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[ghostofsparta]

Why would you want to spend that much on a Civic Si? Get a used Mazdaspeed3 and call it a day if you want fast FWD fun.

You don't like Si's? I'm not a fan of Mazda, except the rx-7 which is amazing but I barely see any on the road/dealerships/craigslist so I don't even know how much they go for. I think I've seen more Ferraris than rx-7s on the road.

Of course if the right price came up and I test drove it and liked it I would be open to getting a speed 3, you know an old one without the stupid goofy smile.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Not saying you will, but many people wreck their first car. You dont exactly have to get a beater, but I would buy something used.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

You don't like Si's? I'm not a fan of Mazda, except the rx-7 which is amazing barely see any on the road/dealerships/craigslist so I don't even know how much they go for. I think I've seen more Ferraris than rx-7s on the road.

Si has garbage performance for the money, any way you cut it. They are mediocre.

You can't afford an RX-7 or the maintenance, trust me. And those cars require a knowledgeable touch to drive. Rear suspension set-up is very S2000/NSX/noob-killer 'toe-in to rapid toe-out = oversteer noob-death.'

Not saying you will, but many people wreck their first car. You dont exactly have to get a beater, but I would buy something used.

Especially those who get in way over their head with something they have no idea how to push... I've seen it way too many times. Too many nice cars wrapped around poles or with their control arms bent from people smashing them into curbs during spin-outs... or worse.

 

[ghostofsparta]

Not saying you will, but many people wreck their first car. You dont exactly have to get a beater, but I would buy something used.

I'm definetly getting something used. I've been deciding if I should just get a 5k car and wait till I graduate and get a decent job.

Because it's either I spend 15k now and I'm sort of forced to have it for a good while or buy a cheaper car and hopefully I get a good job where I can upgrade sooner.

Especially those who get in way over their head with something they have no idea how to push... I've seen it way too many times. Too many nice cars wrapped around poles or with their control arms bent from people smashing them into curbs during spin-outs... or worse.

I can totally see that being me

 

[BoobPhysics101]

I'm definetly getting something used. I've been deciding if I should just get a 5k car and wait till I graduate and get a decent job.

Because it's either I spend 15k now and I'm sort of forced to have it for a good while or buy a cheaper car and hopefully I get a good job where I can upgrade sooner.



I can totally see that being me

^^^ Good idea.

And hey, it happens. Better to fuck up a cheap car than something that you'll regret AND could get you hurt more easily.

 

[Bad_Boy]

If you could find a good condition Acura RSX, I think that would be fun.


edit:

thought you guys would get a kick out of this.
smallest v12 in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YfTtGCsiD8

 

[TylerD]

Especially those who get in way over their head with something they have no idea how to push... I've seen it way too many times. Too many nice cars wrapped around poles or with their control arms bent from people smashing them into curbs during spin-outs... or worse.

It took exactly 1 week for me to spin my 88' 944 n/a 180 degrees and pop my right rear tire up over a curb at a hooning intersection where the pavement was worn down and pretty much every kid would break traction on the way from the high school to the football stadium for practice. I was really lucky that there was no damage other than a scrape on my wheel and a rut in someones front lawn.

Took a couple of defensive driver courses after that and got an insurance discount, good experience with handling oversteer, and a lot more common sense. 16 yr old with a rear wheel drive car with a manual and no LSD was a really bad combination at first.

 

[enzo_gt]

We all knew the 86 was gonna look like garbage from the start, the concepts were all horrendously and obnoxiously designed apart from the tail lights. Just how garbage is the shocking bit. And then there are the performance figures..

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

What is with all the crass negativity about the 86? Great styling, superb chassis and handling, appropriate power, lightweight, cheap.

It was never supposed to be a competitor to the 370Z; it was a Miata-fighter from the start.

 

[Falch]

What is with all the crass negativity about the 86? Great styling, superb chassis and handling, appropriate power, lightweight, cheap.

It was never supposed to be a competitor to the 370Z; it was a Miata-fighter from the start.

My thoughts exactly. I'm sure it'll be loads of fun to drive.

 

[cajunator]

Nobody can really say what its like to drive yet and Im sure it will be fun, but it looks fucking AWFUL.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Nobody can really say what its like to drive yet and Im sure it will be fun, but it looks fucking AWFUL.

