Aizo
Banned
キノの旅!
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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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キノの旅!
Sounds good. Thank you. Now there is only the challenge of actually finding it. I hate the way Book Off is sorted. Always takes ages to find what you want.
CornBurrito
Member
Super beginner level question:
"Let's wait in the coffee shop"
Would coffee shop take the particle で or に in this scenario? I want to say the former since the action takes place at that location. Is that correct?
"Let's wait in the coffee shop"
Would coffee shop take the particle で or に in this scenario? I want to say the former since the action takes place at that location. Is that correct?
Necromanti
Member
Since you are marking a place of an action, you'd be correct with choosing the former.
So in its most simplest rendition, 喫茶店で待ちましょう。(きっさてん で まちましょう。
Worry more about に if you're indicating directionality (whether literal or figurative), using certain adverbs, riding a vehicle, marking a specific time of an action, or placing/denoting the existence of something or someone somewhere. To start with, at least.
There are always "exceptions", or usages that are not immediately obvious. It also gets involved in some higher level grammar.
A pretty nifty resource that I wish I knew about earlier in my Japanese education is Weblio. The first tab is the regular dictionary, while the second tab 例文 (れいぶん
shows you example sentences containing whatever you search for in either Japanese or English. That's an easy way to see how certain particles or grammar are used. I cried tears of joy when I found the 古文 Weblio for my Classical Japanese class.
Aizo
Banned
I know that feeling. I remember when I was looking for キノの旅 at Book-Off, and I asked if they had it. They told me "No," but I found it 15 mins later... I believe I had to go to 3 or 4 different Book-Offs before I got the whole collection. You'll get used to how everything is laid out... at one store, and then you'll get lost in a different one. The Shibuya Book-Off's manga floor still confuses me. Too big.
Yeah. The problem with finding anything in the manga section at book off is, that knowing the name of the manga and the mangaka doesn't really help you at all. You have to know which magazine the manga was originally published in. And to confuse matters further most stuff can be found in two places. The one with the "normal" prices and the 105 Yen section. When I was looking for キノの旅 here in naha yesterday, I was dissapointed at first because I only found book 3, 5 and 7. Until I realized that I had been looking in the 105¥ section and that the rest of the books were standing in the next aisle...
Not to forget the possibilties that what you are looking for is hiding in one of the drawers below the shelfs.
What is even worse than finding manga is finding Cds. I still don't understand the sorting. So freaking confusing.
CornBurrito
Member
I'm starting to wish I was able to take Japanese earlier in college. At this rate I'll only have two years of it under my belt. Granted it will probably be easier to self-teach after that point, but I like the classroom setting a lot. I like being able to ask a native speaker questions. Though I suppose I could somewhat replicate it with online based lessons and a forum dedicated to learning Japanese. Does anyone know any good forums for discussing Japanese and asking questions about the language?
Aizo
Banned
I, too, don't really understand the CD sorting. Although, my friends are the ones who are usually checking those. I only buy CDs from concerts.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Real sorry to bug you guys...I'm trying to get my password reset for a Japanese forum I used to hang out at. I have to answer a captcha question which is asking me to answer the following question. Any clue what on Earth this is asking me?
安倍 晋三 Shinzō Abe's birthday ? 19XX0X21
安倍 晋三 Shinzō Abe's birthday ? 19XX0X21
shanshan310
Member
It looks like it just wants you to type his birthday out, so try 19540921 I guess?
Vincent Alexander
Member
Just tried and no dice. But you have to be right. I was just a moron and didn't realize who it was they were speaking of. I guess I just have to tinker and find out the format they're looking for? Never mind, got it. Think I had a space in there at the very end. Thanks, Shanshan.
John Rabbit
Banned
okay, i need some advice/input guys.
i am finding Japanese grammar to be exceedingly difficult. more to the point, remembering the myriad ways of expressing different conditional or qualitative statements (i.e. - if/then statements(〜たら, expressing causality, giving reasons for things(likeんです). the biggest issue is that the class i am enrolled in simply requires too much work outside of class to even begin to master these concepts. time i do not have. the curriculum moves way too fast, and even 先生 admits that the the 101/102 classes really ought to be 3 classes, but she has no control over it.
i've enrolled in the 201 classes next semester, but it is online only. i do not feel that i am ready for that class given how much i am struggling with the grammar. i'm maintaining an A in 102 right now, but it's mostly because i am strong in kanji, vocab retention, and reading comprehension. i'm thinking of dropping the 201 class and asking if i can audit next semester's 102 class and resume my self-studies for a semester. any thoughts on this?
moreover, are there any resources (online or book) that really enforce Japanese grammar practice? i am not confused by the concepts per se, but simply lack any real way of practicing them over and over with feedback. we have a workbook to complete in the class, but 先生 mostly checks for completion and not accuracy, so i could (and have when pressed for time) put in answers that i know are incorrect, and gotten a pass.
even a tool that just throws verbs at me and i have to conjugate them would suffice. so many of these grammar points rely on 〜た/て and plain forms, but i still require a moment to conjugate it in my head.
i am finding Japanese grammar to be exceedingly difficult. more to the point, remembering the myriad ways of expressing different conditional or qualitative statements (i.e. - if/then statements(〜たら
, expressing causality, giving reasons for things(likeんです). the biggest issue is that the class i am enrolled in simply requires too much work outside of class to even begin to master these concepts. time i do not have. the curriculum moves way too fast, and even 先生 admits that the the 101/102 classes really ought to be 3 classes, but she has no control over it.i've enrolled in the 201 classes next semester, but it is online only. i do not feel that i am ready for that class given how much i am struggling with the grammar. i'm maintaining an A in 102 right now, but it's mostly because i am strong in kanji, vocab retention, and reading comprehension. i'm thinking of dropping the 201 class and asking if i can audit next semester's 102 class and resume my self-studies for a semester. any thoughts on this?
moreover, are there any resources (online or book) that really enforce Japanese grammar practice? i am not confused by the concepts per se, but simply lack any real way of practicing them over and over with feedback. we have a workbook to complete in the class, but 先生 mostly checks for completion and not accuracy, so i could (and have when pressed for time) put in answers that i know are incorrect, and gotten a pass.
even a tool that just throws verbs at me and i have to conjugate them would suffice. so many of these grammar points rely on 〜た/て and plain forms, but i still require a moment to conjugate it in my head.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Why are you learning Japanese? Do you plan to use it in any way outside of class? Or did you need a language requirement and said fuck it I like Japanese stuff. I ask because if it was just fuck it or hey it'd be cool if I can read some manga, then there's really no reason to kill yourself over it. Obviously you want to take it seriously and want to do well in class, but why do you need such a level of mastery beyond doing well in class? If your goals are bigger in the long run, then realize classes like that will never get you the kind of mastery you're looking for it. You'll only get that from natural use in natural settings. Don't limit that to the idea of just speaking Japanese with Japanese people though, realize that reading a real book or the newspaper or watching an actual TV program are also examples of natural use, but they just target different skills - reading and listening. Maybe in the end those are the skills you want to hone anyway?
Auditing a language class seems like a waste of time and money, just go completely the self study route in that case so you can control the content and pace. You'll most likely always have access to your Japanese teachers whether you're in the class or not.
In the end just come to grips that even if you took 4 years of Japanese in college, without any outside work you'd come out with very little. The outside work is what does determine just how adept you get..or want to be.
Auditing a language class seems like a waste of time and money, just go completely the self study route in that case so you can control the content and pace. You'll most likely always have access to your Japanese teachers whether you're in the class or not.
In the end just come to grips that even if you took 4 years of Japanese in college, without any outside work you'd come out with very little. The outside work is what does determine just how adept you get..or want to be.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Hm? What do you mean conjugate? することを得 is a set phrase that has its own meaning, or do you mean how do you read the u at the end? Or do you mean the difference between these and ezu or ezaru?
Both exist, but I hear える　えない much more often. Also, have you ever heard the expression あり得ない （ありえない）? It's pretty common, you'll hear it a lot in anime and whatnot, and it means "impossible". If you want to say "it's possible", you can say both ありえる or ありうる. However, in my experience, ありうる is more common. That's the one case where うる is clearly more common than える.
Anyway, if it's negative, it's always える is what you should remember. The rest is up to you.
I did some research and it is marked as a nidan verb.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagoshima_verb_conjugations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagoshima_verb_conjugations
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Uhm..
No, I know all this. What I'm talking about is this...
http://jisho.org/words?jap=得&eng=&dict=edict
Notice that the first item on the list is 得, by itself, listed as a verb. It's also listed as WWWJDIC if you search for 得. It's also on some N2 material that I was flipping through.
Oh. Sorry about that. I have no idea how you're supposed to conjugate that. It's listed as archaic. I mean, it doesn't even make sense by modern Japanese standards. How could you conjugate a verb whose ending is also its kanji radical? Maybe you can't conjugate it actually. Maybe it only exists as う used in a specific expression (or several) and that's it. It wouldn't be a first in any language. French has a few verbs like that for instance.
Did you really find it listed on the N2 program? That can't be right.
