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[dramatis]

Tech companies are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to improve conditions for female employees. Here’s why not much has changed—and what might actually work.

One reason her career had gone so well, [Blount] thinks, is that she’d made a point of ignoring slights and oafish comments. Awkward silences, too. Over the years, she’s experienced—many times—the sensation of walking up to a group of male colleagues and noticing that they fell quiet, as though they’d been talking about something they didn’t want her to hear. She’s been asked to take notes in meetings. She’s found herself standing in elevators at tech conferences late at night when a guy would decide to get, as she puts it, handsy. When she and a male partner started a company, potential investors almost always directed their questions to him—even when the subject clearly fell in Blount’s area of expertise. It drove him crazy, and Blount had to urge him to curb his irritation. “I didn’t have time to be pissed,” she says.

But at some point, something inside her broke. Maybe it was being at tech conferences and hearing herself, the “elder stateswoman,” warning younger women to cover their drinks, because such conferences—known for alcohol, after-parties, and hot women at product booths—have been breeding grounds for unwanted sexual advances and assaults, and you never knew whether some jerk might put something in your cocktail. She couldn’t believe that women still had to worry about such things; that they still got asked to fetch coffee; that she still heard talk about how hiring women or people of color entailed “lowering the bar”; that women still, often, felt silenced or attacked when expressing opinions online.

For women of color, the cumulative effect of these slights is compounded by a striking lack of racial diversity—and all that attends it. Stephanie Lampkin, who was a full-stack developer (meaning she had mastered both front-end and back-end systems) by age 15 and majored in engineering at Stanford, has been told when applying for a job that she’s “not technical enough” and should consider sales or marketing—an experience many white women in the field can relate to. But she has also, for instance, been told by a white woman at a conference that her name ought to be Ebony because of the color of her skin.

Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economist, told me that tech would seem to be an attractive field for women, since many companies promise the same advantages—flexibility and reasonable hours—that have drawn women in droves to other professions that were once nearly all male. The big tech companies also offer family-friendly perks like generous paid parental leave; new moms at Google, for instance, get 22 paid weeks. “These should be the best jobs for people who want predictability and flexibility,” Goldin said. “So what’s happening?”

A report by the Center for Talent Innovation found that when women drop out of tech, it’s usually not for family reasons. Nor do they drop out because they dislike the work—to the contrary, they enjoy it and in many cases take new jobs in sectors where they can use their technical skills. Rather, the report concludes that “workplace conditions, a lack of access to key creative roles, and a sense of feeling stalled in one’s career” are the main reasons women leave. “Undermining behavior from managers” is a major factor.

The hostility of the culture is such an open secret that tweets and essays complaining of sexism tend to begin with a disclaimer acknowledging how shopworn the subject feels. “My least favorite topic in the world is ‘Women in Tech,’ so I am going to make this short,” wrote one blogger, noting that after she started speaking at conferences and contributing to open-source projects, she began to get threatening and abusive emails, including from men who said they “jerked off to my conference talk video.” Another woman tweeted that, while waiting to make a presentation at Pubcon, a prestigious conference, she was told by a male attendee, “Don’t be nervous. You’re hot! No one expects you to do well.”

And then there are the public utterances that reveal what some leading men in tech think of women and their abilities. When Sir Michael Moritz, the chair of Sequoia Capital, one of Silicon Valley’s most venerable venture-capital firms, was asked by a Bloomberg reporter why the firm had no female investing partners in the U.S., he responded, “We look very hard,” adding that the firm had “hired a young woman from Stanford who’s every bit as good as her peers.” But, he added, “what we’re not prepared to do is to lower our standards.”

Afterward, a group of seven senior women in tech conducted the “Elephant in the Valley” survey. Eighty-four percent of the respondents had been told they were too aggressive; 66 percent had felt excluded from key networking opportunities because of their gender; 90 percent had witnessed sexist behavior at conferences and company off-site meetings; 88 percent had had clients and colleagues direct questions to male peers that should have been addressed to them; and 60 percent had fended off unwanted sexual advances (in most cases from a superior). Of those women, one-third said they had feared for their personal safety.

