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The Automotive Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Zyzyxxz
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Dreams-Visions
Member
I just spec'd out an Audi A5 (2.0) with most of the works and S-line package.Halvie said:
$50,000. And that engine is just a 211HP engine.
SMH.
MisterNoisy said:Yea - if you'd told me that I'd be buying a 300hp RWD sports car from Hyundai 10 years ago, I'd have laughed myself silly, but here I am.Also took a look at the Equus while they were getting the 'key' and was even more impressed. Not sure the world is ready for a $60K Hyundai, but Hyundai is definitely ready for the world.
Yeah, it's blowing my mind that I'm looking forward to checking out their Veloster later this summer, yet here I am.
Audi definitely needs to reassess their pricing strategy. It should be...Dreams-Visions said:
S Line ~= x35
RS Line ~= Mx
Right now, it's...
S Line = x35(1.20)
RS Line = Mx(1.10)
I still want an Audi S5 the most though. I'd just have to do a lot of work to it to get the performance up there (drop the weight, turbo the engine??).
Lagspike_exe
Member
Audi is trash. They have beautifully built interior, but awful reliability and are heavily overpriced.
MisterNoisy
Member
Seth C said:
No doubt - the Veloster looks far closer to the spirit of the old Honda CRX than Honda's own CR-Z, and there's supposed to be a turbocharged version to follow the launch of the base model.
Dreams-Visions
Member
totally agree. But in talking to an Audi dealer, they seem to be using the unjustifiably high price to keep their market "exclusive". They don't seem to realize that you create exclusivity by creating a product of higher quality than others (and a higher price to go with it)...not by arbitrarily pricing the vehicles higher just to do it. That's preying on the stupid, rather than creating a solid base of repeat buyers, which is what BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac and MB have done. ESPECIALLY considering Audi's reliability history and the fact that you have to pay all maintenance from day 1. As a BMW owner, I've never seen a bill for work on my cars for anything other than replacement tires.reilo said:
Charging $10k more for the S5 than the price of a slightly better-performing 335i just seems unfair...despite the car being sexy as hell. Especially considering you can make that same 335i into a 380HP beast for just $480 more. How much do you have to pour into an S5 to get it up to 380HP? ugh.
I can't disagree with any of that.Lagspike_exe said:
BoobPhysics101
Banned
ecnal said:
Yeah, C&D can be questionable, but I think their times can't be too far off. I'd really like to drive both a new STI and V6 + GT Mustangs on track to compare.
I really prefer the 05-06 GD to any other STI. Absolutely awesome, aggressive styling.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
Agreed x100. A 335i can be had for dirt cheap, with a warranty, and modded to insane power levels for NOTHING. The suspension is good too, so it handles well even with extra power. 135i/335i would be my choice for a daily driver that's also used to rape 99% of other cars. Only cars that'd spank your ass would be C6 Corvettes.
Lagspike_exe said:
As much as I like the S5 and R8, this is so true. Audi's performance per dollar ratio is pitiful, and they always have trouble competing with ///M and AMG. Their styling is excellent, but fuck ever having to foot the repair bill for an Audi. :|
I really want my next car to be a RWD or AWD two-door European car with a V8. Unfortunately there aren't many options out there that fit my style. The Audi S5 and BMW M3 fit that criteria, but the cost of ownership (initial upfront cost, maintenance, reliability, money to mod it, insurance) are a bitter pill to swallow.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
Dude, an S5 is a heavy pig too... and I don't even think the handling is as good as a 335i, let alone M3. The S5 really needs to be about 15k less to compete. If I had the money, there'd be no Audi that would be on my list.
S5? Nope, M3/Cayman S/Z06/335i.
R8? Nope, 911 Turbo/GT3/ZR1.
reilo said:
Yeah, no kidding. Euro maintenance is a huge bitch. Before I bought my S2000 I was set on an E46 M3... fuuuuck that. The Inspection services alone @ 30/60/100k miles are RAPE. At least $1.5-2k each. And the cost of tires on an M3 is ass-rape due to the rim size.
