax 3D. Was super disappointed except for a scene or two. Next one needs to be shot in 3D if I am going to go $16 in again.
Real Movie Spoilers
I thought that that they spent a good amount of time showing Peter evolving into Spider-Man. As well as showing a good amount of him before he got his powers. I don't think he even got his web shooters until about an hour in. But it didn't feel like they were dragging it out either.
All in all, way better than I thought it would be. Just don't bother seeing it in 3D, nevertheless Imax 3D. Was super disappointed except for a scene or two. Next one needs to be shot in 3D if I am going to go $16 in again.
Real Movie Spoilers
Kind of worried in the direction they are going to take it in with the whole Peter's father thing, and how some of the trailers said "did you think it was an accident?" or something. Loved Flash Thompson, and how he is a Spider-Man fan like in the comics. Wondering if they are going to introduce Harry when Peter goes to college too.
I thought that that they spent a good amount of time showing Peter evolving into Spider-Man. As well as showing a good amount of him before he got his powers. I don't think he even got his web shooters until about an hour in. But it didn't feel like they were dragging it out either.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
thehypocrite
Member
Ok, to have the discussion moving forward as we disagree on this point I would like to ask you how you would have done it differently.
No offense taken, this is a rather likely scenario, because of my experiences of what actually happens I don't find hilarious horribad, unrealistic and contrived as you and tookay. I will leave the rest of the audience off the argument as they aren't here to actually express what they felt.Amir0x said:
On the other hand Maybe I'm just more receptive to subjectively appreciate what's the vision behind the execution than you. It feels flat on you and tookay because your expectations of what it needed to happened are so narrow that its too difficult for you to accept what Webb tried to do. You want to go to the theater and act like armchair directors instead of audiences, thus bringing down your enjoyment. THis isn't me telling to shut down your brains, is to view, digest and pass judgement after.
Can you give examples of which are the lines of dialog in specific that were awful, I didn't that impression.Amir0x said:
That's all that it needs to be, a Catalyst cause the one that truly cares about uncle Ben death is Peter Parker, he is the one that's filled by guilt & regrets, not us.Amir0x said:
Can you provide some examples of this "bad writing" you're referring above.Amir0x said:
so you do understand but you aren't satisfied with the execution? it seems the problem is that your extremely high standards get in the way of enjoyment. if you understood the intent the execution is at least fine and not hilariously horribad as you posted before. which is it?Amir0x said:
QUOTE=Amir0x]
Not on GAF, but yes. I don't find Spider-Man 1 to be a particularly special movie. And Uncle Ben's character was similarly an empty husk. It's just that I actually have a problem with that.
I watch tons of films that don't require that of me. I'm not going to arbitrarily lower my standards when there is no reason to. I don't have to pick/choose... because other movies allow for all aspects to be great.
Edit: I'm going to sleep now, so if you respond I'll get back to you when I wake up at 5:30(AM)[/QUOTE]
At least you're consistent so I respect that, however I also watch 100s of films/movies every year and no movie is perfect, none so I would like to know which other movies you are referring to above. Great & Good movies also have a place in the world, not all movies should aim to be the same or do things the same way.
who watches Spiderman to see uncle Ben? ........crickets.
Okay. Talking about the post-ending scene.
The "mystery man" is shown holding a hat.
At the beginning of the movie, Peter is playing hide-and-seek. He looks behind a curtain because slippers are sticking out from the bottom, but no one's there, but there is a broom and a hat. The same kind the mystery man holds.
Perhaps Chameleon then? Disguises are his specialty, and his plot involves Peter's parents.
At the beginning of the movie, Peter is playing hide-and-seek. He looks behind a curtain because slippers are sticking out from the bottom, but no one's there, but there is a broom and a hat. The same kind the mystery man holds.
Perhaps Chameleon then? Disguises are his specialty, and his plot involves Peter's parents.
It's already shot in 3D. In fact, it's the first movie to be shot with those Epic RED 3D cameras.
The Amazing Spider-Man is still the best movie this year for me, and yup, I have seen The Avengers already.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's ironic, because it's starting to seem like legitimate 3D shooting = subtle 3D effect.
Whereas with post-production 3D, they can just crank it up to be as exciting (annoying?) as they want to...
The 3D was "lacking" only because there werent that many scenes to use it in a "wow!" manner. Each time he was swinging or doing Spiderman shit, the 3D worked.
wtf at
wtf at
the ending shot though, web was coming towards the screen in slow-mo and they cut it way too fast when it was barely gettin out, I literally laughed out loud.
