I can sort of understand maybe being awkward around women if you were socially awkward with girls or even anyone in school, college etc. but when did being a totally jerk and worse happen to guys and outright blacklisting. No excuse for that and I would be raging at any colleague who had bad attitudes towards women.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Atlantic: Why Is Silicon Valley So Awful to Women?
- Thread starter dramatis
- Start date
- Status
You do realize how lucky you are? Anecdotal evidence, but 3 of my smart friends back in elementary were NOT treated well, and they were lucky I and my cousins (most female) stuck up for them, since they were a class below mine and I couldn't always look after them. I was also lucky that I could handle the bullying I got. Not everyone can or dares.
Of course people resist, most humans don't like things changing - especially when it impacts their sanctuary. It's sad that they are resisting this particular issue, since more people in these fields of endeavour should be welcomed, and not treated the way they are now.
That's still only some or a few interactions in which case they are basing their bias on a very small sample and then using those few interactions to generalize 50% of the population for the rest of their lives.
I do think that you're right that for quite a few men it's not the number of interactions but having a bias already in place since an early age so that nothing will change their minds. But that's them not being very smart and rational. And then they turn around and accuse us of not being smart and rational because of our gender.
Smart people can be the most stubborn, ornery dumbasses around haha~ After all, they're clever, so why would they change? /s
Some of the personality profiling going on here is a little confusing to me. I can't state this with any definitive evidence but often when these types of things occur at the workplace it's not socially awkward basement dwellers, it's usually college fratboys types. We call them "brogrammers" for a reason. Though I do know some people's private feelings can be easily hidden behind systemic walls which might give rise to the less public biases in hiring and management.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Black kid who was the only black child in my school for 8 years and one of like 3 black fanilies in a town of white people. And I was a straight A student from grade 1 to 12. It wasn't the girls that treated me like shit when I was young. It was the guys. Yet I don't magically harbour hate towards guys. You can't just form an argument that being smart means you were treated poorly by girls.
The argument was not that smarter kids dont get picked on. Its that if you were smart that was automatic bully material from girls. That is not founded in anything but anecdotes.
Most people dont like change. Most people also don't turn an entire career field into a toxic wasteland for women. There are serious problems with the environments fostered in STEM fields.
I believe its not just one type of personality. I think it's just men in general who go into this field. But I think it's amplified by the stereotypes that texh is for boys that get instilled at early ages.
Do you think that type of bullying is mostly gendered? Or do they also get bullied by boys. But because they have some male friends and no female friends they become automatically biased against all women and not all men?
As you say, it's mostly anecdotal evidence, and any anecdotal evidence is precisely that. I am glad you weathered your own crucible, though. A lot of people never really get over it, like one of my 3 old friends. The other 2 came out fine, thankfully.
I do think that my bad interactions statement was immediately translated into bullying...by bad interactions, I mean anything, and from my own experience growing up, girls could be way more cruel than the guy bullies, who would just beat you up. The girls had better ways of cutting you down, usually in public. But again, anecdotal.
With regards to your last statement, what can be done? They make scads of money, and they are entrenched. Sometimes, I think the only way it will change is when these ones retire and die off, and are replaced with better people.
I don't believe so, bullying is bullying. But I would say due to social expectations, any bad interactions with females last longer in your mind, as a guy. I could handle getting beat up, but lord were you laughed at if a girl cut you down or assaulted you. I cannot imagine I am alone in thinking that the last example is worse than getting smacked around in the field after school.
benicillin
Banned
Gotdatmoney
Member
My point was not to invalidate what happened to your friends. Or to say that cause O got bullied by guys that is worse ir anything. My main point was that being smart doesn't imply girls will be mean to you when you are young.
Bullies come in all shaoes and sizes and pick on all types of kids. Small, big, rich, poor, smart etc etc. We can't create one definition and use it to explain this entire phenomina.
First step is getting serious about HR departments handling harassment to women. You shouldn't even still be working at a place where you told your co worker not to worry about the presentation because she is hot and no one caresnwhat she is saying. That should be fucking instant termination.
Work places that make a committment to hiring women need to also make a commitment to making sure their environmrnt is actually somewhere they want to work.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
LOL yeah, never fails
Sir Alemeth
Member
My company has plenty of women and are all treated equally.
However, NONE of the women engineers are white women.
White women hates programming confirmed.
However, NONE of the women engineers are white women.
White women hates programming confirmed.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I'm white... >_>
But, well, I'm also the only female programmer at my workplace. The only other woman is (fortunately?) the office boss haha. She wouldn't let any sexist shit fly that's for sure. There was an Iranian woman programmer working with us but she recently got another job.
It didn't. You have to look at the men (and the source of the behaviors) because the women aren't oppressing themselves.
Laevateinn
Member
Pointing out that women are mistreated in STEM is the real oppression.