I think it looks great? It's a step back from the concepts but that's true for every car ever.

 

[ameratsu]

I can see some criticism of the looks, even if getting something that closely resembles the concept version is unrealistic. The only thing that gets me is the negativity surrounding the engine. There have been plenty of fun to drive and lightweight cars through the years that haven't had turbo engines with ridiculous power potential.

Not every car has to have 260+hp. Subaru will probably introduce a turbo version down the road, but why overshoot the market out of the gate at the expense of fuel economy and sticker price? Toyota is trying to deliver a relatively inexpensive, fun-to-drive car that will sell well enough to foster decent aftermarket support.

 

[ascii42]

I can see some criticism of the looks, even if getting something that closely resembles the concept version is unrealistic. The only thing that gets me is the negativity surrounding the engine. There have been plenty of fun to drive and lightweight cars through the years that haven't had turbo engines with ridiculous power potential.

Not every car has to have 260+hp. Subaru will probably introduce a turbo version down the road, but why overshoot the market out of the gate at the expense of fuel economy and sticker price? Toyota is trying to deliver a relatively inexpensive, fun-to-drive car that will sell well enough to foster decent aftermarket support.

I think the horsepower is fine. Then again, I've never had a car with over 200 hp so maybe I'm not the best judge. What gets me is the torque. It peaks 151 lb-ft of torque at 6600 freaking RPM. Now, perhaps we'll need to see the torque curve, but that doesn't sound promising. Then again, the car is pretty light.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Concerning the power: I wish I could remember where I saw it, but one of the higher ups on the design team actually said they kept it at that level such that you could go out and push the car like crazy instead of spending half your time reigning in the power.

It's the classic "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow," philosophy, and I for one am glad they stuck to it. There were a lot of roads I could go nuts on in my old 924S but when I went to a 911 suddenly I found myself laying off the throttle because it was just too much. Often-times less fun.

 

[Funky Papa]

Nobody can really say what its like to drive yet and Im sure it will be fun, but it looks fucking AWFUL.

The updated Genesis Coupe curb stomps it like Ed Norton.

The GT 86 will look nice... but it is going to need some tasteful mods such as the ones leaked in Japan a few weeks ago.

 

[AlphaSnake]

I'm definetly getting something used. I've been deciding if I should just get a 5k car and wait till I graduate and get a decent job.

Because it's either I spend 15k now and I'm sort of forced to have it for a good while or buy a cheaper car and hopefully I get a good job where I can upgrade sooner.



I can totally see that being me

Totally serious question...how old are you and where do you live? A 350Z is a fantastic car (it was my first 'real' car), but you need to be a mature driver and live in an area where the winters aren't existent or are not very harsh. Or at the very least, have alternate means of transport.

Basically, you have to be careful.

 

[Halvie]

The updated Genesis Coupe curb stomps it like Ed Norton.

The GT 86 will look nice... but it is going to need some tasteful mods such as the ones leaked in Japan a few weeks ago.

Why did they have to ugly up the front so much. Needs the v8 stuffed in there to pull off such an aggressive front imo

 

[TylerD]

Concerning the power: I wish I could remember where I saw it, but one of the higher ups on the design team actually said they kept it at that level such that you could go out and push the car like crazy instead of spending half your time reigning in the power.

It's the classic "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow," philosophy, and I for one am glad they stuck to it. There were a lot of roads I could go nuts on in my old 924S but when I went to a 911 suddenly I found myself laying off the throttle because it was just too much. Often-times less fun.

This is a really good point. Especially if you are not willing to smash laws every time you want to have a little fun. I think the front looks fine on the 86 but that ass is really disappointing.

 

[reilo]

What is with all the crass negativity about the 86? Great styling, superb chassis and handling, appropriate power, lightweight, cheap.

It was never supposed to be a competitor to the 370Z; it was a Miata-fighter from the start.

$25k is not cheap for a car like this, wtf.

I can see some criticism of the looks, even if getting something that closely resembles the concept version is unrealistic. The only thing that gets me is the negativity surrounding the engine. There have been plenty of fun to drive and lightweight cars through the years that haven't had turbo engines with ridiculous power potential.

Not every car has to have 260+hp. Subaru will probably introduce a turbo version down the road, but why overshoot the market out of the gate at the expense of fuel economy and sticker price? Toyota is trying to deliver a relatively inexpensive, fun-to-drive car that will sell well enough to foster decent aftermarket support.