Necromanti
Member
In classical Japanese, at least, it works. It's just one of the weird 下二段 verbs like 寝 (ぬ
. It gets confusing, because when you conjugate it...
(Made an example conjugation table that is accurate enough for the purposes I'm trying to get across. The ず、て、事、ば are not part of the verb conjugation and are only there to make it easier to understand.)
（未然形）得ず （えず）　「現代：得ない」
（連用形）得たり （えたり）「現代：得ました」
（終止形）得　　（う） 　 「現代：得る」
（連体形）得る事 （うる） 「現代：得る事」
（已然形）得れば （うれ） 「現代：得るので」
（命令形）得よ　 （えよ） 「現代：得ろ」
...the kanji can represent different syllables depending on the 助動詞 that follow. Let's just say that it really makes you miss ichidan. Basically, in the first three, you simply get え/え/う if you only look at how the verb itself conjugates, which are represented by just the kanji itself. (In classical Japanese, things like conjunctions and negatives are their own helper verbs that follow certain forms--the 助動詞.)
So it is indeed "archaic", and I wouldn't worry about it in modern Japanese.
EDIT: This probably explains it better than I did.
You can simply replace 得る（える）/得た（えた） with 得.
Gatacha-pinはFuguの質問に答える機会を得る。-->　Gatcha-pinはFuguの質問に答える機会を得。
But the above is the first time for me to use 得 alone instead of 得+る lol
I've never seen/heard anyone to use it (得 alone). I guess I've only seen it in poem/literature or a catch phrase in ad. まったく気にかける必要はないと思う。
Heh, thanks guys. Honestly I wasn't learning it out of necessity or anything, I was really just curious as to what it was as I'd never seen such a thing before.
Older Japanese interests me from a purely observational point of view. I have absolutely no real interest in exposing myself to the lifetime of headaches that I'm sure studying it would provide but it's still neat to know that it's there.
Older Japanese interests me from a purely observational point of view. I have absolutely no real interest in exposing myself to the lifetime of headaches that I'm sure studying it would provide but it's still neat to know that it's there.
Necromanti
Member
I decided to take a classical Japanese class to use towards my Japanese minor.
I regret everything.
OneEightZero
aka ThreeOneFour
I have so much homework over the holiday break.
CornBurrito
Member
Is it just Genki being dumb, or does Japanese actually have unique verbs for taking a bath and smoking tobacco that can't be used in other contexts?
The verb is the word after the particle. They're just using example situations.
Okay, guys. So, back a bit ago I was actually doing a trial translation in order to register through a company (by registering through their parent company, which is a bit of a run-around). I finally got the results back... and yet, though all the previous contact from them had come in English or bilingual, this one turned out to be a bit of a monster that was written out purely in Japanese. I've perused most of it, and I know for the most part what's going on, but I'd like confirmation on the all important first part (the rest is largely information on their payment rates, their system, and other stuff I probably shouldn't just throw on GAF and mostly understand anyway (outside of a massive 72 page user manual for their translation tool, which is a bridge I'll cross only if necessary, haha).) So, the first part reads:
内容を慎重に検討いたしました結果、弊社工業分野
日英翻訳者としてご登録いただきたく存じます。
ご連絡が遅くなりましたことをお詫びいたします
つきましては、弊社から登録用書類をお送りする前に
翻訳単価などについて確認させていただきたく存じます。
以下をご確認いただき、ご返信を頂戴できますでしょうか。
Now, am I reading that correctly in that they'd like me to confirm registration to their company (which I know I need to do), but it's also... as a translator in the manufacturing industry? The problems they sent me were all in that field, but I figured that was just to test my skills. But the weird thing is that the main work I'm looking for is (in the end) manga translation work (though I guess the other company does do other things, it's just the manga is what they seem to be open to hiring for). So yeah, I'm sure it's not an issue, but I'd love for someone to help double-check on the above contents at the very least.
Oh, and something small: I'm planning to send some Christmas gifts to my host family from my summer study abroad, and I want to include a letter, of course. The one thing off the top of my head that I'm wondering is how I should refer to their niece and nephew, who were middle and high school ages. Is it better to use the -san, or is that weird and I should go with -kun/-chan? I didn't really end up calling them by name while in Japan and thus avoided the issue, but now it's kind of unavoidable. Also, what's the usual way to someone is pregnant and expecting for such and such date? My sister-in-law is pregnant now and I definitely wanted to include that info. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I write this thing out as I am really not familiar with Japanese letter writing, but for now getting answers to these would be super helpful.
So yeah, a bit of a wall of text, but if anybody here could help me out it'd be very much appreciated!
内容を慎重に検討いたしました結果、弊社工業分野
日英翻訳者としてご登録いただきたく存じます。
ご連絡が遅くなりましたことをお詫びいたします
つきましては、弊社から登録用書類をお送りする前に
翻訳単価などについて確認させていただきたく存じます。
以下をご確認いただき、ご返信を頂戴できますでしょうか。
Now, am I reading that correctly in that they'd like me to confirm registration to their company (which I know I need to do), but it's also... as a translator in the manufacturing industry? The problems they sent me were all in that field, but I figured that was just to test my skills. But the weird thing is that the main work I'm looking for is (in the end) manga translation work (though I guess the other company does do other things, it's just the manga is what they seem to be open to hiring for). So yeah, I'm sure it's not an issue, but I'd love for someone to help double-check on the above contents at the very least.
Oh, and something small: I'm planning to send some Christmas gifts to my host family from my summer study abroad, and I want to include a letter, of course. The one thing off the top of my head that I'm wondering is how I should refer to their niece and nephew, who were middle and high school ages. Is it better to use the -san, or is that weird and I should go with -kun/-chan? I didn't really end up calling them by name while in Japan and thus avoided the issue, but now it's kind of unavoidable. Also, what's the usual way to someone is pregnant and expecting for such and such date? My sister-in-law is pregnant now and I definitely wanted to include that info. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I write this thing out as I am really not familiar with Japanese letter writing, but for now getting answers to these would be super helpful.
So yeah, a bit of a wall of text, but if anybody here could help me out it'd be very much appreciated!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
"After careful consideration of the results, we've decided that we'd like to register you as a Japanese to English translator for our industrial category. We apologize for the delay in getting back to you.
Before sending you the registration form(s), we'd like to confirm the per-word translation rate. Please take a look at the following and get back to us."
I hate to sound rude, but do you really feel that you're qualified to be doing professional translation work?
Like I said, I was asking for someone to double check. I was fairly certain that was what I was looking at, but seeing as this is my potential first job in the field I wanted to double check and make sure I wasn't missing anything (as I mentioned, I wasn't necessarily expecting it to be industrial work from the initial contact with the company, but I'm assuming it's a bit of a mismatch between the parent company and the subordinate company I was initially talking to).
Aka, I get kind of nervous and like to get confirmation from time to time, haha. Though I'm sure I actually do have the skills needed, I tend to second-guess myself since I haven't done any translation work before.
Edit: Oh yeah, thanks for the confirmation! Like I said, just kind of jittery since this'll be my first translation job!
CornBurrito
Member
I'm well aware the verb is after the particle. However the translations offered are "to take a bath" and "to smoke."
The verb "to take" was covered in a previous lesson as "torimasu." Which means that Genki genki some Japanese word that means roughly "to take" but that can be used in only specific contexts. I can't say "Ofuro ni torimasu" because somehow the regular word "to take" doesn't work in that context. And since it only gives "a bath" as an example it is fucking worthless wouldn't you agree?
Japanese would be incredibly hard to teach using only literal translations and you'll find yourself having a very difficult time if you expect them. お風呂に入る is just a set phrase for entering the bath, which means and is used the same way as the English expression "to take a bath". The 入る itself in the expression just means to enter. 吸う is also the set word you use with tobacco for smoking, but it can mean to breathe, inhale, suck, or other slightly nuanced differences depending on context.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I think you need to open your mind about how languages work. It's not just plug in the direct translation words from English and tada you understand a new language. Different languages express some things similarly and some things very differently. Japanese is going to frustrate you even more if you don't break that mental barrier.
Necromanti
Member
I think that's one of the things that make languages so interesting, and I mean, we see such set phrases all the time in English, too.
What may be encompassed by one word in English may be represented by various different verbs in Japanese, and at the same time, there are verbs with 18 different meanings (usually but not always with a common theme to them) in Japanese depending on their context. Sometimes I just think, "Wow, that sounds so crazy...but kind of makes sense." Most of it would be hard to abstract or guess even with context early on, so it helps to learn the patterns of how certain verbs and classes of objects go together for actions.
Even then, タバコをすう means to smoke, but I have also seen it rendered as タバコを飲む. They're obviously not drinking the tobacco. 飲む can also mean to swallow or ingest in the sense of "taking" medicine (including pills) with くすりを飲む, but that doesn't mean I can say おふろを飲む for taking a bath.
What may be encompassed by one word in English may be represented by various different verbs in Japanese, and at the same time, there are verbs with 18 different meanings (usually but not always with a common theme to them) in Japanese depending on their context. Sometimes I just think, "Wow, that sounds so crazy...but kind of makes sense." Most of it would be hard to abstract or guess even with context early on, so it helps to learn the patterns of how certain verbs and classes of objects go together for actions.
