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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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blurr

Member
Not talking about what you wrote in English. Talking about when you wrote that J sentence, you thought about how to say it in English first, and then, right down to the structure/vocab, you built your J sentence the same way. The very first few words of this sentence proves that.

いつも考えていた

Does not mean what you want it to mean in this context. So before you even get to what you want to ask, this little phrase expresses something totally different than your intention for everything that follows it. Again, most people/native speakers can see your intent and interpret it, which is what communication is, but it's just unnatural. You wanting to express the idea of "I've always wondered" is not done the way it is in English.

I honestly thought the phrase wasn't unnatural in Japanese. If it is, lesson learned. Thanks for correcting.

Which leads to the greater point that J-go can very deceptive the further you stray from basic ideas. In the beginning it seems like, minus a few different word orders, an English thought can be expressed similarly in Japanese. And it's true. But once you really get to something that isn't a bare bones sentence, Japanese smacks you in the face with very specific patterns, idioms, tenses, etc. One of the biggest mistakes is thinking "I need this word for xxx" and then you look up xxx in the E-J dictionary and simply use that word. Sure, sometimes that's right. Inu means dog. You can use inu. But when it comes to verbs especially, you are going down a dangerous path. This is a totally separate topic though.

Yes, I agree, I've had my fair share of experiences in this regard. I do check in the dictionary for new words but I make it a point to confirm with a native speaker/someone who is an expert (oops).

I'm very hands off when I post in this thread which is why you'll never see me outright correct someone. However, others here have posted exactly what I meant when I said from a Japanese perspective this question would be asked totally differently. Hopefully you can use that as a reference going forward.

I'm fairly new here so I honestly had no idea.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Not talking about what you wrote in English. Talking about when you wrote that J sentence, you thought about how to say it in English first, and then, right down to the structure/vocab, you built your J sentence the same way. The very first few words of this sentence proves that.

いつも考えていた

Does not mean what you want it to mean in this context. So before you even get to what you want to ask, this little phrase expresses something totally different than your intention for everything that follows it. Again, most people/native speakers can see your intent and interpret it, which is what communication is, but it's just unnatural. You wanting to express the idea of "I've always wondered" is not done the way it is in English.

Which leads to the greater point that J-go can very deceptive the further you stray from basic ideas. In the beginning it seems like, minus a few different word orders, an English thought can be expressed similarly in Japanese. And it's true. But once you really get to something that isn't a bare bones sentence, Japanese smacks you in the face with very specific patterns, idioms, tenses, etc. One of the biggest mistakes is thinking "I need this word for xxx" and then you look up xxx in the E-J dictionary and simply use that word. Sure, sometimes that's right. Inu means dog. You can use inu. But when it comes to verbs especially, you are going down a dangerous path. This is a totally separate topic though.

I'm very hands off when I post in this thread which is why you'll never see me outright correct someone. However, others here have posted exactly what I meant when I said from a Japanese perspective this question would be asked totally differently. Hopefully you can use that as a reference going forward.

A good example of what I'm an expert means is Japanese dubs of Western movies, I feel. I saw some scenes from Disney's Aladdin in Japanese the other day, and I thought "nope, that doesn't work". Western movies with very compressed plots, simple storylines and straightforward dialogue like this sound weird when translated into Japanese, because that kind of straightforwardness in speech that comes across as natural in English (or French, mind you, since I'm French) just sounds foreign when directly transposed into Japanese. Everything sounds correct, and it is Japanese to be sure, but it doesn't sound like it was actually written by a Japanese person. Neither the language nor the culture lend themselves well to that... I find it's especially true with the songs. The songs just don't work unless you do some heavy and brilliant adaptation work.

I don't have a concrete example of a line that sounds weird off the top of my head right now, but I'll post one later if I find one.
 

Porcile

Member
I have found that even in my early stage of learning there basically isn't any point in trying to translate concepts into Japanese straight from English because 95% of the time I always get them wrong. On the other hand, it helps to do it wrong so that you can get the correction. That said, even on an extremely basic level like where I am, Japanese set phrases and their appropriate English meaning are very clearly different to the literal Japanese.

今日は, はよお早う, すみません etc Those aren't literal translations of Good day, Good morning and excuse me. I'd imagine the origin of those phrases are probably not well known by Japanese people either.