I spent far less on my S2000 in every single way, ESPECIALLY maintenance + upkeep and it'll spank an M3 on the track. Getting close to M3 speeds in a straight line as well, just need a tune and maybe gears.
It's really hard to go with Euro when Japanese/American cars offer so much for your money and are much cheaper to maintain.
Dreams-Visions
Member
used S5 FTW? if the mileage is low and you don't mind the service costs you'll love starting that engine every morning. I bet you can get a 2010 for a great price. let someone else take the hit for driving it off the lot first and save that $10 grand.reilo said:
last I saw, the S5 did a good job keeping up with the 335i. Didn't beat it, but got damn close to equaling it. Was a Road & Track article, IIRC. Maybe MotorTrend?BoobPhysics101 said:
But yea, I agree with you on the rest of your points. At $60-$65k for that S5, a world of options opens up. CTS-V, 335is, Cayman,etc. and if you're talking used...the world opens up.
And the R8...yea, never. Interesting car, though.
Yeah, I'm not talking about new here. Used is definitely the option, but even then I'm searching locally (~200mi) and I see 2008 S5s with 35k miles listed at $43k LOL.Dreams-Visions said:used S5 FTW? if the mileage is low and you don't mind the service costs you'll love starting that engine every morning. I bet you can get a 2010 for a great price. let someone else take the hit for driving it off the lot first and save that $10 grand.
33-Hit-Combo
Member
BoobPhysics101 said:
No love for the RS series?
BoobPhysics101
Banned
reilo said:
What a fucking joke. Audi tax FTL. For $43k you can almost get a used E92 M3, haha. Or a 997 Porsche 911.
Porsche seems to avoid the usual Euro lameness... their build quality is sky-high and their reliability is similar to Japanese brands.
33-Hit-Combo said:
Dude, the RS series is awesome. So sexy and performance to die for.
But they're an even bigger rip-off than normal Audi's. Sure it's 'exclusive', but who cares about being exclusive when for the same amount of money you can buy something that'll blow the doors off any RS?
It's the difference between having a Mugen Civic (Type) RR and having a Corvette.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
reilo said:
Seen the RS3? So hot.
The RS5 is going to be an epic joke when it comes to pricing.
Dreams-Visions
Member
that's pretty wild.reilo said:
No bullshit: you can get a 2007 Carrera 911 with a few more miles for about that price with a little negotiation...and it's a certified Porsche approved, meaning up to 100,000 miles of warranty coverage.
This car was probably $85k new. And keep in mind, Porsche has been #1 in JD's vehicle reliability ratings for the last 6 years...Audi has not. And fuck...one is a Porsche, the other is not.
So yea, that S5 asking price seems crazy. BUT hell...if people are silly enough to pay it, I guess they will. It's a beautiful car, no doubt. I really wanted one too...but my reasonable side has kinda taken over. It would have to be a used S5 for me if at all. And certainly not at the prices you're seeing locally.
Case in point...BoobPhysics101 said:
S5 Listings
2008 | $47,763 | 36,467 mi | Link
2008 | $49,999 | 33,924 mi | Link
2009 | $46,995 | 32,550 mi | Link
2008 | $43,995 | 36,657 mi | Link
M3 Listings
2008 | $48,880 | 24,282 mi | Link
2008 | $51,675 | 28,570 mi | Link
2008 | $52,999 | 17,219 mi | Link
That's what? A $3-4k cost difference, and the M3s have on average 7-10k less miles on them for the same year? Ridiculous.
Dreams-Visions
Member
:-Oreilo said:
:-O
:-O
I'm in no rush anyway haha. I'm gonna pay off my Mazdaspeed6 off before the end of the year first, turning 25 in October which means insurance will drop, and then I can save up for a hefty down payment when I'm ready. And who knows, by then my tastes my change. I'll definitely will keep the Porsche in mind though.Dreams-Visions said:
ecnal
Member
BoobPhysics101 said:
e46 m3 is probably one of the best sports cars ever, but i ended up selling due to the aforementioned -- maintenence and numerous re-occuring issues soured my experience.
by the time i sold it, it had more rattles and noises than my 05 sti with 85K miles (which had hundreds of hours of track time); the seals for the doors were becoming loose; cracked portions of the control arms (specifically the ball mounts/bushings); and BMW was trying to tell me i already needed to replace the vanos @ 50K miles (typically a service around 90K miles).
straight up ridiculous.