Sir Alemeth
Member
Nice.
That last sentence was a joke obviously.
But yeah, that's the environment of my work place. We have people of all backgrounds and culture, but no white women.
Because some people think that the oppression of women stems from men's oppression (negative experiences) with women when they are young. :/
At the end of the day, I don't think that the awfulness towards women in the tech space can be explained by boys being bullied by girls in school.
excelsiorlef
Member
Complains about personality profiling and then personality profiles another group...
I mean come on dude it's not surprise that this and the gaming community has almost identical issues...
Truth be told it's both groups....
gutter_trash
Banned
I'm in the game industry and the programming department is like 99.9% male.
Art and animation department barely crack over 15% women.
the only part of a game studio that has more women outnumbering men is the HR department
Art and animation department barely crack over 15% women.
the only part of a game studio that has more women outnumbering men is the HR department
excelsiorlef
Member
We can look at the source without framing it as it happens because girls are mean to smart boys so of course they'll hate and sexual harass women in the work place as adults.
In the end it's always a woman's fault....
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
This saddens me immensely because it had such a promising start. Way back in the 1970s when I started, IT was almost alone in the business world in having a roughly 50/50 male/female split both where I worked and everywhere else I visited. At all levels too.
It had everything going for it. Huge demand meant that there were few barriers to entry, there were nearly no Comp Sci degrees to provide indirect barriers to entry - women, men, grads and non-grads, old and young working together in, well, not exactly perfect harmony but the closest you can get to it in an office environment.
Only in the big manufacturers, the dinosaurs like IBM, were there clear old-school attitudes.
So what went so horribly wrong?
What went wrong is that networks got invented. You no longer had to be within 100 metres of a computer to operate it. You were no longer constrained by the size of the machine as to how many people could be working together (from about 5 up to about 200 usually) - all the little local organisations got outsourced, swallowed up, remote-operated and commuted-to. All the now-bigger organisations discovered they needed things that hadn't been needed before, like HR departments and officer-class middle management and policy booklets and rules and so on. All grist to the mill of the aspiring alpha male. And women left the business in droves as their jobs moved further away from their family.
And then the barriers to entry clanged up too. CompSci degrees, long hours, "flexibility" and more.
And there we are, we've gone and invented the dinosaur again, like that needed doing.
Such a shame.
EverythingShiny
Member
This is why I'm sticking with data analysis instead of programming full time. I still write code but I deal with a lot less sexist bullshit and there's a lot of flexibility in terms of what types of companies I can work for (right now I'm in healthcare and work with mostly all other women.) When I was looking for a job, several times I got the "not technical enough" bs even though I passed all the coding tests with flying colors.
Hats off to the women pioneers in this field. I definitely couldn't do what they're doing. I used to go to women in technology meetups all the time when I lived in Seattle and so many women have crazy stories.
Hats off to the women pioneers in this field. I definitely couldn't do what they're doing. I used to go to women in technology meetups all the time when I lived in Seattle and so many women have crazy stories.
cubicle47b
Member
Yeah, mix a superiority complex, early success (60% of programmers in Silicon Valley are under 30, 80% under 35), lack of experience with women, and all your peers being Asian or white males and it makes sense what kind of culture develops.
But I'm not complaining about the profiling, I'm asking if that's really the group you think it is. Frat culture is just a pervasive especially where the business end happens (and that's quite frankly most of VC), and those are usually the power positions, not just the ones that can abuse but also the ones that fail to enact safeguards.
Did you get those comments for data analysis jobs or just software programming ones?
I'm terrified of applying because I know I will freeze up on coding tests. Add that I'm a woman and I might as well not bother. :/ I got lucky that the only two jobs I applied for had either really easy coding tests (seriously it was add up all the numbers in an array) or the coding test was actually just statistical analysis.
Well, sure. Because the underlying assumption is that there is always a more qualified white male.
Here at my school (Computer Engineering Major) my generation is almost 90%-10% male female ratio. There are some groups about women in tech that do conferences, courses and even app development contests offered to women only, which is really cool. But I swear to god every time they post an event on the school facebook group, a lot of men come with comments like "But why are you excluding us!" or "Let's just create a mens only group haha!" and I'm like, dude, that's exactly what you are doing since you started school.
And the Uber story is just really sad to read. I'm glad that she found another job and hopefully that situation doesn't happen to her there.
And the Uber story is just really sad to read. I'm glad that she found another job and hopefully that situation doesn't happen to her there.
excelsiorlef
Member
Again it's probably both...
Messofanego
Banned
Looking back, Wu is struck by the countless times Ive had to move a mans hand from my thigh (or back or shoulder or hair or arm) during a meeting (or networking event or professional lunch or brainstorming session or pitch meeting) without seeming confrontational (or bitchy or rejecting or demanding or aggressive). In a land of grand ideas and grander funding proposals, she found that the ability to neatly reject a mans advances without injuring his ego is a pretty important skill that I would bet most successful women in our industry have.