I think realising that Japanese is not English (obviously, but hopefully you understand what I mean) is point where I understood you can't really learn Japanese casually and get good at it or sound natural. You have to be in Japan or be around Japanese speakers all the time since the language and culture are so intertwined, especially when want to use concepts and ideas which aren't direct. It sucks for any self-learner like me to realise this, but there you go.
 
A good example of what I'm an expert means is Japanese dubs of Western movies, I feel. I saw some scenes from Disney's Aladdin in Japanese the other day, and I thought "nope, that doesn't work". Western movies with very compressed plots, simple storylines and straightforward dialogue like this sound weird when translated into Japanese, because that kind of straightforwardness in speech that comes across as natural in English (or French, mind you, since I'm French) just sounds foreign when directly transposed into Japanese. Everything sounds correct, and it is Japanese to be sure, but it doesn't sound like it was actually written by a Japanese person. Neither the language nor the culture lend themselves well to that... I find it's especially true with the songs. The songs just don't work unless you do some heavy and brilliant adaptation work.

I don't have a concrete example of a line that sounds weird off the top of my head right now, but I'll post one later if I find one.

Yeah, I've noticed this as being a problem not just with disney movies, but sometimes with Japanese interpretations of foreign speakers on news broadcasts etc. You really have to do a lot of work to adapt things naturally I think. It makes me sad, especially with disney songs. They either make it fit and cut out all the soul, or try to make it sound more naturally Japanese and it doesn't fit the tune.なんか仕方がないもんねー。
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Yeah, I've noticed this as being a problem not just with disney movies, but sometimes with Japanese interpretations of foreign speakers on news broadcasts etc. You really have to do a lot of work to adapt things naturally I think. It makes me sad, especially with disney songs. They either make it fit and cut out all the soul, or try to make it sound more naturally Japanese and it doesn't fit the tune.なんか仕方がないもんねー。

I'd hate to be a translator/adaptor on those movies. I mean, I like a good translation challenge, but I would probably agonize over every single word of dialogue, as I'm sure they do.
 

Nocebo

Member
Speaking of certain translations feeling unnatural.
How are the articles that are not originally written by Japanese people on http://jp.techcrunch.com/ ?
Are they good translations with natural sentence structure etc.?

I'm going to buckle down and really work on increasing my vocabulary in the next 8 weeks. I'm aiming to learn around 4000 new words, because I want to be able to have some more in depth conversations with some people I'll be meeting around that time. So interesting websites will also help with that.
Does anyone know any good original Japanese websites about technology/gadgets and stuff like that?
 

RangerBAD

Member
I'm looking for a kanji book on Amazon.com. I sort of want to get what SporkWithin recommended, but I can't get it through the US store. 1006 kanji for Elementary School. Something sold through Amazon instead of a seller.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
A good example of what I'm an expert means is Japanese dubs of Western movies, I feel. I saw some scenes from Disney's Aladdin in Japanese the other day, and I thought "nope, that doesn't work". Western movies with very compressed plots, simple storylines and straightforward dialogue like this sound weird when translated into Japanese, because that kind of straightforwardness in speech that comes across as natural in English (or French, mind you, since I'm French) just sounds foreign when directly transposed into Japanese. Everything sounds correct, and it is Japanese to be sure, but it doesn't sound like it was actually written by a Japanese person. Neither the language nor the culture lend themselves well to that... I find it's especially true with the songs. The songs just don't work unless you do some heavy and brilliant adaptation work.

I don't have a concrete example of a line that sounds weird off the top of my head right now, but I'll post one later if I find one.

Ehh... it's fine for the most part. Japanese viewers take it all with the context that it is a foreign film. As you say, it's all correct Japanese, just not the typical back and forth you might see in a native Japanese setting. That's perfectly, fine, though.

Speaking of certain translations feeling unnatural.
How are the articles that are not originally written by Japanese people on http://jp.techcrunch.com/ ?
Are they good translations with natural sentence structure etc.?

I'm going to buckle down and really work on increasing my vocabulary in the next 8 weeks. I'm aiming to learn around 4000 new words, because I want to be able to have some more in depth conversations with some people I'll be meeting around that time. So interesting websites will also help with that.
Does anyone know any good original Japanese websites about technology/gadgets and stuff like that?