$25k is not inexpensive, come on now.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The updated Genesis Coupe curb stomps it like Ed Norton.

The GT 86 will look nice... but it is going to need some tasteful mods such as the ones leaked in Japan a few weeks ago.

The type of person that buys a GT86 has no idea what a tasteful mod is.

I for one, can't wait for the return of mismatched/unpainted body kits, coffee can mufflers and no performance mods.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

$25k is not cheap for a car like this, wtf.

Well how much did you expect the car to cost? (It's supposed to cost about the same price as a Miata, last I saw any semi-firm numbers)

 

[reilo]

Well how much did you expect the car to cost? (It's supposed to cost about the same price as a Miata, last I saw any semi-firm numbers)

The Miata is $2k cheaper MSRP and it's a convertible.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

The Miata is $2k cheaper MSRP and it's a convertible.

It also has about 3/4 the power, is nowhere near as pretty, has two less seats and is (will be) less practical for daily use.

How much did you think this car would cost?

 

[_illmatic_]

The Miata is $2k cheaper MSRP and it's a convertible.

So I have to install a roll cage in order to track it?

 

[reilo]

It also has about 3/4 the power, is nowhere near as pretty, has two less seats and is (will be) less practical for daily use.

How much did you think this car would cost?

The MX-5 is far better looking car, weighs over 200lbs less (for a convertible!), and has the same amount of torque at a better peak.

The Toyobaru is a good $5k too much.

 

[Stinkles]

So I have to install a roll cage in order to track it?

Lots of people just install a simple rollbar. I would bet it's the single most common Miata track mod.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

The MX-5 is far better looking car, weighs over 200lbs less (for a convertible!), and has the same amount of torque at a better peak.

The Toyobaru is a good $5k too much.

I'm sorry you're just being unreasonable--there was no way this car was going to be under $20k. You're talking Corolla prices at that point. I think $25k may be a touch high but I expect it to MSRP for 22 or 23 (and really, the difference between 23k and 25k is negligible).

 

[reilo]

I'm sorry you're just being unreasonable--there was no way this car was going to be under $20k. You're talking Corolla prices at that point. I think $25k may be a touch high but I expect it to MSRP for 22 or 23 (and really, the difference between 23k and 25k is negligible).

Toyotas are overpriced across the board, along with Hondas. Me saying that this car is worth $20k MSRP doesn't take into account what they price their other cars at. I'm pricing it versus the available competition.

So no, I am not being unreasonable.

 

[ascii42]

(and really, the difference between 23k and 25k is negligible).

Er...

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Er...

It's a difference of $30 or $40 on a $400 loan, it's more, but I don't think it's going to be pricing people out if they're really considering getting the thing.

Toyotas are overpriced across the board, along with Hondas. Me saying that this car is worth $20k MSRP doesn't take into account what they price their other cars at. I'm pricing it versus the available competition.

So no, I am not being unreasonable.

Just what, exactly, do you think this thing's competition is?

 

[_illmatic_]

Looking at the specs, it seems to be similar to a Integra Type R.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2153

 

[reilo]

Just what, exactly, do you think this thing's competition is?

Toyota stated the MX-5. I already covered that.

But then they are also much better options out there for the $25k+ marker:

Mustang V6 and the Genesis Coupe both have a MSRP that's $3k less and offer so much more car compared to the GT-86. It's stupefying, really.

 

[ascii42]

It's a difference of $30 or $40 on a $400 loan, it's more, but I don't think it's going to be pricing people out if they're really considering getting the thing.

You are probably right. However, when somebody names a base price, I know I'm going to be spending more. If the car is $25k base, that means that most cars actually on dealership lots will cost in the upper $20k range. And if I remember correctly, Scion does no haggle pricing.

 

[Stinkles]

Toyota stated the MX-5. I already covered that.

But then they are also much better options out there for the $25k+ marker:

Mustang V6 and the Genesis Coupe both have a MSRP that's $3k less and offer so much more car compared to the GT-86. It's stupefying, really.

There are two types of MX5 owner - track racers and people who are menopausal enough to want to buy a PT Cruiser, but are smart enough not to.