Because Silicon Valley is a place where a newcomer can unseat the most established player, many people there believe—despite evidence everywhere to the contrary—that tech is a meritocracy. Ironically enough, this very belief can perpetuate inequality. A 2010 study, “The Paradox of Meritocracy in Organizations,” found that in cultures that espouse meritocracy, managers may in fact “show greater bias in favor of men over equally performing women.” In a series of three experiments, the researchers presented participants with profiles of similarly performing individuals of both genders, and asked them to award bonuses. The researchers found that telling participants that their company valued merit-based decisions only increased the likelihood of their giving higher bonuses to the men.

Such bias may be particularly rife in Silicon Valley because of another of its foundational beliefs: that success in tech depends almost entirely on innate genius. Nobody thinks that of lawyers or accountants or even brain surgeons; while some people clearly have more aptitude than others, it’s accepted that law school is where you learn law and that preparing for and passing the CPA exam is how you become a certified accountant. Surgeons are trained, not born. In contrast, a 2015 study published in Science confirmed that computer science and certain other fields, including physics, math, and philosophy, fetishize “brilliance,” cultivating the idea that potential is inborn. The report concluded that these fields tend to be problematic for women, owing to a stubborn assumption that genius is a male trait.

But there’s a problem. Unconscious-bias training may not work. Some think it could even backfire. Though the approach is much more congenial than the “sensitivity training” popular in the 1980s and ’90s—in which white men were usually cast as villains—it suffers from the same problem: People resent being made to sit in a chair and listen to somebody telling them how to act. Forcing them to do so can provoke the fundamental human urge to reply: No thanks, I’ll do the opposite.

When I mentioned this conversation to Bethanye Blount, who is a former Facebook employee (and thinks it’s a great place to work), she laughed at the “presuming good intent” part. “They’re catering to the engineers,” Blount said—engineers constituting a coveted and often sensitive cohort who like to think of themselves as “special snowflakes” and whom Facebook is smart to handle with care. One of the unspoken advantages of unconscious-bias training is that in an environment where companies are competing for talent, it promises to help attract talented women without scaring away talented men.

The article is long (there's an audio version that apparently runs for 50 min), but well worth the read.

I think it'll take some more time (possibly forever). Oftentimes it might seem like fighting against racism or sexism are hopeless endeavors because of how hard it is to change hearts, but chipping away in various directions—not solely one solution—may be helpful in eroding those influences. If Silicon Valley prides itself on being innovative and a seat where the future is built, then surely it can apply its brilliance to the fight for more equality (this too may be a wishful thought).

 

[Morrigan Stark]

As a woman in tech I feel ridiculously lucky to not have experienced any of this. I must be in that lucky 10% or something. It's just awful that this industry is still so regressive.

The "why" part is especially illuminating. "Fetishizing genius" sure explains a lot...

 

[Beartruck]

It is unbelievably shitty that women have to put up with that. If somebody said "Get me some coffee toots" I'd bring them a cup dosed with ipecac. I would not last long.

 

[Cyanity]

But I thought racism and sexism were over?

 

[Laevateinn]

This sort of thing is terrible. My company is heavily invested in getting young girls interested in tech but the whole world is pushing against them. A woman who makes it against every slight, minor or major, is truly remarkable and gets tons of respect from me. I wish engineers weren't in general such shitheads though.

 

[Messofanego]

Oh for a second, I thought this was about the TV show and was thinking it has been pretty good to women. Better than the reality.

 

[VeryGooster]

Will read in a sec but man I actually sat down the other day and read through that blog post about a woman's year at Uber and some of the stuff she detailed is just insane. https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber

 

[Viewt]

It's fucked up. I've done tons of interviews, only to be told by (thankfully former) co-workers that we wouldn't be moving forward with a female candidate because "she doesn't seem like a good cultural fit." When pressed, this almost always turned into, "she seems too bossy" or "I don't think she's smart enough." No lie, a woman was once disqualified from moving forward because someone was worried that they were too pretty, and it would distract the men in the department.

Being a good "cultural fit" is important, but it's often used as an excuse to keep the office white, straight, and male.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

After years of working with developers, the simple answer is that many of them are TERRIFIED of women. Poor social skills and a weird beta-macho culture between them. HR are usually the ones pushing to hire more women, but they rely on senior devs in the interview process because the specifics are too much for their tiny HR brains to handle.