Translated articles are generally fine. Sure, you can often tell that they weren't originally written in Japanese, but it's not going to impede anyone's comprehension. The local versions of magazines like Newsweek consist mostly of translated articles, but they are still read relatively widely by native Japanese folk.

I think I'll find true happiness when I reach salaryman lifestyle. Crush my soul pls Japan, show me what you got.

Just make sure you find a company in an industry that interests you. If you're passionate about the work, then devoting yourself to it won't be so bad (until you decide you want to settle down and have kids or something), but if you couldn't care less about the work, then you're going to be miserable every day and your output will probably suffer to boot.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
I'm completely with you there Kilrogg ><



OMG just looked it up.

it's &#12473;&#12509;&#12531;&#12472;&#12508;&#12502; &#12474;&#12508;&#12531;&#12399;&#22235;&#35282;.


hahahhahahahaha.

Now I'm empathizing with the singer. He probably went "how can I fit so many syllables in there?".

Ehh... it's fine for the most part. Japanese viewers take it all with the context that it is a foreign film. As you say, it's all correct Japanese, just not the typical back and forth you might see in a native Japanese setting. That's perfectly, fine, though.

I haven't watched enough of those to truly be able tell, and I trust your judgment more than mine. You know the language and culture much more than I do. Maybe I'm confusing my impression of the songs specifically (which really sound weird to me, don't know about you) with the rest of the lines.
 

RangerBAD

Member
I think I'll find true happiness when I reach salaryman lifestyle. Crush my soul pls Japan, show me what you got.

Just don't work for a bank. Not my experience, but an acquaintance of mine pretty much hated how bad the culture was and how people couldn't really think for themselves. Maybe banks in Japan really are like the Koukenryoku Ouryoku Sousakan Nakabou Rintarou manga.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I haven't watched enough of those to truly be able tell, and I trust your judgment more than mine. You know the language and culture much more than I do. Maybe I'm confusing my impression of the songs specifically (which really sound weird to me, don't know about you) with the rest of the lines.

I don't doubt that there are some bad translation jobs out there. At the same time, you have stuff like Frozen, which was just massive in Japan almost entirely thanks to the Let it Go song and its localized version.
 

Zoe

Member
If I need to write an email to an organization (trying to update my address), what's the best way to start the email? I know the standard ways to open a written letter or business correspondence, but those don't quite feel right.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
I don't doubt that there are some bad translation jobs out there. At the same time, you have stuff like Frozen, which was just massive in Japan almost entirely thanks to the Let it Go song and its localized version.

From what I remember of that song, it actually works well in Japanese I think.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
Alright, I just finished reading my first book to learn the basics of Japanese but I wasn't paying that much attention to Kanjis so I'll give it another go now this time making sure to memorize all the Kanjis I can. I feel this language is more abstract and more about context than the way how Spanish and English work.

I always come here to get a glimpse but what you guys are writing is way too complex for me haha, there is going to be a Con this week here in my city and I hope I can find a good academy to learn Japanese, there were some a few years ago but I never paid attention to them : | they were even giving away some months for free on a karaoke event.
 

Gacha-pin

Member
If I need to write an email to an organization (trying to update my address), what's the best way to start the email? I know the standard ways to open a written letter or business correspondence, but those don't quite feel right.
Neogaf&#12288;&#12288;<--&#36865;&#12426;&#20808;&#12398;&#32068;&#32340;&#21517;
&#26032;&#12288;&#25105;&#24220;&#12288;&#27096;&#12288;&#12288;<--&#25285;&#24403;&#32773;&#21517;

&#12362;&#19990;&#35441;&#12395;&#12394;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;Neogaf&#12513;&#12531;&#12496;&#12540;&#12398;&#12478;&#12454;&#12452;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;

&#19979;&#35352;&#12398;&#36890;&#12426;&#20303;&#25152;&#12364;&#22793;&#26356;&#12395;&#12394;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12383;&#12290;&#30331;&#37682;&#12398;&#22793;&#26356;&#12434;&#12362;&#39000;&#12356;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290;

&#26032;&#12375;&#12356;&#20303;&#25152;