This is competing squarely with Scions and Zs, IMO. In fact Toyota needs to be careful not to cannibalize.

It has nothing in common demographically with a Miata.

 

[Liquidsnake]

I went to the LA auto show, and the Ft 86 was a no show. I did check out its cousin the Subaru BRZ, and the Scion FR-S.

I was going to upload pics, but the ones on here are better than my Iphone ones.

 

[_illmatic_]

Toyota stated the MX-5. I already covered that.

But then they are also much better options out there for the $25k+ marker:

Mustang V6 and the Genesis Coupe both have a MSRP that's $3k less and offer so much more car compared to the GT-86. It's stupefying, really.

Depends on what you're looking for in a car really. Genesis Coupe is deff a nice cross-shopper, but I'll wait till I can test drive em to see how they really feel. Stats aren't everything.

 

[reilo]

There are two types of MX5 owner - track racers and people who are menopausal enough to want to buy a PT Cruiser, but are smart enough not to.

This is competing squarely with Scions and Zs, IMO. In fact Toyota needs to be careful not to cannibalize.

It has nothing in common demographically with a Miata.

I agree but that's who Toyota said they were targeting. This car has no identity.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Toyota stated the MX-5. I already covered that.

But then they are also much better options out there for the $25k+ marker:

Mustang V6 and the Genesis Coupe both have a MSRP that's $3k less and offer so much more car compared to the GT-86. It's stupefying, really.

Yeah, you "covered" the Miata by saying "but it's a convertible" but I'll let that slide because I'm not getting through to you.

The Mustang V6 is not a competitor for this car. Yes, it has lots more power but they are after completely different demographics and have completely different philosophies behind them. The Genesis is much more a competitor to the Mustang than it is to the 86, weighs 600 pounds more and only has 10hp more (for the base $22,500 model).

What you should be comparing this car to is the Miata, Mini Cooper S, Volkswagen GTI, Civic Si and other cars in that vein. Of its competition it's just the Miata and the 86 that will be light and RWD.

If this thing ends up costing $25k or up I'll agree that it's overpriced but I very much doubt that will happen and expect a price in the $22-23k range.

I agree but that's who Toyota said they were targeting. This car has no identity.

Now you're just making up reasons not to like the thing.

 

[Stinkles]

I agree but that's who Toyota said they were targeting. This car has no identity.

Ja, I was agreeing with you. In a long winded fashion.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

FT86 sounds good both in price and performance. 25k sounds reasonable to me. I need the 2+2 and don't like convertibles.

 

[reilo]

Yeah, you "covered" the Miata by saying "but it's a convertible" but I'll let that slide because I'm not getting through to you.

The Mustang V6 is not a competitor for this car. Yes, it has lots more power but they are after completely different demographics and have completely different philosophies behind them. The Genesis is much more a competitor to the Mustang than it is to the 86, weighs 600 pounds more and only has 10hp more (for the base $22,500 model).

What you should be comparing this car to is the Miata, Mini Cooper S, Volkswagen GTI, Civic Si and other cars in that vein. Of its competition it's just the Miata and the 86 that will be light and RWD.

I am just saying that there are cars that offer much more car for the same (or even less!) amount of money. Mentioning that the MX-5 is a convertible is again coming down to the value argument.

Both the Mini and Volkswagen are entry-level luxury vehicles in a class above Toyota. The Civic Si is a turd and overpriced, too.

If this thing ends up costing $25k or up I'll agree that it's overpriced but I very much doubt that will happen and expect a price in the $22-23k range.

I wouldn't hold my breath. As far as I recall, even Toyota's original target MSRP was $20k.

Now you're just making up reasons not to like the thing.

I'm not looking for reasons to dislike this thing, the reasons are there for all to see. Besides, what's the point of making such comment? I could easily just dismiss everything you say by proclaiming that you are completely ignoring the car's shortcomings, which there are a ton.

 

[ghostofsparta]

Totally serious question...how old are you and where do you live? A 350Z is a fantastic car (it was my first 'real' car), but you need to be a mature driver and live in an area where the winters aren't existent or are not very harsh. Or at the very least, have alternate means of transport.

Basically, you have to be careful.