I recently rewatched the Top Gear episode where they tried to kill the Toyota Hulix, and in the same episode they tested the RX-8. My jaw was on the floor when I realized that the RX-8 matched the E46 M3's time on the Top Gear test track.ecnal said:
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Halvie said:
Dreams-Visions said:
$800 at any almost any Audi dealer bumps that figure up to 250HP and 350TQ. And that's just the ECU. You can also go and purchase a set of test pipes and get even more power (15WHP/20WTQ) all throughout the powerband.
And the ECU is backed by a 4-year/50K mile warranty from Audi and Stasis.
reilo said:
I've went through this argument plenty of times. You are comparing an AWD Audi to a RWD BMW. Add the same options to a 335x, and you suddenly find yourself looking at similar prices. In fact: base MSRP of a BMW 328iX Coupe is $40,425. Base MSRP on an Audi A5 Coupe? $37,775. The A5 and the 328 amount for up to 85% of sales in each respective series of cars (Audi 5s and the BMW 3-series). Stuff like the 335i and S5 are already a different ballpark.
So when you look at the base numbers on a 335ix, you see it's almost $10K cheaper than the Audi S5. For starters, that's because the BMW comes with $10K less in standard options (the same applies to the 328 btw). There is no display screen in the center console, which is standard on the Audi. There are no heated seats and steering wheel, again standard on the Audi. Worst of all, you do not get real leather in the BMW (leatherette is vinyl, and is fuck awful), the Audi has silk nappa leather standard. The BMW's AWD system comes with open-differentials that do a piss poor job of managing wheel slip side-to-side or front-to-back (BMW's AWD is considered among the worst), Quattro doesn't have this problem and is infinitely better. Furthermore, Audi is offered with optional torque-vectoring to further aid the AWD, BMW does (though this isn't relevant at the moment, just felt like sharing).
Standard wheels on the BMW are tiny and bland 17s, the Audi comes standard with big-beautiful 5-spoke 19s. The BMW does not come with sport seats, the Audi has them standard. BMW doesn't have bluetooth standard, Audi does. BMW doesn't have iPod & USB jack standard, the Audi does. It doesn't have SD card input standard, the Audi does. Seriously, do I have to keep going? I'll add in all of the things the BMW doesn't have and I get an MSRP of.... *drum roll, please* ...
$54K, nearly leveled with the price of the S5 and yet there are still a few standard features the BMW is missing (the 7-inch display screen being one).
So note to GAF: There's a reason why you're posting on this forum and those CEOs of multi-billion dollar companies are earning their millions.
Dreams-Visions
Member
a Mazda RX-8? I thought those things topped off at like 250hp? must be a really light car.reilo said:
What is this bullshit? We are discussing < $50,000 vehicles here, not multi-million dollar conglomerate transactions. Gtfo.AlphaSnake said:
The version they tested was quoted at 226HP. The car has epically bad torque numbers -- 159 at 5500RPM. But the car weighs 3000lbs and revs to 9k RPM. Still, the fact that it was even in contention was unbelievable to me.Dreams-Visions said:
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Just optioned out both 335ix and S5 as similarly as possible (Audi offers way more extra options than BMW does) and the BMW came out to $58K, while the Audi came out to $60K. And with the extra $2K, the Audi still boasts the better wheel and tire package, a backup camera + sensors (BMW only has sensors), the better AWD system, hard-drive, two SD card readers, and more.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
Bullshit? You made baseless statements such as Audis are grossly overpriced, which I have just refuted, shitted on, and wiped off my foot by actually demonstrating how those statements were factually wrong. That led to my comment where I informed you fellas that executives aren't stupid and they know what their product is worth and how much it should be sold for in the market.
