Thirty7ven
Banned
Because the powers that be have again managed to shift cultural discourse away from the real problem.
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The Batman - Review Thread
- Thread starter Represent.
- Start date
Because the powers that be have again managed to shift cultural discourse away from the real problem.
SafeOrAlone
Banned
It’s not like Selina is the bastion of all truth in the film. It’s on character.
sol_bad
Member
Also, people pick up on a white people bad and black people are good theme for some reason.
It's more than that. The casting is VERY deliberate. EVERY single person batman hits in this film is a white male. Every one of penguns men, every acolyte of the riddle, every victim, every thug in the subway.
Yet Gotham itself is shown to be extremely racially diverse.
Heck, the gang initiate is the only black guy, and his face is left half painted so the audience KNOWS he is black. Even casting Kyle as mixed race highlights that she is "half bad, half good".
You can choose to ignore it, but it was a very real thing in the film that must have required several discussions during production.
Badlucktroll
Member
A good plot for mr freeze in this new continuity would be if freeze and his wife are terminally ill (his wife has it much worse) she is frozen, and he has to keep himself cold to survive and cure them both (while also suffering horrible frostbite damage on his body because of the process) i am talking bones showing in black fingers, no nose, ect
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SafeOrAlone
Banned
It’s hard to see this as disproportionate when the coolest character in the film, who, deep down, everyone wants to be, is a white guy.
I never felt the message of the film was that white people are bad. I think there are extra checks and balances that the studio is probably making to avoid any type of viral backlash or upset that would tank their investment. There are probably some strange procedures they go through, in order to make sure every “community” is happy with the film. That’s weird.
But I didn’t ever feel that the film made a point that being white is lesser in any way. Again, the most badass character is still a white man, which counts for something.
Richard Packer
Member
AlteredForms
Banned
Watched the movie on Thursday and thoroughly enjoyed it. The only thing I hated was the cowl design and the hallway fight where none of the goons thought it wise to shoot Bats in the face.
If the film could have been more focused on the cat girl storyline then I think the delicious irony that her crusade against white wealth in Gotham is assisted by the most whitest wealthy guy in Gotham, a guy whose white privilege literally lets him beat up folks and then walk in and out of rooms full of cops, would ha e had a nice payoff.
But the split between the riddlers revenge, catgirls revenge, and Bruce's own relevation of his father diluted the message a bit and I felt the third act spoiled what could have been an awesome batman versus SAW story.
Not a fan of the Jamie Kennedy-esque Joker either, hope we never see him for more than that little bit.
Did anyone else get the Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze "don't talk in theaters" intro? Damn, give that guy another crack at the role
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
fran.fernandez
Member
I didn’t get why bill gates was the enemy.
Also, cat woman and Bruce Wayne were so lame. Hope the make a new version with more Batman / penguin
Also, cat woman and Bruce Wayne were so lame. Hope the make a new version with more Batman / penguin
funkygunther
Banned
He hits Jeffrey Wright
GeekyDad
Member
Hope they put Batman to bed for a while. It's exhausted.
FunkMiller
Member
I‘m pretty sure some of the people whining about this movie and wokeness haven’t actually seen it.
strange headache
Banned
He wants to be hit so that Batman can escape from the police station and to prevent James Gordon from becoming an accomplice.
I didn't know that diversity was a zero sum game.
"We've got this one cool white character, so we need several bad white characters to balance things out" is not a compelling argument.
funkygunther
Banned
strange headache
Banned
So it is clearly a staged/faked punch and not at all the same as a real hit.
funkygunther
Banned
He does comment that it was harder than expecting, but all of this is irrelevant.
strange headache
Banned
No it is certainly not "irrelevant". One is an act of violence and antagonism, the other is an act of compassion and cooperation.
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funkygunther
Banned
Yes, and? Nothing to do with the point or what I was quoting. Irrelevant. Scroll up and go read again.
strange headache
Banned
funkygunther
Banned
I would suggest letting him speak for himself. Unless he has a habit of making declarative authoritive statements that turn out completely wrong.
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strange headache
Banned
The f*ck, you are just being deliberately obtuse because your counter-argument makes no sense at all.
funkygunther
Banned
No I am being the opposite of obtuse. I am taking words as they are. Scroll up, go read again.
strange headache
Banned
No you are not, this is clearly what he meant by "hitting somebody". You are not arguing in good faith and misrepresenting his comment.
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SafeOrAlone
Banned
No one is making that argument. Nice try.
strange headache
Banned
I literally quoted you making that argument...
funkygunther
Banned
"Clearly what he meant" is your interpretation of what he meant. I am representing his comment to the exact words being used. They are still wrong, despite your interpretation.
strange headache
Banned
It is really not hard to see that a "staged/fake" hit is NOT the same as a "real" hit... this is getting ridiculous.