The 3D application in the
was one of the more impressive experiences in film I've had ever. The depth led to a scene that felt legitimately small, and made Spidey's manoeuvring in that environment all the more impressive - subsequently,
so much so, I just can't see that scene working as obviously desired in 2D.
The movie had a very subtle 3D application outside of the fight scenes, though; so much so at times you could take the glasses off and watch it as if it was a 2D film - there'd be little-to-no separation.
hallway fight scene
the fight in the music room being just as impressive, if not a bit more -
The movie had a very subtle 3D application outside of the fight scenes, though; so much so at times you could take the glasses off and watch it as if it was a 2D film - there'd be little-to-no separation.
Damn, really? I thought it was done in post production. Now that I check up on it I guess it was filmed on the RED camera in 3D.
That is actually what made me think it was done in post production. The trailers always showed the building falling over and hitting the screen.
It's not that. I felt that a lot of the action scenes didn't even use it that well. Some of the swinging did look great though.
But it isn't that I thought it was subtle in most scenes, it was that it seemed non-existent. Like some scenes just weren't filmed in 3D. I know that some people think "Do we really need to see Aunt May talk to Uncle Ben in 3D?" The answer is yes, if you are going with a 3D movie. The use of 3D in movies (after it was largely used as a gimmick) was to draw you in even further into the film. With it being seemingly nonexistent in the non-action scenes, it makes it feel like a gimmick again. Like "These scenes are exciting because there is stuff flying at you.
I thought Prometheus did a decent job at having the 3D that is noticeable, but not distracting. Awful movie though.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah. I liken paying extra for 3D like paying extra for surround sound. I want it there, but for extra money?? Not really worth it.
Then again, I've paid the premium for it twice (and I'm sure others have paid more times), so if the value of a service is whatever people are willing to pay for it, then I guess it has its place.....
it might be chameleon, that way they could never really have to deal with the death of Gwen Stacy, unless they wanna change how she dies from the comics
Tizoc
Member
Huh I thought that guy at the end was
.
I didn't think the movie was bad but...it could've been better, didn't like the pacing very much and Garfield's performance left much to be desired IMO.
I just hope they don't kill Gwen in a future movie =_=
Had some neat scenes and
I personally think Spiderman 1 is better, but this movie wasn't all that bad.
Norman Osborn
I didn't think the movie was bad but...it could've been better, didn't like the pacing very much and Garfield's performance left much to be desired IMO.
I just hope they don't kill Gwen in a future movie =_=
Had some neat scenes and
Stan's scene is friggin' brilliant
I personally think Spiderman 1 is better, but this movie wasn't all that bad.
You're forgetting
Lizard talks to his "dark side" the same way Norman Osborne does in Spidey 1.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
I saw ASM earlier today, and the best word I can come up with to describe it is 'decent'. It's weird because I think they got a lot of the small stuff really right: The swinging, wise-cracking Spider-man, great cast, nice additions to the origin story, detailed connection between Spidey and Lizard, etc. But ASM is just not an overall good movie (IMO). Yes, some of the key parts are great. I personally love this vision of Spider-Man (himself), and I would be more then pleased to have him in the next Avengers. But nothing in the movie has any real weight. You have
that result in very little emotional impact, a villian that misses out on countless amount of potential by turning into a saturday morning cartoon monster with little depth and little reason to care about it (after transformation) besides how cool it looks, and a cringe-worthy crane scene that somehow makes Raimi's New York garbage throwing and train full of secret keepers scenes look oscar-worthy.
Even the relationships ASM gets right (Peter and Gwen, Peter and Connors, and Peter and Uncle Ben) lead to sour ending moments that fail to give the thump that is expected or even provided by Raimi's Spiderman 1. And while the main cast is great, the characters ASM ends up missing on (Captain Stacy, Aunt May, Flash, and Connor's Lizard) seem to stand at the forefront of my memory of ASM. These are characters that are either one-dimensional, flippy-floppy attitudes (with no substantial reason), or don't reach the potential relationships that are expected from such a character in the Spiderman universe. I will give Aunt May credit though, because she was involved in quite possibly the most resounding scene emotionally in the film,
. As for the fight scenes, while they were absolutely awesome to look at and seemed well choreographed, nothing came close to having the same impact of Raimi's Doc Oak's train fight or even the moss-filled building fight with Green Goblin.
Overall, I enjoyed watching ASM and I'm cautiously excited for the sequel. But, while I can't quite put my finger on the main problem here (the script and the score maybe?), ASM is not the superior origin story it could have been, and is a few notches below SM1 and quite a few steps away from SM2 (though admittedly tons better then SM3).
SM2>>SM1>>ASM>>>>>>>>>SM3
Edit: One thing that was irritating to me was the extreme similarities and (in a few cases) blatant stolen scenes/ideas from Raimi's SpiderMan 1.