So many fragile male assholes in all these industries.
Messofanego
Banned
On the point about money, the article ends with that being a big motivator in improving diversity relations.
Money is what ultimately talks, and when bonuses are tied to diversity
, they improve quite a bit. Obviously, if someone hasn't read the full article, they'll feel resentment over that where they still ignorantly disbelieve in unconscious biases and believe in the meritocracy fallacy.
But in the past couple of years, Intel decided to try a few other approaches, including hiring
.
Well, not
. You can't say
. At least not in the United States. In some European countries, like Norway, real, actual
—for example, a rule saying that 40 percent of a public company's board members must be female—have worked well; qualified women have been found and the Earth has continued turning. However, in the U.S., hiring
are illegal. ”We never use the word
at Intel," says Danielle Brown, the company's chief diversity and inclusion officer. Rather, Intel set extremely firm hiring goals. For 2015, it wanted 40 percent of hires to be female or underrepresented minorities.
Now, it's true that lots of companies have hiring goals. But to make its goals a little more, well,
-like, Intel introduced money into the equation. In Intel's annual performance-bonus plan, success in meeting diversity goals factors into whether the company gives employees an across-the-board bonus. (The amounts vary widely but can be substantial.) If diversity efforts succeed, everybody at the company gets a little bit richer.
Granted, Intel has further to go than some other companies, in part because most of its workforce is technical, unlike newer social-media companies. And with about 100,000 employees worldwide and decades of entrenched culture, it's a slow and hulking ship to turn around.
But since it began linking bonuses to diversity hiring, Intel has met or exceeded its goals. In 2015, 43 percent of new hires were women and underrepresented minorities, three percentage points above its target. Last year, it upped its goal to 45 percent of new hires, and met it. These changes weren't just happening at the entry level: 40 percent of new vice presidents were women and underrepresented minorities. Intel's U.S. workforce in 2014 was just 23.5 percent female. By the middle of last year, the percentage had risen two points, to 25.4 percent.
Intel has also introduced efforts to improve retention, including a ”warm line" employees can use to report a problem—feeling stuck in their career, or a conflict with a manager—and have someone look into it. A new initiative will take data from the warm line and from employee exit interviews to give managers customized playbooks. If a group is losing lots of women, for instance, the manager will get data on why they're leaving and how to address the issue.
Intel isn't perfect—its $300 million pledge for diversity efforts was seen by some as an effort to rehabilitate its image after the company got caught up in Gamergate, a complex scandal involving much gender-related ugliness. And women who have worked there say Intel's not immune to the sexism that plagues the industry. But I was struck by how many people talk about the company's genuine commitment.
Elizabeth Land, who worked at Intel for 18 years before leaving in 2015, says the hiring goals did foster some resentment among men. Still, she wishes more companies would adopt a similar approach, to force hiring managers to look beyond their immediate networks. ”If you're willing to spend the effort and the time to find the right senior-level females, you can."
Shelley Correll agrees. ”Tying bonuses to diversity outcomes signals that diversity is something the company cares about and thinks is important," she says. ”Managers will take it seriously." In fact, she points out, the idea has history: PepsiCo did something similar starting in the early 2000s. When, in the second year, the company didn't meet its goal of 50 percent diversity hires, executive bonuses suffered. But eventually the company's workforce did become more diverse. From 2001 to 2006, the representation of women and minorities among executives increased from 34 percent to 45 percent.
quotas
Well, not
quotas
quotas
quotas
quotas
quota
Now, it's true that lots of companies have hiring goals. But to make its goals a little more, well,
quota
Granted, Intel has further to go than some other companies, in part because most of its workforce is technical, unlike newer social-media companies. And with about 100,000 employees worldwide and decades of entrenched culture, it's a slow and hulking ship to turn around.
But since it began linking bonuses to diversity hiring, Intel has met or exceeded its goals. In 2015, 43 percent of new hires were women and underrepresented minorities, three percentage points above its target. Last year, it upped its goal to 45 percent of new hires, and met it. These changes weren't just happening at the entry level: 40 percent of new vice presidents were women and underrepresented minorities. Intel's U.S. workforce in 2014 was just 23.5 percent female. By the middle of last year, the percentage had risen two points, to 25.4 percent.
Intel has also introduced efforts to improve retention, including a ”warm line" employees can use to report a problem—feeling stuck in their career, or a conflict with a manager—and have someone look into it. A new initiative will take data from the warm line and from employee exit interviews to give managers customized playbooks. If a group is losing lots of women, for instance, the manager will get data on why they're leaving and how to address the issue.
Intel isn't perfect—its $300 million pledge for diversity efforts was seen by some as an effort to rehabilitate its image after the company got caught up in Gamergate, a complex scandal involving much gender-related ugliness. And women who have worked there say Intel's not immune to the sexism that plagues the industry. But I was struck by how many people talk about the company's genuine commitment.