&#21476;&#12356;&#20303;&#25152;


&#12478;&#12454;&#12452;

&#25285;&#24403;&#32773;&#12398;&#21517;&#21069;&#12434;&#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12369;&#12428;&#12400;&#12289;&#25285;&#24403;&#32773;&#21517;&#12398;&#37096;&#20998;&#12399;&#12300;&#12372;&#25285;&#24403;&#32773;&#27096;&#12301;&#12395;&#32622;&#12365;&#25563;&#12360;&#12427;&#12290;
&#12391;&#12418;&#36865;&#12426;&#20808;&#12392;&#36865;&#12426;&#20808;&#12395;&#23550;&#12377;&#12427;zoe&#33258;&#36523;&#12398;&#31435;&#22580;&#12395;&#12424;&#12387;&#12390;&#12399;&#26368;&#21021;&#12398;3&#34892;&#12399;&#30465;&#12356;&#12390;&#12300;&#19979;&#35352;&#12398;&#36890;&#12426;&#65374;&#12301;&#12363;&#12425;&#22987;&#12417;&#12390;&#12418;&#12356;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12358;&#12290;
&#20363;&#12360;&#12400;&#21942;&#21033;&#32068;&#32340;&#12395;&#23458;&#12392;&#12375;&#12390;&#36865;&#12427;&#22580;&#21512;&#12420;&#24441;&#25152;&#38306;&#20418;&#12392;&#12363;&#12290;
 

urfe

Member
I don't doubt that there are some bad translation jobs out there. At the same time, you have stuff like Frozen, which was just massive in Japan almost entirely thanks to the Let it Go song and its localized version.

I think Disney songs and movies in general are done amazingly. Japanese friends who perhaps like western culture a little too much criticized the Japanese version for not having a "just be yourself" message enough.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I think Disney songs and movies in general are done amazingly. Japanese friends who perhaps like western culture a little too much criticized the Japanese version for not having a "just be yourself" message enough.

What an odd thing to say. If anything, that message comes across much more directly in the Japanese version.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
Now this is my actual first try to write a sentence in Japanese on my own >_<

&#23478;&#12391;&#31169;&#12399;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12434;&#21193;&#24375;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12289;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12399;&#12416;&#12378;&#12363;&#12375;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;

And I don't really understand the difference between &#12392; and &#12418; while using them as "and" or "with".
 

Jintor

Member
Now this is my actual first try to write a sentence in Japanese on my own >_<

&#23478;&#12391;&#31169;&#12399;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12434;&#21193;&#24375;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12289;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12399;&#12416;&#12378;&#12363;&#12375;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;

And I don't really understand the difference between &#12392; and &#12418; while using them as "and" or "with".

&#12381;&#12358;&#12384;&#12397;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#31169;&#12418;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12399;&#12392;&#12390;&#12418;&#38627;&#12375;&#12356;&#12384;&#12290;

In usage they're kind of similar, but &#12418; is closer to "also" than "and/with".

&#31169;&#12418; = Me, also.
&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12418; = You also.

&#31169;&#12392; = Me and... / With me.
&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12392; = You and... / With you.
 
Now this is my actual first try to write a sentence in Japanese on my own >_<

&#23478;&#12391;&#31169;&#12399;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12434;&#21193;&#24375;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12289;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12399;&#12416;&#12378;&#12363;&#12375;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;

And I don't really understand the difference between &#12392; and &#12418; while using them as "and" or "with".

Just a note, there's an &#12356; missing from your &#38627;&#12375;&#12356;(&#12416;&#12378;&#12363;&#12375;&#12356;)&#12290;
 

KanameYuuki

Member
&#12381;&#12358;&#12384;&#12397;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#31169;&#12418;&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12399;&#12392;&#12390;&#12418;&#38627;&#12375;&#12356;&#12384;&#12290;

In usage they're kind of similar, but &#12418; is closer to "also" than "and/with".

&#31169;&#12418; = Me, also.
&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12418; = You also.

&#31169;&#12392; = Me and... / With me.
&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12392; = You and... / With you.

Perfect, thanks for the explanation and you even added a bonus new Kanji!

Just a note, there's an &#12356; missing from your &#38627;&#12375;&#12356;(&#12416;&#12378;&#12363;&#12375;&#12356;)&#12290;

Oh x.x right I got confuse if I had to remove it or not, I better take a good look into &#12316;&#12356; and ~&#12394; adjectives again.
 

Jintor

Member
man i just can't study today... got through my flashcards and read a bit of nhk easy and crashed. sorry brain, can't do it
 
man i just can't study today... got through my flashcards and read a bit of nhk easy and crashed. sorry brain, can't do it

&#12381;&#12428;&#12394;&#12425;&#12422;&#12387;&#12367;&#12426;&#20241;&#12435;&#12384;&#12411;&#12358;&#12364;&#12356;&#12356;&#12392;&#24605;&#12358;&#12290;
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
they probably could've come up with a pun with &#12473;&#12509;&#12531;&#12472;and&#12474;&#12508;&#12531;&#12290;

That's... brilliant, actually. Certainly much better than what they came up with. &#12474;&#12508;&#12531;&#12472;
 

urfe

Member
What an odd thing to say. If anything, that message comes across much more directly in the Japanese version.

I don't know the lyrics of either, so I won't defend what I heard. Just thought it was interesting.

---

In my weekly business Japanese class, my teacher always says I have a Tohoku accent. That and fucking up intonation all the time is rough. Will try to review more this week.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
I don't know the lyrics of either, so I won't defend what I heard. Just thought it was interesting.

"Let it go! Let it go! etc." becomes &#12354;&#12426;&#12398;&#12414;&#12414;&#12398;&#23039;&#65288;&#12377;&#12364;&#12383;&#65289;&#12434;&#35211;&#12379;&#12427;&#12398;&#12424;, which means "I'll show myself as I am/I'll show them my true self", so yeah, it's pretty close :).
 
I just bought Basic Kanji Book vol. 1, and I have a question before starting in earnest: how does one know which pronunciation to use when reading a word? The first Kanji, sun/day (&#26085;) can be pronounced in the following ways:

&#12491;&#12481;&#12539;&#12472;&#12484;

and

&#12402;&#12289;&#12363;

Furthermore, what's the deal with having two different pronunciation categories?
 

Jintor

Member
re: same kanji different pronounciation... you just gotta brute force learn it

there is one thing that can help, usually a kanji that is a word by itself is pronounced differently than if it's part of a compound word.

but not always

so... that's not actually that helpful.

The pronounciation catagories, kunyoumi and onyoumi, are basically the Chinese/Japanese readings of the kanji and usually relate to how you read the word by itself or as part of a compound, as above.
 
re: same kanji different pronounciation... you just gotta brute force learn it

there is one thing that can help, usually a kanji that is a word by itself is pronounced differently than if it's part of a compound word.

but not always

so... that's not actually that helpful.

The pronounciation catagories, kunyoumi and onyoumi, are basically the Chinese/Japanese readings of the kanji and usually relate to how you read the word by itself or as part of a compound, as above.

That is actually helpful in a roundabout way; I now know that I'm not wasting my time learning every pronunciation.

Which of the two categories can be read by itself--for instance, what are the actual words for "sun" and "day"?
 

Jintor

Member
&#12363; and &#12402;

Note that the most common kanji also generally have the most different types of readings. I find it easier to learn the vocab first, but it's different for everyone.
 
That is actually helpful in a roundabout way; I now know that I'm not wasting my time learning every pronunciation.

You are, actually, and the second half of that post shows why. (EDIT to add: I don't want to sound hostile or judgmental here. Just speaking from my own experience and trying to share insight to save you some headache)

As someone growing up learning English (or French, Spanish, German, etc.) we are used to being able to look at a series of characters on a page and have a pretty good guess at how they are pronounced. There might be some room for doubt (moreso in English than the other languages), but especially as an adult who has been reading for a long time, we can be pretty confident.

The meaning, meanwhile, might be unknown to us. Particularly for young readers, there are tons and tons of words that they can sound out, but don't know the meaning of. We are taught in Elementary school to "try to sound it out, and guess the meaning from context."

Japanese is completely different, in both regards.

