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[tnw]

I meant the "..." to represent a "trailing off" sound which would weaken the "yo". If you say "よっ" or something, that would definitely come off too strong.

By Hifu do you mean "皮膚" like in "皮膚科" (department of dermatology)? I definitely think you should use the Kanji for that. Kabi, on the other hand, probably not...

look around next time you're here. Most signs for hifu have the fu part in katakana. My taiwanese friend that it was bizarre and hilarious, but it's true.

 

[takotchi]

Well, if something like 喋る stands out to you, you should see this old Japanese textbook I have. :lol It was published in 1936 I believe, so you have weird stuff like ～様になる、其の、何処 plus it uses 旧字体 kanji so 読む is 讀む etc., AND this was before the spelling reforms, so 會ふ and 違ひない and stuff like that is in it. Oh, and 当て字 like 沢山 and sometimes katakana for okurigana. Overall, I think it's pretty interesting to flip through it and see how things used to be.

 

[bigmit3737]

「頑張れ！次の町までまだまだあるぞ！」

Because I don't know really know the context, it is hard to determine exactly what is being implied by "頑張れ", but here is a rough translation based on what we have:

"Don't give up now! We still have a ways to go until the next town."

OK. A character complained about not being able to walk anymore.

Thanks for your help.

 

[tnw]

Well, if something like 喋る stands out to you, you should see this old Japanese textbook I have. :lol It was published in 1936 I believe, so you have weird stuff like ～様になる、其の、何処 plus it uses 旧字体 kanji so 読む is 讀む etc., AND this was before the spelling reforms, so 會ふ and 違ひない and stuff like that is in it. Oh, and 当て字 like 沢山 and sometimes katakana for okurigana. Overall, I think it's pretty interesting to flip through it and see how things used to be.

naw, people still write the kanji for takusan, and use the kanji for 'you ni naru'. Sometimes you'll see the kanji for doko. they sometimes use the kanji for 'made'.

one of things that weirded me out the most was when I saw the kanji for gochisou. I mean, I had never seen it before, but now I see it every once and awhile.

but yeah, pre war kanji are kind of crazy. My grandfather was in Japan during the US occupation, and when I was visiting him last time, he showed me his old air force jacket. inside one of the pockets was this white handkerchief all written in pre-joyo kanji basically saying that he is an occupation force soldier and that people should do what he says, not kill him, etc.. It was so hard to understand! :lol

 

[takotchi]

Actually, you're right, I have seen the "you" kanji... when I bought Biohazard 2 from the PSN, I thought it seemed kind of kanji-heavy. Stuff like 何も無い and ひどい有り様だ. I've never seen 迄 outside that pre-war textbook of mine... if I recall correctly, you can't use it for every sense of the word. Not sure...

I swear my current college textbook seems to have something against words with special readings. Stuff like 明日 and 昨日 are always written in hiragana.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

look around next time you're here. Most signs for hifu have the fu part in katakana. My taiwanese friend that it was bizarre and hilarious, but it's true.

Perhaps in your experience that is true, but more often than not I see 皮膚科 compared to 皮フ科. I am pretty certain that 皮膚 is much more common. For example, if you were to go inside of a hospital, it would almost certainly use the Kanji. In printed books and publications it will also usually be written as 皮膚. I know you don't like to use Google searches for evidence, but 皮膚科 has 14,500,000 hits compared to 皮フ科's 492,000 (皮膚 alone at 1,230,000 and 皮フ at 571,000).

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Actually, you're right, I have seen the "you" kanji... when I bought Biohazard 2 from the PSN, I thought it seemed kind of kanji-heavy. Stuff like 何も無い and ひどい有り様だ. I've never seen 迄 outside that pre-war textbook of mine... if I recall correctly, you can't use it for every sense of the word. Not sure...

I swear my current college textbook seems to have something against words with special readings. Stuff like 明日 and 昨日 are always written in hiragana.

迄 is actually fairly common when it is referring to dates and times. For example you will see １０時迄 or １０日迄 fairly often. The Hiragana is of course more common, however.

 

[takotchi]

迄 is actually fairly common when it is referring to dates and times. For example you will see １０時迄 or １０日迄 fairly often. The Hiragana is of course more common, however.