 

[Gattsu25]

Will read in a sec but man I actually sat down the other day and read through that blog post about a woman's year at Uber and some of the stuff she detailed is just insane. https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber

Yeeeap. This blog post is required reading for some context.

 

[zou]

"key creative roles" - What are they referring to? Unless I'm misunderstanding their usage, tech isn't really the best sector for that?

 

[bggrthnjsus]

um actually

 

[SeanC]

I went in thinking it's because it's mostly white men (and the occasional anime love pillow) that run the tech industry and that's what I got.

Not surprising. There's a lot of closed doors for women everywhere but the tech/computer industry seems far more entrenched in it through systematic sexism cultivated over decades.

 

[Jonnax]

"key creative roles" - What are they referring to? Unless I'm misunderstanding their usage, tech isn't really the best sector for that?

Software Design and Architecture I'd argue are quite creative roles.

 

[Laevateinn]

It's fucked up. I've done tons of interviews, only to be told by (thankfully former) co-workers that we wouldn't be moving forward with a female candidate because "she doesn't seem like a good cultural fit." When pressed, this almost always turned into, "she seems too bossy" or "I don't think she's smart enough." No lie, a woman was once disqualified from moving forward because someone was worried that they were too pretty, and it would distract the men in the department.

Being a good "cultural fit" is important, but it's often used as an excuse to keep the office white, straight, and male.

We had this exact thing happen in my grad school lab but the person who said it, out lab's co-advisor, was a woman. We eventually did get a woman but she's stuck in thesis limbo because they won't give her a real project.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

"key creative roles" - What are they referring to? Unless I'm misunderstanding their usage, tech isn't really the best sector for that?

Hm? Creative is critical. UX/UI, marketing, etc. All critical to making it.

 

[VeryGooster]

But at some point, something inside her broke. Maybe it was being at tech conferences and hearing herself, the ”elder stateswoman," warning younger women to cover their drinks, because such conferences—known for alcohol, after-parties, and hot women at product booths—have been breeding grounds for unwanted sexual advances and assaults, and you never knew whether some jerk might put something in your cocktail. She couldn't believe that women still had to worry about such things; that they still got asked to fetch coffee; that she still heard talk about how hiring women or people of color entailed ”lowering the bar"; that women still, often, felt silenced or attacked when expressing opinions online.

eaaaaaaaat shit

Christ

 

[LucidMomentum]

"key creative roles" - What are they referring to? Unless I'm misunderstanding their usage, tech isn't really the best sector for that?

Have you ever had to take the ramblings of a client and actually translate it into a functional tech demo or even define a scope of work from said ramblings?

It's a goddam work of art.

um actually

Hmm?

 

[ZackieChan]

We had this exact thing happen in my grad school lab but the person who said it, out lab's co-advisor, was a woman. We eventually did get a woman but she's stuck in thesis limbo because they won't give her a real project.

Hopefully she's not TOO attractive, or you'll never get any work done

 

[Jokab]

Hopefully she's not TOO attractive, or you'll never get any work done

Meh, we all know that boobs are evidence enough that men can focus on two things at once

 

[zoku88]

When the company I worked was doing a big diversity push, there was definitely some employees who automatically equated that to lowering standards.

 

[zou]

Hm? Creative is critical. UX/UI, marketing, etc. All critical to making it.

None of those are engineering or developer positions though. So not really the best place to look for.

 

[iavi]

When the company I worked was doing a big diversity push, there was definitely some employees who automatically equated that to lowering standards.

it should be about hiring the best person for the job, not hiring to tick checkboxes.

/s

 

[zou]

Software Design and Architecture I'd argue are quite creative roles.

I would agree, but is that what they mean with "(key) creative roles"? To me that refers to creative jobs, not dev/tech/engineering jobs involving creativity.

 

[Strangelove77]

Oh for a second, I thought this was about the TV show and was thinking it has been pretty good to women. Better than the reality.

I loved The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.

 

[SlimySnake]

There is a superiority complex among coders especially those who get to go Silicon Valley. They look down on anyone who cant keep up with the big boys. Comp sci majors also dont attract many women so their interactions with women are somewhat limited. I wouldnt be surprised if they just havent met many smart women.

 

[Hari Seldon]

They need to diversify the hell out of silicon valley. That is the source of the problem. Too many weirdos concentrated in one place creates a feedback loop of people who don't know how to not converse appropriately with other human beings.

 

[The Last Wizard]

I went in thinking it's because it's mostly white men (and the occasional anime love pillow) that run the tech industry and that's what I got.

Not surprising. There's a lot of closed doors for women everywhere but the tech/computer industry seems far more entrenched in it through systematic sexism cultivated over decades.

Seems to be the common denominator.

 

[CrocMother]

There is a superiority complex among coders especially those who get to go Silicon Valley. They look down on anyone who cant keep up with the big boys. Comp sci majors also dont attract many women so their interactions with women are somewhat limited. I wouldnt be surprised if they just havent met many smart women.

Or like any women at all.

 

[Vegetable Lasagna]

Basement dwellers get rich and hold grudges.

 

[Kinitari]

I volunteer teach women web development, with the express goal of seeding the industry with more women. I was actually surprised at the amount of people who seem almost... Offended? That I was doing this? The least crazy things people will say are 'but why not teach men too?' and that, I can usually at least talk about and almost everyone can be reasoned through the process (the initiative is specifically aimed at reaching out to underrepresented groups in the industry, I have no issue teaching men and I look forward to doing so in the future specifically in low income areas, etc etc). Some people say stuff like 'but aren't we just lowering the bar?' - which is actually annoying. I usually just respond with something like 'I knew less than half of what these women know when they come into my class, when I got my first job', but that doesn't seem to satisfy the people who ask that question.

There are people who think that only individuals who claw their way into the industry exhausted and demoralized deserve to be in it, and a lot of those people just don't believe women 'have what it takes' to do that. They see any efforts to improve the environment for the sake of women as either... Watering down the care free boys club with a bunch of 'rules', or like if they had to suffer, everyone else should.

The sadder stuff comes from the men who have a lot of pain and issues when it comes to women, and see the industry as a safe haven. I don't really know what to say to guys like this. One guy... I feel bad for him, he isn't mean or bad to women, he's just really scared of them. But he's in the minority.

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

Basement dwellers get rich and hold grudges.

God that's a scary thought LOL

 

[Somnid]

It unfortunately will not improve anytime soon. Probably at least a generation for new women to go through and get careers in software and hopefully improve the awful gender ratio. It's too easy for a small company of all men to treat it like a gentleman's club, these companies typically de-prioritize HR for engineering letting it lag for far too long and once they hit growth have a bunch of nasty problems and people they've built up. Even if you are to size, having an executive team or other siloed areas that are all male can still produce similar patterns. This is a catch-22 because women don't want to be there because it's hostile, and that just lets it continue to fester. Then you get just the typical sexism/behavioral stuff present in all other businesses.

As someone in the industry I think the most that can be done right now is to call it out if you see it. You might not see it, but there's no reason to let go of things in your purview. The other is to be sensitive. Don't assume anyone's comfort level, try to elevate their voices even if they elect not to speak, it's helpful even for shy men but might be additional pressure if you have stereotypes and biases hanging off you. Assume everyone you meet is at least as good as you are, if you see a woman at a conference they are a lead developer unless explained otherwise.

 

[Gallbaro]

My theory is the way this current generation learned. Males in this current generation learned in a desperate search for porn during their teenage years. Certainly how I learned most of my technical ability.

 

[Jokab]

I volunteer teach women web development, with the express goal of seeding the industry with more women. I was actually surprised at the amount of people who seem almost... Offended? That I was doing this? The least crazy things people will say are 'but why not teach men too?' and that, I can usually at least talk about and almost everyone can be reasoned through the process (the initiative is specifically aimed at reaching out to underrepresented groups in the industry, I have no issue teaching men and I look forward to doing so in the future specifically in low income areas, etc etc). Some people say stuff like 'but aren't we just lowering the bar?' - which is actually annoying. I usually just respond with something like 'I knew less than half of what these women know when they come into my class, when I got my first job', but that doesn't seem to satisfy the people who ask that question.