When learning Japanese you must learn to accept and embrace the fact that you simply will not be able to guess the pronunciation of many words with any confidence the first time you come across them. Even if it's a super common kanji that you know deep in your heart, you might find out after the fact that this is the only word in the entire written language that uses some obscure reading. This is why literally everything intended to be read by anyone under the age of twelve has pronunciation guides slathered all over it in the form of furigana.

The flipside of this is that while you may not be able to pronounce it, the kanji themselves can sometimes (but absolutely not always) give you a fairly good guess at what the word means, even if you don't know how it sounds. I often find myself in situations where I don't know how a word is pronounced, but I understand the sentence perfectly clearly in spite of this fact. I usually look up the pronunciation of the words in these cases, but sometimes I'll just go with my best guess (which turns out to be wrong at least a third of the time).

Especially at the outset of your studies it is extremely important to build up your kanji knowledge on top of vocabulary that you already know. Later on it can be extremely beneficial to learn kanji along with sets of words that use that kanji. But it's basically never going to be useful to simply go through the kanji and attach them to a sound or two and a one-word English definition without knowing at least a handful of Japanese words that use it.
 

blurr

Member
Especially at the outset of your studies it is extremely important to build up your kanji knowledge on top of vocabulary that you already know. Later on it can be extremely beneficial to learn kanji along with sets of words that use that kanji. But it's basically never going to be useful to simply go through the kanji and attach them to a sound or two and a one-word English definition without knowing at least a handful of Japanese words that use it.

Totally agree with this, can confirm that this is a very efficient way to remember new Kanji.
 
Useful Stuff

Fair enough! In that case, how do you recommend I tackle memorization? How do I make this book useful to me if I'm going to be choosy about which pronunciations I do memorize? Or are you suggesting that I just know what the Kanji mean and go from there?

Thank you, by the way!

edit: it sounds like I should be learning a word or two along with the Kanji? To take &#26085;, as an example, would it be more useful to just remember "Sunday" and "Japan" before moving on?
 
Fair enough! In that case, how do you recommend I tackle memorization? How do I make this book useful to me if I'm going to be choosy about which pronunciations I do memorize? Or are you suggesting that I just know what the Kanji mean and go from there?

Thank you, by the way!

edit: it sounds like I should be learning a word or two along with the Kanji? To take &#26085;, as an example, would it be more useful to just remember "Sunday" and "Japan" before moving on?

I'd suggest learning them in the order they're introduced in Genki, since that's what you're using as a textbook (I think). There's a section in the back of the book with "writing" exercizes. Basically, you should start with the numbers and the ones used in the days of the week, and just learn to read them in those contexts with the words given to you by Genki. By the end of Genki 1 you'll have around 100 common kanji under your belt and know a handful of words for each. By the end of Genki 2 it's close to 300, I think. It's slow going, depending on your pace through the book, but you don't have the vocabulary base to learn more.

If you really want to throw yourself into it (which I wouldn't recommend until you've got a decent grasp of grammar and a , at least finished with Genki 1) then you're going to want to gather a set of words to learn for each new kanji which use the most common readings. So for &#26085; you'd have &#26085;&#65288;&#12402;&#65289;&#12289;&#12316;&#26085;&#65288;&#12316;&#12395;&#12385;&#65289;[used as a suffix]&#12289;&#20170;&#26085;&#65288;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358;&#65289;[irregular reading]&#12289;&#26152;&#26085;&#65288;&#12365;&#12398;&#12358;&#65289;[irregular reading]&#12289;&#26085;&#26332;&#26085;&#65288;&#12395;&#12385;&#12424;&#12358;&#12403;&#65289;&#12289;&#26085;&#26412;&#65288;&#12395;&#12411;&#12435;&#65289;&#12289; and maybe throw in &#26085;&#35352;&#65288;&#12395;&#12387;&#12365;&#65289;or &#26085;&#31243;&#65288;&#12395;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#65289; for some variety.

Since &#20170; came up and it's a common one too, let's make a set for that. &#20170;&#65288;&#12356;&#12414;&#65289;&#12289;&#20170;&#26085;&#65288;&#12365;&#12423;&#12358;&#65289;&#12289;&#20170;&#24180;&#65288;&#12371;&#12392;&#12375;&#65289;&#12289;&#20170;&#26376;&#65288;&#12371;&#12435;&#12370;&#12388;&#65289;&#12289;&#20170;&#26217;&#65288;&#12371;&#12435;&#12400;&#12435;&#65289;&#12289;&#20170;&#26397;&#65288;&#12369;&#12373;&#65289;and &#20170;&#24230;&#65288;&#12371;&#12435;&#12393;&#65289;.