Try to keep up with the topic, ya?AlphaSnake said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27257706&postcount=1729
In case you didn't realize it, those are M3 versus S5 prices.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Lagspike_exe said:
Oh look, more horseshit. I speak from experience, but my Audi A6 4.2 has given me no more problems than the Infiniti FX35 I had before. And the Audi was a used car with 42k miles on it (it has 65K now), meanwhile the Infiniti was new and started developing issues by the time it hit 20k miles. All anecdotal, but I have something to offer as opposed to baseless accusations.
Furthermore... Audi's have become more reliable than BMW:
This is a 3-year study for model year 2008 vehicles.
But to be fair, there are a ton of loop holes with these yearly studies. And in any case, 1.6 problems for every 100 vehicles during 3 years of ownership is hardly unreliable.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
Who gives a shit? That's not what I quoted you as saying. Who made the following statement?
You did. At which point I proved you wrong by showing you that that's what their pricing strategy is. And that they are priced against BMW's AWD offerings.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
Why are you comparing prices of vehicles that do not have a set MSRP? Dealers can do whatever the hell they want with these prices, and Audi's used cars sales is notoriously known to overprice and require tons of haggling.
This discussion is whether or not Audis are overpriced, which you effectively claimed they were. That discussion is based on the MSRP and value of a new car. Not used cars. Not incentivized prices. Not Invoice. New. MSRP.
Oh, I'm sorry that I searched local listings and found a trend on how much Audi S5s cost versus BMW 335is. Or in this case, Audi S5s versus BMW M3s. I wasn't pulling ether out of my ass. This is what the local prices are showing me to be true.AlphaSnake said:
You can harp on SD cards and harddrives (who gives a fuck about that?) all you want, but when local listings show me that Audi S5s with double the mileage have a $2k price difference of same-year BMW M3s, I'm gonna raise the bullshit flag and call a spade a spade.
Actually, the guy that said they were overpriced was the person I quoted...AlphaSnake said:
Then someone talked about used pricing, and I did a quick search on local listings and compared S5 prices to M3 prices. Why you have your panties in a bunch, I do not know.Dreams-Visions said:
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
Yeah, that's right. Who gives a fuck about common options in luxury cars these days. And way to go on picking out the two smallest options a BMW would be missing. The bottom line is that BMWs come cheaper base because you get what you pay for in them - fake leather, and a horde of missing features that are otherwise standard on the other car.
Dreams-Visions
Member
sorry dogg, but no.AlphaSnake said:
my 335xi was $49k before reductions. That included all-wheel drive, upgraded audio, nav, heated seats, moving xenon headlamps, etc. all the good shit other than keyless start and areo. how much is a premium S5 with upgraded audio and nav? About $64k...and I know it because I just priced it out. You can talk that "base price" bullshit if you want to.
going to have to object. sorry.AlphaSnake said:
these are 2 equally-equipped cars, I'd say.
only remaining difference is the size of the wheels (lol @ "nappa leather"). this is just the MSRP, and there's a $5,000 difference. Now then, I know for a fact that this same BMW can be had at a dealership for around $50k. Meanwhile, they rarely discount the Audi's. Now we're talking about a $9,000-$10,000 gap.
Now let's discuss maintenance. BMW covers all mantenance charges for the first 4 years/50,000 miles. Everything but tires. with Audi, the first service is free, after that pay up. Add that on.
Now let's remind ourselves about how much it will cost to up the performance of the car. An ECU flash for an Audi will run you around $1,400. A BMW add-on will give you similar performance for <$500. So that's another $1,000 or so. And the more HP you add, the cheaper the BMW becomes in comparison.
Edit: wrong again, the S5 flash gives you about +15HP..maybe a little more. the BMW add-on gives you 80HP-100HP. lol
Now let's talk about buying a car. You can get in the same BMW I've been talking about with a 5-year
So yes, I concede the wheels are bigger if you'll concede that those big wheels aren't worth the $9,000-$15,000 more in ownership costs associated with the first 5 years of the cars, assuming a purchase.
You're move.
edit: accidentally said "lease" instead of purchase.
edit: another fail.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
Hell, I'll play this game. Just added a few standard features to the BMW M3 that are offered in the Audi...the M3 immediately became $10K more expensive, which changes the price-class considerably.