There are people who think that only individuals who claw their way into the industry exhausted and demoralized deserve to be in it, and a lot of those people just don't believe women 'have what it takes' to do that. They see any efforts to improve the environment for the sake of women as either... Watering down the care free boys club with a bunch of 'rules', or like if they had to suffer, everyone else should.

The sadder stuff comes from the men who have a lot of pain and issues when it comes to women, and see the industry as a safe haven. I don't really know what to say to guys like this. One guy... I feel bad for him, he isn't mean or bad to women, he's just really scared of them. But he's in the minority.

This is so sad to hear, but not surprising.

The most common retort I hear when I discuss feminism, gender equality and especially when it comes to initatives attempting to elevate women in tech, is that these people (these men) don't see any sexism, and therefore (apparently) it doesn't exist. They'll say things like "what I never treat any woman badly and I never see it, so what is the problem?" And then to any study or news articles or what have you where women tell of the sexism directed against them, they'll respond "they're just too sensitive, us men deal with this too!" - obviously not recognizing the sexism in that very statement. It just makes me tired - and I'm a man! I can't imagine what it's like for women having to deal with this shit all the time.

 

[entremet]

My theory is the way this current generation learned. Males in this current generation learned in a desperate search for porn during their teenage years. Certainly how I learned most of my technical ability.

This guy lol.

 

[kirblar]

My theory is the way this current generation learned. Males in this current generation learned in a desperate search for porn during their teenage years. Certainly how I learned most of my technical ability.

I don't think that's really it. A big issue is that men socialized around mainly other men are going to be looking for male traits (beyond the casual sexism issues) like overconfidence that they've come to see as "normal" behavior that aren't present in women.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There is a superiority complex among coders especially those who get to go Silicon Valley. They look down on anyone who cant keep up with the big boys. Comp sci majors also dont attract many women so their interactions with women are somewhat limited. I wouldnt be surprised if they just havent met many smart women.

Or they have but are unable or refuse to see them as smart for you know reasons...

 

[Gallbaro]

This guy lol.

56k erection.

I don't think that's really it. A big issue is that men socialized around mainly other men are going to be looking for male traits (beyond the casual sexism issues) like overconfidence that they've come to see as "normal" behavior that aren't present in women.

I have a small engineering team in the USA and do go out of my way to hire women. It's not impossible. But I did it early to avoid the brogrammers.

 

[TheTylerRob]

Does it boil down to tech guys wanting to take women down a peg for friend zoning them in highschool or should I read the whole thing?

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

It unfortunately will not improve anytime soon. Probably at least a generation for new women to go through and get careers in software and hopefully improve the awful gender ratio. It's too easy for a small company of all men to treat it like a gentleman's club, these companies typically de-prioritize HR for engineering letting it lag for far too long and once they hit growth have a bunch of nasty problems and people they've built up. Even if you are to size, having an executive team or other siloed areas that are all male can still produce similar patterns. This is a catch-22 because women don't want to be there because it's hostile, and that just lets it continue to fester. Then you get just the typical sexism/behavioral stuff present in all other businesses.

As someone in the industry I think the most that can be done right now is to call it out if you see it. You might not see it, but there's no reason to let go of things in your purview. The other is to be sensitive. Don't assume anyone's comfort level, try to elevate their voices even if they elect not to speak, it's helpful even for shy men but might be additional pressure if you have stereotypes and biases hanging off you. Assume everyone you meet is at least as good as you are, if you see a woman at a conference they are a lead developer unless explained otherwise.

This is basically it right now. The Tech industry isn't the only industry like this right now and at those higher levels in the work force the level of immaturity and entitlement is huge. They feel untouchable and act as such as well. HR basically is useless in regards to these issues and protect them as well. It's brutal when you're striving to make it and you actually see the reality of what goes on with these places.

 

[Zaru]

Is this specifically about Silicon Valley (the region) or is that term used like a synonym for the tech industry (specifically IT) ?

 

[Pau]

I volunteer teach women web development, with the express goal of seeding the industry with more women. I was actually surprised at the amount of people who seem almost... Offended?