Even then, タバコをすう means to smoke, but I have also seen it rendered as タバコを飲む. They're obviously not drinking the tobacco. 飲む can also mean to swallow or ingest in the sense of "taking" medicine (including pills) with くすりを飲む, but that doesn't mean I can say おふろを飲む for taking a bath.
CornBurrito
Member
I understand this. But why wouldn't they offer more than one example for how the verb can be used? Or at least offer a reason for why "torimasu" can't be used with bath?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I'll blow your mind, you don't use toru for a shower or test either! Dun dun dun! I think they're just trying to get across that this is how you say these things, and that though toru may mean take in some situations, it isn't meant to be universal the way it may be in English. Hairu will have it's different uses as well, as will suu etc.
You learn 入る as 'enter' in the same chapter, actually. And now I'm learning the kanji for it in 7.
A good tip is to look up the verbs you don't understand and try to make sense of why it works in context. In the same chapter you learn to take a shower, right? And that verb is あびる。If you look up abiru in a dictionary, you'll see that it's kind of like letting something flow over you (descriptions being to bathe in, to bask in). That's how I see it, at least.
CornBurrito
Member
Wait... wut
But you can use "toru" for taking pictures. But not tests? I can understand baths if I think about it as "the object doesn't ever actually move" but I can't for the life of me figure out why you can "take" a picture but not "take" a test.
What verb would you use for "taking a test" then?
Zoe
Member
取る　http://jisho.org/words?jap=取る&eng=&dict=edict
撮る　http://jisho.org/words?jap=撮る&eng=&dict=edict
They're different Kanji. There's other とる as well but those 2 are the ones we're referring to here I imagine.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
So what about English? In the phrase "I'm going to take a bath," from what or whom are you taking the bath? It's an idiom. Often times that means that each individual word should not be taken literally. You have to look at the whole phrase.
"toru" does not mean "take." "take" does not mean "toru." These are two separate words in two very different languages. Just because they were frequently used to replace one another in translations, does not mean they are equivalent. You gotta stop looking at languages in this way.
You're going to have to get your mind around the fact that "take" is a very rough translation at best for 取る and that it applies to many but not all of the many potential ways to use "take".
Taking a test? 受ける。
Taking a class? 取る。
CornBurrito
Member
It feels like a losing battle to try and learn a language at this age then. I know that "toru" means "toru" and doesn't really translate perfectly to "take" but without living in Japan or growing up hearing Japanese I can't really wrap my mind around the essence of "toru" if that makes sense.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
It..doesn't make any sense lol. Just learn.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You're thinking about it too hard. Just try to understand what it means in any given context without trying to understand ALL of its possible usages at once. The more you're exposed to the language, and the more situations you witness, the more you will understand. When you first learned the English word "take," you probably didn't immediately try to figure out every possible way it could be used. Over the years, you just picked it up. Contextual learning is the best way to approach native level. Otherwise, you'll just be translating words and phrases into your original language and never really get to a point of fluency. It does take some time and a lot of effort, but it will get easier and quicker as time goes on and you gain more experience and have more reference points from which things will start making sense and clicking. Just don't try to understand everything all at once--that's a losing battle.
I've felt exactly how you felt. The only thing you can do is take in one usage at a time. You will find that 入れる and 出す are seemingly used in paradoxical ways when their English translation is applied to them (can you guess which of the two is used to mean "to submit"?). and you will discover that 掛ける and 掛かる have a truly staggering number of uses that have absolutely nothing to do with each other within the context of English; who knew you could hang so many things? 電話を掛ける means exactly the opposite of what you think it does if you were to go only by the literal translations of the words involved.
But there are others, like 通る, which seem to just be a collection of unrelated words but actually have a common abstract meaning that *is* easy to understand in English, and that's rewarding.
Don't get discouraged. I, personally, consider remembering the specific uses of vocabulary to be among the most frustrating parts of learning Japanese.
CornBurrito
Member
I'm saying that Japanese is Japanese. English is English. I can't think in Japanese as a native speaker would because I was not exposed to it when young enough. I can only think in English for the most part. That means I have to turn Japanese words and sentence constructs into approximated English ones. But they won't really capture the true meaning in a lot of cases because the languages are so different. Going off this, the word とります in some contexts roughly approximates to the English word "to take." But it is clear that this approximation doesn't always work. When I try to "think" in Japanese I struggle to see why a native speaker wouldn't simply say "おふろをとります" because I'm actually thinking in English and then trying to approximate English constructs in Japanese. Hopefully that's a little clearer?
And thanks for the words of encouragement Fugu.
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