Just keep making sets like these in whatever flash-card program or method you use (accepting the fact that some new kanji will be introduced most of the times you make such a set) and keep branching out.

The problem here, though, is that you're just learning words out of context and won't have a clear idea of how to use them. Plus, it's all abstracted, so the words will be slippery and tough to retain. This is how I was studying a few years back. I had an intense period of working three jobs and didn't study for a few months and lost quite a lot of it.

It's far better to build up your grammar and vocabulary base through the use of textbooks and learner-oriented reading materials (graded readers, reading assignments from textbooks and instructional websites) until you can start pushing into native material on your own. At that point you'll have enough of a language base to start making the words stick as you learn them, and as a result learning kanji will be a great deal easier.
 

Porcile

Member
That kanji only means "Sunday" and "Japan" when combined with other kanji though. On it's own it means "day" or "sun" but not the physical sun which is a different kanji compound (taiyou?) In this case its more the concept of sun, which is why learning just the basic English reading in its own is almost totally pointless.

I think you are best off learning the most common onyomi and kunyomi readings along with the basic English readings, and then learning the exceptions and other readings. Reading compound kanji becomes way easier when you begin to learn more onyomi and kunyomi readings, and also when you figure out the basic pattern being used (barring exceptions).

Or, just sign up to Wanikani and let that do the work for you.
 
Or, just sign up to Wanikani and let that do the work for you.

This is probably the best answer, actually. I keep forgetting about this because I didn't use it, but my wife does and quite likes it. It's not going to fast-track you to literacy but it's a good way to make steady progress without having to worry about setting the pace yourself.
 

Nocebo

Member
edit: it sounds like I should be learning a word or two along with the Kanji? To take &#26085;, as an example, would it be more useful to just remember "Sunday" and "Japan" before moving on?
I agree with Porcile. It would be better to remember it as "sun" and "day". Because Japan is called land of the rising sun. And they have a sun on their flag, right?&#12288;When the sun is out we also call that "day". I think it is good to understand things on a more conceptual level as well. For me it makes learning kanji easier. For example there is &#26126;&#12427;&#12356; which can mean "bright" it has the kanji &#26085; and &#26376; in there.
 

Jintor

Member
the important thing is to pick a method and stick with it. Doing multiple methods at once is a good way to eventually get overwhelmed and give up on all of them, or something.

If you stick with a SRS (spaced repetition system) in some capacity, it'll pay off.

I personally dropped wanikani cos i was all in on heisig. Not sure if it was the best idea but I'm moving along now...
 

RangerBAD

Member
You are, actually, and the second half of that post shows why. (EDIT to add: I don't want to sound hostile or judgmental here. Just speaking from my own experience and trying to share insight to save you some headache)

As someone growing up learning English (or French, Spanish, German, etc.) we are used to being able to look at a series of characters on a page and have a pretty good guess at how they are pronounced. There might be some room for doubt (moreso in English than the other languages), but especially as an adult who has been reading for a long time, we can be pretty confident.

The meaning, meanwhile, might be unknown to us. Particularly for young readers, there are tons and tons of words that they can sound out, but don't know the meaning of. We are taught in Elementary school to "try to sound it out, and guess the meaning from context."

Japanese is completely different, in both regards.

When learning Japanese you must learn to accept and embrace the fact that you simply will not be able to guess the pronunciation of many words with any confidence the first time you come across them. Even if it's a super common kanji that you know deep in your heart, you might find out after the fact that this is the only word in the entire written language that uses some obscure reading. This is why literally everything intended to be read by anyone under the age of twelve has pronunciation guides slathered all over it in the form of furigana.

The flipside of this is that while you may not be able to pronounce it, the kanji themselves can sometimes (but absolutely not always) give you a fairly good guess at what the word means, even if you don't know how it sounds. I often find myself in situations where I don't know how a word is pronounced, but I understand the sentence perfectly clearly in spite of this fact. I usually look up the pronunciation of the words in these cases, but sometimes I'll just go with my best guess (which turns out to be wrong at least a third of the time).