And more I can't think of right now.
Edit 2: Stan's cameo might just be the best scene of the whole movie. I just wish it would of lasted 5-10 seconds longer.
two deaths
Even the relationships ASM gets right (Peter and Gwen, Peter and Connors, and Peter and Uncle Ben) lead to sour ending moments that fail to give the thump that is expected or even provided by Raimi's Spiderman 1. And while the main cast is great, the characters ASM ends up missing on (Captain Stacy, Aunt May, Flash, and Connor's Lizard) seem to stand at the forefront of my memory of ASM. These are characters that are either one-dimensional, flippy-floppy attitudes (with no substantial reason), or don't reach the potential relationships that are expected from such a character in the Spiderman universe. I will give Aunt May credit though, because she was involved in quite possibly the most resounding scene emotionally in the film,
where Peter returns at the end with the eggs he promised earlier in the movie but forgot
Overall, I enjoyed watching ASM and I'm cautiously excited for the sequel. But, while I can't quite put my finger on the main problem here (the script and the score maybe?), ASM is not the superior origin story it could have been, and is a few notches below SM1 and quite a few steps away from SM2 (though admittedly tons better then SM3).
SM2>>SM1>>ASM>>>>>>>>>SM3
Edit: One thing that was irritating to me was the extreme similarities and (in a few cases) blatant stolen scenes/ideas from Raimi's SpiderMan 1.
- Shopkeeper asking Peter why he didn't stop the robber, and Peter replying with a smart remark referencing the diss the shopkeeper gave Peter a few seconds ago.
- Uncle Ben shot the same way in the exact same region.
- Doctor Connors friends with Peter/respects Peter like a son A.K.A. Defoe's Green Goblin.
- Conversations with Lizard darkside and Green Goblin darkside.
- Captain Stacy dinner where they debate Spider-man/Green Goblin dinner where they debate Spiderman (for christ's sake they even look alike).
- Captain Stacy dying by pointy objects in chest like Green Goblin
- Stacy while dying telling Peter to leave Gwen out of his live /Green Goblin tells Peter to take care of Harry while dying.
- funeral scene leading to Peter rejecting the girl
- ending with "Who Am I?' line.
- Uncle Ben shot the same way in the exact same region.
- Doctor Connors friends with Peter/respects Peter like a son A.K.A. Defoe's Green Goblin.
- Conversations with Lizard darkside and Green Goblin darkside.
- Captain Stacy dinner where they debate Spider-man/Green Goblin dinner where they debate Spiderman (for christ's sake they even look alike).
- Captain Stacy dying by pointy objects in chest like Green Goblin
- Stacy while dying telling Peter to leave Gwen out of his live /Green Goblin tells Peter to take care of Harry while dying.
- funeral scene leading to Peter rejecting the girl
- ending with "Who Am I?' line.
And more I can't think of right now.
Edit 2: Stan's cameo might just be the best scene of the whole movie. I just wish it would of lasted 5-10 seconds longer.
What do you guys think about the soundtrack?
I find it weirdly intreaguing, especially the theme. It has something imediatly classic about it without being too simple.
That Coldplay song came out of nowhere and didn't really fit, mostly because it was the only non-score piece of music I think.
edit:
Yep. It's also one of the best Stan cameo.
I find it weirdly intreaguing, especially the theme. It has something imediatly classic about it without being too simple.
That Coldplay song came out of nowhere and didn't really fit, mostly because it was the only non-score piece of music I think.
edit:
Yep. It's also one of the best Stan cameo.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
Outside of the main theme, there wasn't anything particularly memorable (in a good way at least). It's a shame that the main theme was wasted on such a cringe inducing scene like the cranes.
100% Stan's best cameo.
THE-Pink-Dagger
Member
I've seen an interview about the 3D in TASM and like I thought, they played with it, varying the depth, with very little depth for most non-action scenes and unleashing its full potential in action scenes or webslinging ones.
some of these are from the comics, others are you reaching
dying by pointy thing c'mon, lol
Why
Also, are we supposed to believe Ben and think that
did Peter Parker get into a fight with a couple thugs in an alley, then have a half a dozen guys come out various doors spread throughout several different buildings to come after him? Why did nobody question Peter Parker bending a football post with a ball he tossed one-handed? Why were they storing liquid nitrogen on the roof? Why did Peter think he could do anything useful in a fight against The Lizard when he could barely swing across town?
Also, are we supposed to believe Ben and think that
Parker humiliating Flash was wrong? Within the confines of school rules, that's the only thing Parker could do to fight back against a bully that should have been expelled for serious violence.
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