So again, apples-to-apples, the cars are not priced similarly despite what you think. BMW keeps the prices low by keeping standard equipment low. And yet, this comparison still isn't apple-to-apples because the S5 is an AWD GT, while the M3 isn't.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Dreams-Visions said:sorry dogg, but no.
my 335xi was $49k before reductions. That included all-wheel drive, upgraded audio, nav, heated seats, moving xenon headlamps, etc. all the good shit other than keyless start and areo. how much is a premium S5 with upgraded audio and nav? About $64k...and I know it because I just priced it out. You can talk that "base price" bullshit if you want to.
going to have to object. sorry.
these are 2 equally-equipped cars, I'd say.
only remaining difference is the size of the wheels (lol @ "nappa leather"). this is just the MSRP, and there's a $5,000 difference. Now then, I know for a fact that this same BMW can be had at a dealership for around $50k. Meanwhile, they rarely discount the Audi's. Now we're talking about a $9,000-$10,000 gap.
Now let's discuss maintenance. BMW covers all mantenance charges for the first 4 years/50,000 miles. Everything but tires. with Audi, the first service is free, after that pay up. Add that on.
Now let's remind ourselves about how much it will cost to up the performance of the car. An ECU flash for an Audi will run you around $1,400. A BMW add-on will give you similar performance for <$500. So that's another $1,000 or so. And the more HP you add, the cheaper the BMW becomes in comparison.
Now let's talk about buying a car. You can get in the same BMW I've been talking about with a 5-year lease for about $770/month, if you have decent credit and a decent down-payment. With a similar down-payment on the Audi, it's about $150/month more. I know because I spent a fair amount of time trying to decide which I'd go with and still have the numbers in my inbox somewhere.
So yes, I concede the wheels are bigger if you'll concede that those big wheels aren't worth the $9,000-$15,000 more in ownership costs associated with the first 5 years of the cars, assuming a purchase.
You're move.
You're adding features to the Audi that the BMW does not have. You're doing it wrong. I've said my piece, and the two come out to nearly the same prices. Free maintenance offers come and go with Audis, my 2005 had it. My girlfriend's 2006 had it. And 2007s had it. They stopped for a few years, and either 2010 or 2011 models have it again.
I also don't care about leases or incentive prices as I already mentioned. Compare apples-to-apples.
Sure, but also if you play the game where we admit that we don't need to get AWD in the BMW. I mean, you don't need to get Quattro in the Audis (at least entry models), either, but FWD isn't too enticing for any of us, yet I don't think anybody would bitch about RWD.AlphaSnake said:
You wouldn't, would you, since your Z is RWD after all? The reason we can't do an apples-to-apples comparison is because Audi doesn't offer an apples-to-apples alternative. RWD is suitable for any enthusiast out there, whereas AWD isn't necessarily a must-have, at least in my opinion.
But you can keep harping on about the AWD all you want -- and I love AWD considering I actually own a AWD car! -- but I wouldn't be a stickler about RWD like you are.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
The AWD carries a premium and it reflects in the price tag. It's simply a matter of fact that's why I keep stressing that RWD BMWs can't be used in these comparisons. It's not a matter of preference, it's simply a matter of keeping all things leveled and relative.
I have a similar beef with Porsche offering their Cayman and Boxsters at very low MSRPs to compete with a variety of sports cars from all sorts of makes...and then you suddenly realize what the cost of an optioned entry-level Porsche comes out to, because the cars come so bare-bones at those attractive MSRPs.
Dreams-Visions
Member
oh, and the 335 gets better gas mileage than the S5
I understand what you're saying about the AWD, but TBH I had the 335xi for 3 years and spent some meaningful time in the snow. I never had traction problems in the worst of Michigan and Ohio conditions. I also posted some very fast 0-60 times thanks to the AWD system and some nice, inexpensive mods. So I'm not sure what the real-world difference would have been between the 2 systems for me, but the xDrive system was flawless for me. At the end of the day, that's all you can ask for, isn't it?