Especially at the outset of your studies it is extremely important to build up your kanji knowledge on top of vocabulary that you already know. Later on it can be extremely beneficial to learn kanji along with sets of words that use that kanji. But it's basically never going to be useful to simply go through the kanji and attach them to a sound or two and a one-word English definition without knowing at least a handful of Japanese words that use it.

I feel like I need to really learn more words rather than kanji at the moment. I need to figure out a way to do that. I probably know like 100+ kanji out of the 300 after finishing Genki.
 

Resilient

Member
I'm gonna sound like a dick, but (this is my opinion) you potentially fuck yourself over if you just study Kanji moderately/aggressively in your early days.

To start, you still don't know the basic grammar patterns, and how sentences are properly formed.

Then, you haven't got a very broad vocabulary, so you're constantly trying to learn words and remember them so you are actually learning the language and not the alphabet.

On top of that, you're trying to memorise stroke orders, and how to write each Kanji, which is likely before you have formed your own writing style with Katakana and Hiragana. How quickly can you write McDonalds, Australia, Internet, Basketball and Soccer with their correct spelling? You're likely to struggle but you might do well. Who knows.

Of those three things, your learning will benefit greatly. For a few reasons.

1. Learning grammar allows you to formulate sentences. Confidence builder because you're applying what you've learnt.
2. Learning vocab lets you further articulate yourself. Again, it's a confidence boost.
3. Handwriting is a great way to retain what you learn. As you become more fluent your writing should follow. Eventually sentence writing will become very easy.

With all those simple things to learn and build momentum, why would you spend time trying to memorise how to pronounce &#26085;? That is just time better spent learning shit that matters.

All of that doesn't even take into account the fact that if you know 300 Kanji, it's not going to necessarily help your speaking skills - which is the entire reason we are all learning the language, right?

Edit: these are just things I wish somebody told me before I wasted 3 months on Heisig. It was 10 weeks of wasted progress. The only good 2 weeks were learning the importance of stroke order.
 
I feel like I need to really learn more words rather than kanji at the moment. I need to figure out a way to do that. I probably know like 100+ kanji out of the 300 after finishing Genki.

Read stuff with furigana. &#12424;&#12388;&#12400;&#65286;&#65281; is a very approachable manga. Books of fairytales are readily available, I'd suggest getting one with stories from around the world so that you already know the gist. Whenever you find new words that seem useful, write them down and put them in Anki or whatever.

If you're finished Genki 2 you have the grammar base to start reading children's material. Your vocabulary will be severely lacking, but it'll grow quickly if you keep at it.

EDIT to add:

I personally found a lot of benefit in having a Japanese 3DS. Games like Animal Crossing and Yokai Watch are excellent for reading practice.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Read stuff with furigana. &#12424;&#12388;&#12400;&#65286;&#65281; is a very approachable manga. Books of fairytales are readily available, I'd suggest getting one with stories from around the world so that you already know the gist. Whenever you find new words that seem useful, write them down and put them in Anki or whatever.

If you're finished Genki 2 you have the grammar base to start reading children's material. Your vocabulary will be severely lacking, but it'll grow quickly if you keep at it.

EDIT to add:

I personally found a lot of benefit in having a Japanese 3DS. Games like Animal Crossing and Yokai Watch are excellent for reading practice.

I was surprised to see Dragon Quest Builders wasn't using furigana like most DQ games. I thought about importing that in a few months, but now I don't know. A lot of the words are in kana though.
 

Resilient

Member
I was surprised to see Dragon Quest Builders wasn't using furigana like most DQ games. I thought about importing that in a few months, but now I don't know. A lot of the words are in kana though.

You'll most likely play it with a &#36766;&#26360; and then put it down cause you spend more time in your &#36766;&#26360; than in your &#12466;&#12540;&#12512;&#12290;it's a slow way to learn when you don't know many Kanji because 90% of Kanji will Be meaningless to you.

Menus are good because they're recurring words but general dialogue...you're in for a bad time.

If you just want to play the games though, that's perfectly doable

Source: my experience
 
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