I'm 20 and I live in California so winters aren't a problem. I'm definitely not a mature driver. I had to walk to high school and now I take the bus in college. I do have experience driving but not much.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

I'm not looking for reasons to dislike this thing, the reasons are there for all to see. Besides, what's the point of making such comment? I could easily just dismiss everything you say by proclaiming that you are completely ignoring the car's shortcomings, which there are a ton.

The point of making such a comment is that we're finally seeing a lightweight, great handling, superb chassis having, RWD coupe return to the market (the last of its like being what...the 240sx?) and you're lambasting it over, of all things, being too expensive when it's at the low end of its competitor's prices. I already said it would be overpriced at $25k and is much better suited for a $22-23k price, but for some reason you think it should be below $20k.

I think that's what gets me, that you really think <$20k is an appropriate price for this car. No way was that ever going to happen and you were being unreasonable to think that were the case. A more powerful, lighter, better handling, RWD scion tC for just $2k more? Really?

And what shortcomings am I overlooking?

Edit: My mistake, I thought the tC was $17.5k, not $19.3k, so you were expecting a significantly better car for $600 more. Okay.

 

[Funky Papa]

There are two types of MX5 owner - track racers and people who are menopausal enough to want to buy a PT Cruiser, but are smart enough not to.

 

[Stinkles]

Don't worry, one of my lottery dream cars is a Mazdaspeed MX5, but the stats don't lie, mang.

 

[reilo]

The point of making such a comment is that we're finally seeing a lightweight, great handling, superb chassis having, RWD coupe return to the market (the last of its like being what...the 240sx?) and you're lambasting it over, of all things, being too expensive when it's at the low end of its competitor's prices. I already said it would be overpriced at $25k and is much better suited for a $22-23k price, but for some reason you think it should be below $20k.

I think that's what gets me, that you really think <$20k is an appropriate price for this car. No way was that ever going to happen and you were being unreasonable to think that were the case. A more powerful, lighter, better handling, RWD scion tC for just $2k more? Really?

And what shortcomings am I overlooking?

Edit: My mistake, I thought the tC was $17.5k, not $19.3k, so you were expecting a significantly better car for $600 more. Okay.

I never said below $20k MSRP. Re-read what I said again.

Just because the car tries to achieve these things, it doesn't mean that it does them well or that it's worth the money.

 

[Smokey]

The 2012 BMW 6 series looks great to me. The 650i customized to my liking runs 97k. Why :/. If you had the means to purchase a 100k car would you buy this? Seems crazy overpriced (I know BMW etc etc) to me...

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

I never said below $20k MSRP. Re-read what I said again.

Just because the car tries to achieve these things, it doesn't mean that it does them well or that it's worth the money.

You said that the car was $5k too much, and if it were $25k or under that would put it in the $20k and under range. If you meant just over $20k, you still weren't going to see this car come in at a $1k premium over the tC. And I like how you know* that the car has already failed at what it attempted without driving it or there existing a single in-depth review beyond "I drove it and it was a whole lot of fun, can't wait to see more!"

I'm reserving judgment until I can drive it myself, but if it meets its goals respectably well the price point will be spot on.

* - edit: assume

 

[reilo]

You said that the car was $5k too much, and if it were $25k or under that would put it in the $20k and under range. If you meant just over $20, you still weren't going to see this car come in at a $1k premium over the tC. And I like how you know that the car has already failed at what it attempted without driving it or there existing a single in-depth review beyond "I drove it and it was a whole lot of fun, can't wait to see more!"

I'm reserving judgment until I can drive it myself, but if it meets its goals respectably well the price point will be spot on.

It's ugly, it's going to be expensive, it has 150lb of torque at 6600RPM, and it doesn't do anything new or exciting. At the end of the day, it's also a Toyota. Why would anyone put this much faith in post-2000 Toyota making an exciting car?

Anyhow:

Mazda claims that its i-ELOOP system will be featured in the first production passenger vehicle with recaptured energy from regenerative braking stored in a capacitor. The rest of the bits and pieces behind the tech include a variable voltage alternator and a DC/DC converter that sends energy otherwise lost to heat in the brakes at up to 25 volts to the Electric Double Layer Capacitor, where it's stored for later use.

There's no electric motor in the i-ELOOP drivetrain, so the capacitor releases its energy to recharge the car's battery and to help power electric components like the heating and air conditioning systems. All in, Mazda promises fuel savings of up to 10 percent over cars not equipped with regenerative braking.