I understand what you're saying about the AWD, but TBH I had the 335xi for 3 years and spent some meaningful time in the snow. I never had traction problems in the worst of Michigan and Ohio conditions. I also posted some very fast 0-60 times thanks to the AWD system and some nice, inexpensive mods. So I'm not sure what the real-world difference would have been between the 2 systems for me, but the xDrive system was flawless for me. At the end of the day, that's all you can ask for, isn't it?
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Dreams-Visions said:oh, and the 335 gets better gas mileage than the S5
I understand what you're saying about the AWD, but TBH I had the 335xi for 3 years and spent some meaningful time in the snow. I never had traction problems in the worst of Michigan and Ohio conditions. I also posted some very fast 0-60 times thanks to the AWD system and some nice, inexpensive mods. So I'm not sure what the real-world difference would have been between the 2 systems for me, but the xDrive system was flawless for me. At the end of the day, that's all you can ask for, isn't it?
As long as you're happy, that's what matters most.
And just to clarify, when I was car shopping, I was ready to take an M3 over the S5 each and every day. So this whole argument doesn't reflect the cars I actually prefer and don't.
Though, had the S5 been available with the supercharge V6 like the S4 is...it'd have been a very difficult choice to make. The S4 puts down 330WHP, its crank output is estimated to be close to 400HP. And the ECUs give it an additional 70-80WHP, much like the 335i.
Modded S4s are stupid quick. The shit storms that brew over the BMW and Audi forums over which cars are faster have been epic. Hahaha
Is there any news on switching the S5 to the S4 engine? Because at that point I wouldn't mind losing two cylinders!AlphaSnake said:As long as you're happy, that's what matters most.
And just to clarify, when I was car shopping, I was ready to take an M3 over the S5 each and every day. So this whole argument doesn't reflect the cars I actually prefer and don't.
Though, had the S5 been available with the supercharge V6 like the S4 is...it'd have been a very difficult choice to make. The S4 puts down 330WHP, its crank output is estimated to be close to 400HP. And the ECUs give it an additional 70-80WHP, much like the 335i.
Modded S4s are stupid quick. The shit storms that brew over the BMW and Audi forums over which cars are faster have been epic. Hahaha
AlphaSnake said:As long as you're happy, that's what matters most.
And just to clarify, when I was car shopping, I was ready to take an M3 over the S5 each and every day. So this whole argument doesn't reflect the cars I actually prefer and don't.
Though, had the S5 been available with the supercharge V6 like the S4 is...it'd have been a very difficult choice to make. The S4 puts down 330WHP, its crank output is estimated to be close to 400HP. And the ECUs give it an additional 70-80WHP, much like the 335i.
Modded S4s are stupid quick. The shit storms that brew over the BMW and Audi forums over which cars are faster have been epic. Hahaha
Much agreed, all this useless arguing is dumb, both cars are awesome and because we have choice we can find a car that fits our own personalities.
Personally I've recently become enamored by Audis in the recent years as I've begun to dislike BMW exterior designs but I'm not gonna try and convince anyone from buying a BMW, you gotta go with what your heart is set on. Those who haven't driven both shouldn't be doing computer chair car debates.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
reilo said:
October of this year. The S5 sedan in Europe already has the 3.0L SC in it. They seem to be phasing out the 4.2L on the coupes, they probably had a ton of those 4.2s left and need to get rid of them before switching over.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Zyzyxxz said:
Haha, I'm just happy this thread got a solid shot in the arm, as opposed to people talking about Impalas, Accords, Altimas, and which generic FWD coupe looks better than the next generic FWD coupe. =)
Hmm, I'm not looking for a heated debate about this, but I thought getting a 335xi sedan was a better financial decision compared to a similarly equipped Audi S4 last year. Audi has horrible leasing and financing rates, and I wasn't ballin' enough to drop 60k straight to the car dealer's. Audis are generally overpriced imo. I think only the S4 and A4 are reasonably priced. TTRS, RS4, RS6, RS5, R8, etc are overpriced compared to the competition.
And really S5 over M3? :lol To each their own I guess.
And really S5 over M3? :lol To each their own I guess.
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