SafeOrAlone
Banned
How ridiculous of you.
You quoted my post, then created your own twisted version of it… which is clearly not what I said in the post you quoted me on, and are now ascribing that to me.
Again, nice try.
In fact, the part of my post which you neglected to quote expands on my feelings that white characters aren’t being portrayed as “bad”, further contradicting your made up interpretation of my post.
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funkygunther
Banned
It is ridiculous, but just thanks to you. Staged/fake vs real is something you're adding and then arguing. Classic strawman. Scroll up, read again.
strange headache
Banned
You literally said that all the white people being bad and corrupt and the black people being good and decent doesn't matter because Batman is double plus cool.
Which is the EXACT definition of a zero sum game.
strange headache
Banned
So for you a toy car is just the same as a real car... since both are "cars" in the literal sense, doesn't matter if one is fake and the other real.
SafeOrAlone
Banned
I also think you’re taking crazy pills.You literally said that all the white people being bad and corrupt and the black people being good and decent doesn't matter because Batman is double plus cool.
Which is the EXACT definition of a zero sum game.
At the very least, you’re misusing the word “literally”, because that is literally not what i said.
It’s bizarre that you are quoting my actual posts….and then making up your own words, and putting them in my mouth, directly beneath my actual quote.
The issue is you are embellishing my point with all this junk about “white people are portrayed as bad and that’s okay!” Which is not what I said at all.
In fact, I further expand on that, in the part of my post you neglected to quote.
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funkygunther
Banned
So for you a toy car is just the same as a real car... since both are "cars" in the literal sense, doesn't matter if one is fake and the other real.
Glad you agree with me. The statement is still wrong, so scroll up and read again.
Had I remembered that Batman struck Gordon I would have said "nearly almost every" just to prevent a semantic refute of my point.
But the Gordon hit was about at the level of a Will Smith slap AND Gordon is a cop and ACAB is probably a theme in the film at some level so I think my point is pretty clear. I'm sure batman takes a half hearted swing at cat girl at some point as well but that doesn't absolve batman of the fact that his violent justice is reserved for only white men and the film deliberately makes that point.
Had cat girl not said that one line though then it could have just been casting coincidence and a dearth of non white stuntmen to be tossed around by a very lean Pattinson. As it is, I think it's very hard to deny the filmmakers intention to add a racial angle to the film.
But the Gordon hit was about at the level of a Will Smith slap AND Gordon is a cop and ACAB is probably a theme in the film at some level so I think my point is pretty clear. I'm sure batman takes a half hearted swing at cat girl at some point as well but that doesn't absolve batman of the fact that his violent justice is reserved for only white men and the film deliberately makes that point.
Had cat girl not said that one line though then it could have just been casting coincidence and a dearth of non white stuntmen to be tossed around by a very lean Pattinson. As it is, I think it's very hard to deny the filmmakers intention to add a racial angle to the film.
DKehoe
Gold Member
How can ACAB be a theme when at the end there's a mass of good cops who can't be bought off there to arrest Falcone? Falcone takes the view that he can't be taken down because the police force is such a corrupt entity and is proven wrong. The film goes out of it's way to make the point that all cops aren't bastards, to the point where I've seen others try and claim it's "copaganda"
strange headache
Banned
No no, you don't understand. Context and intent are irrelevant. Hitting is hitting you see, it's all the same.
/s
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I recently watched the movie and the gang in the beginning is indeed mixed. Other than Tim Drake from Titans, you can clearly see several black gang members. Young Tim isn't the only POC in the gang. I think I remember one Asian kid in there, too.
That said, Batman is fighting the mob... Which, historically, is mostly or almost exclusively portrayed as white. Plus his investigation is taking him to Falcone... Not other gangs that might be POC or the triads or whatnot. Levers of power are still mostly white helmed. Even standouts like the last 3 Atlanta mayors or others, they are the minority (pun intended) in racial makeup of high level government and industry figures.
That said, Batman is fighting the mob... Which, historically, is mostly or almost exclusively portrayed as white. Plus his investigation is taking him to Falcone... Not other gangs that might be POC or the triads or whatnot. Levers of power are still mostly white helmed. Even standouts like the last 3 Atlanta mayors or others, they are the minority (pun intended) in racial makeup of high level government and industry figures.
If course ACAB is horseshit in the real world , but does cat girl believe it? She also thinks rich white men rule Gotham and deserve to be punished but I bet there are non white non males up there as well. She has a myopic and biased view of things like all identity focused folks. A theme isn't a natural law.
As for the cops that arrest Falcone, corrupt folks taking down other corrupt folks to make way for new corrupt folks isn't exactly a stretch. Penguin could have orchestrated it all (the Riddler certainly planned/predicted his window of opportunity extremely well) and that wouldn't negate an ACAB perspective.
For the record, The Batman was such a mess that none of these things is particularly clear, probably more due to inadequate skill of the script rather than a deliberate choice to dance around it. I'm drawing intent from the filmmakers based on what survived the editing process and it seems pretty clear to me that having a racial statement was their goal.
Billbofet
Member
Can't imagine watching any movie through this lens of check-marking white folks and POC's.
That said, I like the movie a lot more on my second viewing.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
The movie is great... I just think twisting this into "a racial angle" is borderline stupid. So I push against it because the "logic" is faulty.
DKehoe
Gold Member
But what Catwoman says and what the film is saying is two different things. Besides, taking one thing she said and then extrapolating another opinion from that and then saying that's one of the themes of the films seems like quite a stretch. As does saying all of those cops were actually corrupt and that whole thing was orchestrated by Penguin. What makes you say one of the themes of the film is probably ACAB?
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
He's pulling ish out of thin air.
In the comics, the shoes and movies, cops are ALWAYS corrupt. That isn't news. And Batman has ALWAYS fought the mob IN ADDITION TO the supervillains.
DKehoe
Gold Member
Yeh, with the power of hope being such a big theme in the film it seemed like the point of all the good cops showing up to arrest Falcone was to demonstrate that while there might certainly be corrupt elements within GCPD there's also still good people there fighting for what's right.
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Really? Her line is literally "All anyone cares about in this place are these white privileged assholes: the mayor, the commissioner, the DA, now Thomas and Bruce Wayne. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that psycho is right to go after these creeps." right?
So SHE, and by proxy the scriptwriters, inject race SPECIFICALLY. It would have been class if she had just said "rich privileged assholes" and not even class if it was just "those assholes". But nooooooo, they had to throw in a little nod to trendy politicks. And if they went that direction, surely an ACAB vibe isn't far behind given that in almost every batman story Gordon, and maybe a few others, are the ONLY cops worth a damn (though this is essential to allowing Batman to exist, if the police were operating like the Stakeout Squad in 1970's NYC, Batman would seem to be benign by comparison).
The casting of everyone Batman punches "for reals" just happening to be a white guy you could overlook but in context of the rest seems quite deliberate. The "white face gang" on the subway is just straight up blatant, if there was any other race other than white guys and the "half white" black guy who DOESN'T get beaten up (like was this the very first time he ever considered something illegal and violent?) it's buried under the.....white face paint.
Normally this wouldn't be a problem. The white face gang is spooky and seeing them getting pummeled is satisfying and par for the course for Batman. All the scene really needed was some "BAM", "BOOF", "WHAP!" graffiti on the walls shown in cuts between punches (really, how did that slip by??) to illustrate that Batman has been doing this kinda thing for decades. But again, in context with the rest of the film, the ONLY guys buying Riddler internet nonsense is white dudes, the ONLY guys hired by the Penguin are white dudes, etc etc it starts to be pretty damn clear there is an ethnic divide in the film between good and bad. It ain't subtle, though it is sloppily delivered, probably at the time the film makers thought they were being clever.
Anyway, it doesn't really detract from the film since there is little in the film that merits ANY discussion. It is a grimy spectacle that goes on too long and can't figure out what it really wants to say beyond some topical blather and "hey, here is a new batman!". I appreciated some parts of it quite a bit but not sure it will, like most batman films (and superhero films in general, really) earn a lot of repeat viewing. For all their faults the funny and snappy MCU films are the most rewatchable for me, the DC pathos or descent into cheese of the earlier Bats and Supes films really limits them as evergreen films IMHO.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
this is still going on? jesus.
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I know, how dare we still be discussing a film that was released like a month ago
Next week we can debate the ever present issue of ageism and southern charm, is it charming or patronizing, of the (relatively) recently released movie "Fried Green Tomatoes "
Or Kentucky Fried Movie which is actually controversial enough now to merit real debate
SJRB
Gold Member
I know, how dare we still be discussing a film that was released like a month ago
Next week we can debate the ever present issue of ageism and southern charm, is it charming or patronizing, of the (relatively) recently released movie "Fried Green Tomatoes "
Or Kentucky Fried Movie which is actually controversial enough now to merit real debate
Don't be cunty. If any, this endless "woke / race" discussion sucks all the life and fun out of actually discussing this movie. This thread sucks to visit.