For real. I told my coworker on a programming project that I was part of a career access program for women. He asked me why men weren't allowed when they needed help too.

This is the same coworker who told me he pays cam models who look like me to talk to him. All because I wore make up one day to the lab.

Or they have but are unable or refuse to see them as smart for you know reasons...

Yup. People like that treat smart women as if they're unicorns or something.

 

[Ray Down]

Oh for a second, I thought this was about the TV show and was thinking it has been pretty good to women. Better than the reality.

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought of this.

 

[Silav101]

Or like any women at all.

The people you are referring to have met women scads of times. What warps them is that, in general (due to societal reasons, in an ever-destructive spiral) their interactions with women, starting from elementary school, are not always good interactions. Any smart kid who went through school can tell you this.

I don't know why this idea keeps getting propagated. Women are half the human race. You can't choose to never deal with them unless you take a lot of effort.

 

[Pau]

The people you are referring to have met women scads of times. What warps them is that, in general (due to societal reasons, in an ever-destructive spiral) their interactions with women, starting from elementary school, are not always good interactions. Any smart kid who went through school can tell you this.

I don't know why this idea keeps getting propagated. Women are half the human race. You can't choose to never deal with them unless you take a lot of effort.

If you're only having bad interactions with 50% of the population throughout your whole life, you are most likely not having enough interactions with them. Small sample sizes and all.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

The people you are referring to have met women scads of times. What warps them is that, in general (due to societal reasons, in an ever-destructive spiral) their interactions with women, starting from elementary school, are not always good interactions. Any smart kid who went through school can tell you this.

I don't know why this idea keeps getting propagated. Women are half the human race. You can't choose to never deal with them unless you take a lot of effort.

You can totally minimize interactions with women. What are you talking about? In High school I took 2 computer programming classes. You know how many girls were in both of those classes combined? 3.

Ince you get to high school and beyond you really do not have ro socialize with the opposite sex. You can minimize your socialization with "people" in general.

And Jesus. I was a smart kid all throughout grade school. I didn't get shit on by the girls in my class. The implication that because you are smart you are going to be picked on is not true. Being smart and being socialy awkward are not traits that come in pairs.

This mentallity is exactly the shit people on the gaming side of the forum deny. Computer science, gaming, these have always been a safe haven for socially awkward or timid people to gravitate too. Now that it is diversifying there is a very obvious resistance to change and let others in

 

[kirblar]

The people you are referring to have met women scads of times. What warps them is that, in general (due to societal reasons, in an ever-destructive spiral) their interactions with women, starting from elementary school, are not always good interactions. Any smart kid who went through school can tell you this.

I don't know why this idea keeps getting propagated. Women are half the human race. You can't choose to never deal with them unless you take a lot of effort.

It's very easy not to have many women in your social circle.

 

[Silav101]

If you're only having bad interactions with 50% of the population throughout your whole life, you are most likely not having enough interactions with them. Small sample sizes and all.

This has little to do with sample sizes, and more to do with how each person processes (bad) interactions. Some are perpetually optimistic, but others only need some bad ones (or a few traumatic ones), to develop a bias that is pretty damn hard to shake off.

Sadly, most of these interactions occur early in life, and children and teenagers can be the cruelest of creatures.

It's very easy not to have many women in your social circle.

My context was people in school. You can self-select a male social circle, but you are still going to interact with women whether you like it or not, unless you go to an all-male school.

Edit edit: I would love to get into why there are so few women going into STEM, but that is completely out of the scope of both this thread, and would derail it!

 

[Pau]

This has little to do with sample sizes, and more to do with how each person processes (bad) interactions. Some are perpetually optimistic, but others only need some bad ones (or a few traumatic ones), to develop a bias that is pretty damn hard to shake off.

Sadly, most of these interactions occur early in life, and children and teenagers can be the cruelest of creatures.

That's still only some or a few interactions in which case they are basing their bias on a very small sample and then using those few interactions to generalize 50% of the population for the rest of their lives.

I do think that you're right that for quite a few men it's not the number of interactions but having a bias already in place since an early age so that nothing will change their minds. But that's them not being very smart and rational. And then they turn around and accuse us of not being smart and rational because of our gender.