Elizabeth Land, who worked at Intel for 18 years before leaving in 2015, says the hiring goals did foster some resentment among men. Still, she wishes more companies would adopt a similar approach, to force hiring managers to look beyond their immediate networks. ”If you're willing to spend the effort and the time to find the right senior-level females, you can."
Shelley Correll agrees. ”Tying bonuses to diversity outcomes signals that diversity is something the company cares about and thinks is important," she says. ”Managers will take it seriously." In fact, she points out, the idea has history: PepsiCo did something similar starting in the early 2000s. When, in the second year, the company didn't meet its goal of 50 percent diversity hires, executive bonuses suffered. But eventually the company's workforce did become more diverse. From 2001 to 2006, the representation of women and minorities among executives increased from 34 percent to 45 percent.
Money is what ultimately talks, and when bonuses are tied to diversity
quotas
Honestly I think quotas is a stupid idea. Does anyone actually want to be hired on the merit of being of a less represented gender rather than actually being the most qualified person for the position? I think pushing to hire more women is a very good idea, but I don't think having a separate quota will fix that. The same law was drafted in Sweden, but received heavy pushback and subsequently not implemented (https://www.svd.se/starka-reaktioner-pa-lagforslaget-maste-stoppas). The article is in Swedish, but basically the Liberal party, the Christian Democrats and the Confederation of Swedish Enterprise, among many others, criticized it.
Messofanego
Banned
If you read the article, you'd know why that meritocracy fallacy falls apart.
It's not just women in tech. It's any minority in any industry. Unconscious bias is so strong. Employer/interviewer sees two CVs, both with the same level of qualifications and skills. But because one's name is male and/or white, they're hired over the minority person. Hence, why apps have to come out to make that process more objective (remove name, gender, etc). This is a last resort because nothing else is working.
I dunno man. The board member composition of big companies in Sweden is steadily favoring more women. We're now at 36% up from 18% in 2003, see the graph where red is % women vs the blue EU-28 average (link in Swedish, but full data is here from the EU commission.) It's not perfect and we have a long way to go, but I do think that this is a strong indication that things are heading the right way, at least over here. And we don't have any quotas by law.
harriet the spy
Member
A far better solution would be to do a large part (or all) the hiring without seeing candidates. It sounds crazy because we mistakenly think there is so much to be seen in person while in fact we mostly feel uncomfortable shedding our biases (towards good looking people, gender, race). At the very least you could do the very largest part of the interview without seeing people, do only the last part in person, and statistically measure the effect.
You'll get gender bias regardless due to speech patterns.
harriet the spy
Member
I didn't say it was perfect - and speech patterns are far easier to dissimulate.
hodayathink
Member
It's almost like the horseshoe theory but socially instead of politically. The the further you get from the center, the more the extremes tend to be closer to each other than they think. "Brogrammers" are coming at it from a feeling of superiority, and "socially awkward nerds" are coming at it from a feeling of inferiority, but they're ending up at about the same place.
robertsan21
Member
This is fucking tragic.
all women please move to Sweden, here its much better than the US when it comes to this shit within the workplace. Not saying we are perfect and you wont find this shit at some companies but at least we are a head of the curb compared to other countries.
Fuck these asshole men
all women please move to Sweden, here its much better than the US when it comes to this shit within the workplace. Not saying we are perfect and you wont find this shit at some companies but at least we are a head of the curb compared to other countries.
Fuck these asshole men
I haven't seen it much, but I'm not a woman. The companies I've worked in had a decent (relatively) of women in development roles (maybe 15%?).
What I have seen is an assumption of some people that a new woman starting is in QI/UX. Occasionally I've seen people assume that a woman is less skilled (but they do change their view completely after actually working with them).
For whatever reason, I think that the average level of a women developer in everywhere I worked was lower than the men's. So there is some problem that starts earlier that we need to fix, as well.
Personally, I remember exhibiting overcorrection when I was asked about a potential employee and gave a positive impression despite thinking she was pretty bad (I've previously worked with her). Not sure I would've done that for a man.
What I have seen is an assumption of some people that a new woman starting is in QI/UX. Occasionally I've seen people assume that a woman is less skilled (but they do change their view completely after actually working with them).
For whatever reason, I think that the average level of a women developer in everywhere I worked was lower than the men's. So there is some problem that starts earlier that we need to fix, as well.
Personally, I remember exhibiting overcorrection when I was asked about a potential employee and gave a positive impression despite thinking she was pretty bad (I've previously worked with her). Not sure I would've done that for a man.
entremet
Member
It's extremely lazy as well.
The biggest issue is at the top. Higher management doesn't do anything to protect their female workforce.
They allow this culture to spread unabated.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked