Support NeoGAF

[Cranzor]

Whoa. We're still only at Genki ch5 and that's quite a bit different than what we're learning. We have to conjugate as じゃないです、じゃなかった、くない、etc.

I don't really get particles either and I'm afraid that I'm starting to see patterns that aren't really there. に might be for actions that have movement involved (to something). So ききます for asking (&#12395 is you walking up to someone and ききます to listen (&#12434 is more passive. Same with waking to meet someone and waiting passively. I dunno. I'll have to look into it more and maybe visit the study group to get this stuff down.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure に is often used with verbs that involve interacting with a person. Particles can have more than one use, and に has multiple. The movement use is just one of them.

 

[CornBurrito]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure に is often used with verbs that involve interacting with a person. Particles can have more than one use, and に has multiple. The movement use is just one of them.

My teacher explained に and へ being used with motion verbs. に is also used with expressions of time (3:30, Sunday) and with locational phrases (ex. の上&#12395.

 

[Desmond]

Wow, some of these て+verb are really starting to confuse me.
Eg, て行く／てくる (some like 持っていく／持ってくる are ok, but I find this awfully confusing. )

ておく("something done in preparation for something", how my teacher put it. Does they thing you're preparing for have to be stated? )
てしまう (pretty sure I know this one. Means to do something completely, but sometimes (?) hints at a feeling of regret. )

 

[I'm an expert]

Try not to learn it literally. Don't think of motte kuru as the te form of motsu plus kuru. Don't think of it as hold+come. Just think of it as bring. Don't worry about "forming" it with the te form of blah blah. Motte kure is bring. Motte iku is take. The end.

Oku is almost like a pseudo future tense, you're doing something in preparation for something else (sometimes). But again, just learn to use it in what situation, not how to make it.

What you should learn is the te form of each verb, but not through memorizing shit like u/ru/irregular but just through use and practice. Takes time.

 

[Desmond]

Thanks!

Well, I've known all the て forms for a long time, and funnily enough, I had learned motteiku/mottekuru as the verb to take/bring a long time ago too.


I just got a little perplexed when I looking through advised grammar to learn for one of the JLPT levels.

 

[Fugu]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure に is often used with verbs that involve interacting with a person. Particles can have more than one use, and に has multiple. The movement use is just one of them.

に is a very diverse particle with lots of uses, and most of them come down to being either the origin or destination of movement. I'll try to give some very generalized explanations of its use.

1. With いる or ある (and other derived verbs describing existence), it's used to mark where something is. It is entirely interchangeable with へ here, and its usage in this way is pretty straightforward.
2. With passive verbs and ～てある constructions, it's used to mark who did the thing being done. その小論文が私に書かれた。 This usage is also pretty straightforward.
3. With verbs of giving and receiving （上げる,もらう, etc.), it indicates the other party in the transaction: ie, in もらう, it indicates who gave whatever it is being given; the receiver would be the subject. This also works when verbs of giving and receiving are being used as auxiliary verbs.
4. With な adjectives, に is used to make an adverb.
5. With なる, に is used to describe the new state of things. It is often combined with こと and よう, with ようになる implying a lack of control or deliberation. Note that there are many other uses for ように and a complete explanation of all of those would be quite long.
6. With する, 決める, and other verbs relating to decision, に indicates the decision arrived at.
7. With most other transitive verbs not listed, に is usually used to describe where something is moving to. This can be literal or abstract and is sometimes not intuitive.
8. With intransitive verbs involving movement (ie 引っ越&#12377 it indicates the location that one will be verbing to.
9. It's also used with a wide variety of words to indicate the time that something has happened or will happen.

There are a lot of ways to use に and it's a very difficult particle to translate a lot of the time. It also appears in a lot of compound particles with uses that have a tendency to confound beginners (にも especially, I think). The specific nuances of に have significantly hampered my comprehension of a passage many a time.

 

[Ledsen]

Try not to learn it literally. Don't think of motte kuru as the te form of motsu plus kuru. Don't think of it as hold+come. Just think of it as bring. Don't worry about "forming" it with the te form of blah blah. Motte kure is bring. Motte iku is take. The end.

Oku is almost like a pseudo future tense, you're doing something in preparation for something else (sometimes). But again, just learn to use it in what situation, not how to make it.

What you should learn is the te form of each verb, but not through memorizing shit like u/ru/irregular but just through use and practice. Takes time.

This is good advice. The only way to learn a language is to know which word or phrase is appropriate in a particular situation. Grammar is good to know while studying and helps deepen your understanding of certain aspects of a language, but useless in a live situation. Listening, reading, talking. Osmosis and trial and error. That's the only way to really learn. The situation is inseparable from the language. Taken to its logical conclusion, this means that (especially for a language so alien to most of us) "translating" everything into its english equivalent is often (not always) counterproductive to learning. It places the focus on the translation and all the cultural, social and linguistic baggage that comes with it rather than the context. What do you say when greeting your neighbor? You say this and this. What does it mean in english? It means that you're greeting your neighbor. Many people who study languages are obsessed with translating everything because they think that makes it easier to understand, when the opposite is often true.

Don't get me wrong, translating is extremely useful. Especially for simple words and phrases that do have direct equivalents and very little baggage (so to speak). But it gets too much credit. It's not a universal solution. No one should strive to speak Japanese in English.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Desmond]

This is good advice. The only way to learn a language is to know which word or phrase is appropriate in a particular situation. Grammar is good to know while studying and helps deepen your understanding of certain aspects of a language, but useless in a live situation. Listening, reading, talking. Osmosis and trial and error. That's the only way to really learn. The situation is inseparable from the language. Taken to its logical conclusion, this means that (especially for a language so alien to most of us) "translating" everything into its english equivalent is often (not always) counterproductive to learning. It places the focus on the translation and all the cultural, social and linguistic baggage that comes with it rather than the context. What do you say when greeting your neighbor? You say this and this. What does it mean in english? It means that you're greeting your neighbor. Many people who study languages are obsessed with translating everything because they think that makes it easier to understand, when the opposite is often true.

Don't get me wrong, translating is extremely useful. Especially for simple words and phrases that do have direct equivalents and very little baggage (so to speak). But it gets too much credit. It's not a universal solution. No one should strive to speak Japanese in English.

Sorry for the rant.

Don't apologise, thanks for the input.

Appreciate it.

 

[robox]

i'll be heading to japan for a few months in about a week. been looking around for a school to learn japanese. any recommendations in tokyo?

looking to do about 8 hours a week. found some up to 20 hours. i'm somewhat at beginner level. i know my kana and some sentence structure and a tiny bit of kanji

i feel like I need more structure of a class or else i'll slack off

 

[DMB4237]

Hey guys,

I'm quite new here. I started taking Japanese last May, and now I'm doing some translation exercises for class. I was hoping someone could explain 入れる in the context of paying expenses. I have the following concerning 橋本くん:

食費，電気代などを入れて、いか月の生活費は、十万円ぐらいです。

I translated it as "Hashimoto pays for expenses such as food and electricity, and his monthly living expenses are around 100,000 yen."

Any one know if I'm correct in saying "pays" here?

 

[Zoe]

It's more like, "adding in food, electricity, etc., one month's living expenses are around 100,000 yen."

 

[DMB4237]

It's more like, "adding in food, electricity, etc., one month's living expenses are around 100,000 yen."

Ahh thank you. That actually makes sense.

I found two more things that I got stuck one.

また、時々サークルのみんなと飲みにいく。

I take it to mean that "He sometimes goes out to drink with everyone from his club" but I don't understand the また there. I know it means again, but can't really comprehend its use here.

Also,

来週から試験がはじまる。

I imagine this means "His exams will begin next week" but why is there a から?

Any help is appreciated!

 

[I'm an expert]

Ahh thank you. That actually makes sense.

I found two more things that I got stuck one.

また、時々サークルのみんなと飲みにいく。

I take it to mean that "He sometimes goes out to drink with everyone from his club" but I don't understand the また there. I know it means again, but can't really comprehend its use here.

Also,

来週から試験がはじまる。

I imagine this means "His exams will begin next week" but why is there a から?

Any help is appreciated!

I don't know if all of these sentences are in one paragraph, but see how you used "also" in your post? Think of it like that. Just because they taught you "mata means again" doesn't mean that's the only thing it means. If you look it up in any dictionary it will most likely say stuff like "also" or "in addition." One of those, learn by using, not by reading the literal meaning instances.. though in this case it can literally mean one thing or another.

Kara also has multiple meanings. I'm assuming you've learned one of them to be "from" in which case the usagesimply means that starting from next week he'll have his tests. While it might just be expressing the exams begin next week, you can also think of it as expressing the idea that the exams have a continues nature, perhaps not just confined to one day or one week (maybe the context makes it clearer), as opposed to the sentence of raishuu ni which would simply say that they are next week. It's a subtle nuance that doesn't change the meaning that much, but if I said to you "You have a meeting at 6" and "You have a meeting from 6"..could you tell me the difference?

 

[Aizo]

Do most people just come here for help with their homework?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I take it to mean that "He sometimes goes out to drink with everyone from his club" but I don't understand the また there. I know it means again, but can't really comprehend its use here.

Also,

I looked at this for like two minutes before I realized you weren't answering yourself on purpose. Fun coincidence.

Do most people just come here for help with their homework?

Eh, the thread has been going on for over five years now. There have been many different topics covered. Seems like most people posting here now are interested in homework help, though.

 

[I'm an expert]

I used to ignore those kind of posts but lately there's not much else in this thread and it's like..why am I even coming if I don't at least answer some questions. Clearly I'm not studying nor need help with Japanese, so might as well try to contribute something.

 

[DMB4237]

May be late, but thanks for the help! I'll come here more often with non-homework questions. God knows I have plenty of those when I'm thinking about Japanese

 

[Desmond]

I don't get homework, lol. I just come here when I can't grasp something.

 

[Kansoku]

I'm studying be myself. Everything and nothing is a homework to me.

 

[Max]

NihonGAF, do any of you write any blogs for writing practice? I had an ameblo way back when I first started learning Japanese, but I wasn't a huge fan of all the fluff (games etc) that made the UI messy.

I'd love to start writing a daily diary type blog again and it'd be great to share that with everyone here Any suggestions are most welcome.

Yep ive been using this to write blogs daily about my life in Japan, been lazy the past week though haha

add me

Also te-form fucks me. I have no problem converting to na form and dictionary form but the te form is the worst on my tests. And as a result i'm having trouble doing ta-form because it's literally the same process.

Something about groups I, II, and III but I can't wrap my head around why 帰ります turns to 帰って etc.

 

[Susurrus]

http://www.wanikani.com/ (Helps with learning Kanji. You got to be lucky with getting in the Beta though. And if you buy Textfugu you get immediate access I believe. I got in the WaniKani beta first then bought Textfugu, so I'm not sure about that immediate access.)

Thanks for the suggestion. Been using it for a while now. Somewhere on level 2, but I've already learned not only a bunch of kanji, but other readings and uses for kanji I already knew. Inadvertently, I learned a bunch of new vocab in the process.

Spending a bunch of money on trips and such right now, but I wanted to subscribe, so I am going w/ the monthly plan $8. I'll prob change to the yearly one in a few months as you do only pay the equivalent of 10 months instead of all 12 you get.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Yep ive been using this to write blogs daily about my life in Japan, been lazy the past week though haha

add me

Also te-form fucks me. I have no problem converting to na form and dictionary form but the te form is the worst on my tests. And as a result i'm having trouble doing ta-form because it's literally the same process.

Something about groups I, II, and III but I can't wrap my head around why 帰ります turns to 帰って etc.

You're making it too complicated

Memorize the "poem" in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQlq-hxWRzQ

It makes conjugation a fucking breeze.

 

[Stuart444]

You're making it too complicated

Memorize the "poem" in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQlq-hxWRzQ

It makes conjugation a fucking breeze.

That's an interesting poem and the second video explaining it helps (though たべって is a bit weird since I usually see it as たべ&#12390.

Also because of those two videos, I read the bolded word in the guys (in the video) voice.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I forgot to mention that he made some sort of mistake in the second video and that you should focus solely on the mnemonic

 

[NinjaCarrot]

That's an interesting poem and the second video explaining it helps (though たべって is a bit weird since I usually see it as たべ&#12390.

Also because of those two videos, I read the bolded word in the guys (in the video) voice.

Haha yeah same here!

 

[ImpassionateGods]

So I've been doing terrible with kanji lately. I forget 80% of the kanji I've learned, and new ones are sticking in my memory for less than a couple hours, even just focusing on about 10 per week. I've purchased Remembering the Kanji, and I'm going to start reading through that, but Anki is the least intuitive thing I've ever attempted to use, and I'm wondering what some of the other study methods you all use are.

 

[Shouta]

I just read manga and look up characters that I don't know. It helps with understanding them in context but it's pretty incomplete as a method if you want to know all the readings and how to write it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I just read manga and look up characters that I don't know. It helps with understanding them in context but it's pretty incomplete as a method if you want to know all the readings and how to write it.

Learning through context is definitely the best method, in my opinion. If you have ample time, you can also have some rote memorization time as part of your day, too. The rote memorization will probably be easier, too, since you're bound to recognize things from your reading books/manga, watching TV, etc. and that will help you retain the information more easily.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yep ive been using this to write blogs daily about my life in Japan, been lazy the past week though haha

add me

Also te-form fucks me. I have no problem converting to na form and dictionary form but the te form is the worst on my tests. And as a result i'm having trouble doing ta-form because it's literally the same process.

Something about groups I, II, and III but I can't wrap my head around why 帰ります turns to 帰って etc.

One thing that may come in handy is to think about the ます form. If, when you convert it from the dictionary form, it ends in ります, for example, it will most certainly be って/った, whereas if it ends in just ます, it will be て/た without the　っ.

Examples:

帰る（かえる）：　帰ります（かえります）　→　帰った（かえった）
変える（かえる）：　変えます（かえます）　→　変えた（かえた）

焦る（あせる）：　焦ります（あせります）　→　焦った（あせった）
褪せる（あせる）：　褪せます（あせます）　→　褪せた（あせた）

Just a couple of examples where the dictionary form looks the same in Hiragana, but there's an easy way to know how to conjugate the verb as long as you know the ます form.

 

[shanshan310]

So I've been doing terrible with kanji lately. I forget 80% of the kanji I've learned, and new ones are sticking in my memory for less than a couple hours, even just focusing on about 10 per week. I've purchased Remembering the Kanji, and I'm going to start reading through that, but Anki is the least intuitive thing I've ever attempted to use, and I'm wondering what some of the other study methods you all use are.

Anki is great for sorting words and showing the ones you have difficulty with more, but honestly I found it easier to make up my own flash cards and use them. It takes longer, but you get time to think about the character as you write it onto the card etc. There's no magic bullet, but RTK has helped. As others have said learning through context is great. I learnt a lot of daily use kanji from going to karaoke and watching Japanese shows with Japanese subtitles. I can't write them well but reading is fine, and so far that's only been an issue in exam situations or if i have to fill out a form on the spot. Remembering the reading is more important in today's world anyway imo.

 

[erpg]

Thanks for the TE form discussion. I've got a week to get Genki chapter 6 down completely.

Okay so the little YouTube poem helped a lot (despite being a pain to watch) but it seems like he's skipping る verbs, which would screw me over when writing. Back to Genki.

 

[NinjaCarrot]

So I've been doing terrible with kanji lately. I forget 80% of the kanji I've learned, and new ones are sticking in my memory for less than a couple hours, even just focusing on about 10 per week. I've purchased Remembering the Kanji, and I'm going to start reading through that, but Anki is the least intuitive thing I've ever attempted to use, and I'm wondering what some of the other study methods you all use are.

RTK will help massively, just do exactly what he says and you'll be golden

 

[Kansoku]

Anki is great for sorting words and showing the ones you have difficulty with more, but honestly I found it easier to make up my own flash cards and use them. It takes longer, but you get time to think about the character as you write it onto the card etc. There's no magic bullet, but RTK has helped.

When going trough RTK I would have a notebook by my side, so that I could draw thew kanji, then I would go to RTK forums, see the mnemonics people put for that kanji and copy the kanji into my Anki deck. For reviewing I would use AnkiDroid because it have a white board function, so i would drawn the kanji on my screen and then compare my drawing with the answer.

 

[Aizo]

What do you all think about ending sentences in ぞ/ぜ？
例えば、「あの曲はやばいぞ！」　or 「あいつは、いい奴だぜ。」
I live in Tokyo, and some of my Japanese friends think it sounds fine, albeit a bit macho, while my friend from 関西 thinks nobody really talks like that, and if they did, they would sound like an anime character.

Maybe I just watch too many ヤクザ/ヤンキー　films/shows.

 

[Gacha-pin]

What do you all think about ending sentences in ぞ/ぜ？
例えば、「あの曲はやばいぞ！」　or 「あいつは、いい奴だぜ。」
I live in Tokyo, and some of my Japanese friends think it sounds fine, albeit a bit macho, while my friend from 関西 thinks nobody really talks like that, and if they did, they would sound like an anime character.

Maybe I just watch too many ヤクザ/ヤンキー　films/shows.

特になんとも思わないぞ。逆にそこに目が行く人がいることを知って新鮮な気分なんだぜ。

 

[Aizo]

特になんとも思わないぞ。逆にそこに目が行く人がいることを知って新鮮な気分なんだぜ。

I guess some Japanese people just think it sounds odd while others think it's completely fine. Thanks for the very appropriate response. I'll keep on talking the way I do, then.

 

[PKrockin]

You're making it too complicated

Memorize the "poem" in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQlq-hxWRzQ

It makes conjugation a fucking breeze.

I love this guy. He made a ton of mistakes in his videos, but with the same painfully stiff, formal and scripted instructional style/banter that seems to be everywhere in online Japanese teaching/resources, the concept of some smarmy dude in a graduation cap chugging beer and cussing a storm in front of his fridge is just so refreshing and amusing. It's so... un-Japanese. It makes me genuinely want to watch his other videos despite not needing to. I wish someone would apply that style to a more solid curriculum.

 

[CornBurrito]

Anki is great for sorting words and showing the ones you have difficulty with more, but honestly I found it easier to make up my own flash cards and use them. It takes longer, but you get time to think about the character as you write it onto the card etc. There's no magic bullet, but RTK has helped. As others have said learning through context is great. I learnt a lot of daily use kanji from going to karaoke and watching Japanese shows with Japanese subtitles. I can't write them well but reading is fine, and so far that's only been an issue in exam situations or if i have to fill out a form on the spot. Remembering the reading is more important in today's world anyway imo.

Shanshan can you help me locate Japanese shows with Japanese subtitles.

 

[I'm an expert]

I love this guy. He made a ton of mistakes in his videos, but with the same painfully stiff, formal and scripted instructional style/banter that seems to be everywhere in online Japanese teaching/resources, the concept of some smarmy dude in a graduation cap chugging beer and cussing a storm in front of his fridge is just so refreshing and amusing. It's so... un-Japanese. It makes me genuinely want to watch his other videos despite not needing to. I wish someone would apply that style to a more solid curriculum.

Yooo..thank you for this post. It made click on the video and see this guy. Though I'm guessing he's just a character for his videos..I think a lot of us know exactly what he's a character of.. and it's as hilarious as always. Also his kansai-ben video is honestly a decent beginner's guide after you cut through the jokes.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

He made learning the Kana a delight. Be sure to check out his masu/polite form video.

 

[Stuart444]

What do you guys think of his pronunciation? Posted it somewhere else and most folks thought his pronunciation sucked. (Especially his Rs).

I honestly never thought much of it when I watched the vid and the Poem (which I can still remember now) did help me so *shrugs*

 

[erpg]

I thought the poem was great. Much better than the crazy anthem they give you in Genki. But I wouldn't be able to stomach any more of that persona.

 

[shanshan310]

Shanshan can you help me locate Japanese shows with Japanese subtitles.

To be honest I'm not sure, I just turned on the subtitles on the tv :| but a lot of shows (especially news shows) use headlines etc that you can read, and if you look up Japanese films/shows often you can find ones with multisub options. Downloading shows from Itunes might work?

I love this guy. He made a ton of mistakes in his videos, but with the same painfully stiff, formal and scripted instructional style/banter that seems to be everywhere in online Japanese teaching/resources, the concept of some smarmy dude in a graduation cap chugging beer and cussing a storm in front of his fridge is just so refreshing and amusing. It's so... un-Japanese. It makes me genuinely want to watch his other videos despite not needing to. I wish someone would apply that style to a more solid curriculum.

I totally agree. At least the videos were fun and interesting.

What do you guys think of his pronunciation? Posted it somewhere else and most folks thought his pronunciation sucked. (Especially his Rs).

I honestly never thought much of it when I watched the vid and the Poem (which I can still remember now) did help me so *shrugs*

It kind of just sounds like he's speaking English. Like when Western people say words like karaoke, hiroshima, karate. At least from what I saw.

 

[PKrockin]

What do you guys think of his pronunciation? Posted it somewhere else and most folks thought his pronunciation sucked. (Especially his Rs).

I honestly never thought much of it when I watched the vid and the Poem (which I can still remember now) did help me so *shrugs*

Yeah, his pronunciation is pretty off, too. Like shanshan said he doesn't try to pronounce words like the Japanese would pronounce them.

 

[Stuart444]

Since he seems to be in Japan (based on the vid), makes me wonder how he gets on there, at least when drunk XD.

 

[PKrockin]

Since he seems to be in Japan (based on the vid), makes me wonder how he gets on there, at least when drunk XD.

Well, apparently his wife is Japanese, so maybe she knows English and helps him with that sort of thing?

 

[Desmond]

Guys, quick question. Have a translation exam in January, but I'm on the lookout for a really good JPN-ENG dictionary. Due to some BS, we can't bring electronic dictionaries in so I need a decent print one. Tempted to get a used copy of 'Kenkyusha's New Collegiate Japanese-English Dictionary'. Anyone ever use it, or have any (cheapish) recommendations? Should probably get a Kanji dictionary too while I'm at it.



The stuff we've been translating, has been stuff by Murakami, Yoshimoto Banana and so on, so I assume the exam will be more of the same.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Since he seems to be in Japan (based on the vid), makes me wonder how he gets on there, at least when drunk XD.

I think he teaches English through the JET program. Last I heard of him he set up a Kickstarter to fund the second season of his YT cooking show, but one of his friends involved in the project took the donated money and ran.

 

[Stuart444]

but one of his friends involved in the project took the donated money and ran.

Oh man, that sucks.

 

[Nezumi]

Hi there Learning Japanese Gaf!

I'm in Japan at the moment and plan on hitting a Book-Off in the next days to buy me some none manga reading material. Problem is that aside from the classics and Murakami I'm not really familiar with Japanese authors and stuff. I'm looking for some light reading (light novels) preferably fantasy. It can be a bit silly but please no highschool romance or the likes. Any authors you guys can recommend?

Thanks in advance!