Interesting. But, you can't write something like 東京迄行った... or can you?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well, if something like 喋る stands out to you, you should see this old Japanese textbook I have. :lol It was published in 1936 I believe, so you have weird stuff like ～様になる、其の、何処 plus it uses 旧字体 kanji so 読む is 讀む etc., AND this was before the spelling reforms, so 會ふ and 違ひない and stuff like that is in it. Oh, and 当て字 like 沢山 and sometimes katakana for okurigana. Overall, I think it's pretty interesting to flip through it and see how things used to be.

When I was taking undergraduate law courses at Sophia University (Jochi Daigaku) a lot of the old judicial precedents (not to mention the pre-War constitution) we had to study were from before the War, and it would use 旧字体 and all of the Okurigana would be in Katakana. I got used to it after a while and it really helped improved my recognition skills of Kanji that are considered difficult today.

On that note, there are tons of regularly used Kanji that are not part of the current 常用漢字. For example, 誰 嬉 亀 叶 嵐 栗 梨 熊 瞳 虎 虹 鹿 謎 噂 飴 嘘 and tons others are used all the time but are not part of 常用漢字. I really think the 常用漢字 should be increased to around 2,500 - 3,000 or so.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Interesting. But, you can't write something like 東京迄行った... or can you?

No you certainly can! I was just saying that in my experience I see it used more commonly when talking about times and dates. It's not like it can only be used in that sense.

 

[takotchi]

No you certainly can! I was just saying that in my experience I see it used more commonly when talking about times and dates. It's not like it can only be used in that sense.

Oh, I understand; I just could have sworn I saw something about only using the kanji version in one sense. Either it was wrong or I must be thinking of something else. Anyway, that's good to know, thanks.

 

[tnw]

Actually, you're right, I have seen the "you" kanji... when I bought Biohazard 2 from the PSN, I thought it seemed kind of kanji-heavy. Stuff like 何も無い and ひどい有り様だ. I've never seen 迄 outside that pre-war textbook of mine... if I recall correctly, you can't use it for every sense of the word. Not sure...

I swear my current college textbook seems to have something against words with special readings. Stuff like 明日 and 昨日 are always written in hiragana.

You can see 'made' in fliers all the time. 'sale wa 18 nichi made!'. I actually had to ask my supervisor when I was a CIR.

I find that the made kanji is used at the end of things, not really used as much in scentences, but then what do I know?

Funny, a lot of those kanji you listed as not joyo where on my kanji list for the 1 kyuu jlpt. Uwasa I clearly remember being on there. hmm.

 

[sasimirobot]

dont be scared of "yo".

its not rude

 

[winston_pr]

I know it probably has been settled 17 pages before - but I deserves to be repeated: The Heisig books work. It is was helped me build a framework in my mind to memorize the 2500+ characters I can read today. I am pretty poor at writing Kanji by hand, but luckily I seldom need to, since computers or cellphones are the main mean of typing anyways.

Heisig ftw.

 

[winston_pr]

I don't know why I never did like the way "boku" fit for me..

whenever I am in a situation to use watakushi I forget.. :lol :lol

My colleague (a 40 y-o Japanese guy) keeps using "Washi". Makes him seem like 60-70 y-o ossan. I should tell him some day

 

[Link1110]

My colleague (a 40 y-o Japanese guy) keeps using "Washi". Makes him seem like 60-70 y-o ossan. I should tell him some day

Speaking of these kinds of thuings, i think playing Tokimeki memorioal as one of my first imports is coming back to haunt me. In Persona 3, with everyone using the word Senpai, it keeps sounding like "onii-chan," because the only other place I've ever hears it is from the loli character in Tokimeki Memorial.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I know it probably has been settled 17 pages before - but I deserves to be repeated: The Heisig books work. It is was helped me build a framework in my mind to memorize the 2500+ characters I can read today. I am pretty poor at writing Kanji by hand, but luckily I seldom need to, since computers or cellphones are the main mean of typing anyways.

Heisig ftw.

What? I thought the whole point of Heisig was so that you would never forget how to write a Kanji.

You can easily learn how to read and recognize Kanji just by doing the standard method of learning the reading and writing at the same time in context. I thought the whole point of using the "Heisig method" was so that you could write all of those Kanji.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

My colleague (a 40 y-o Japanese guy) keeps using "Washi". Makes him seem like 60-70 y-o ossan. I should tell him some day

As long as he isn't saying it in some old man-voice then it shouldn't be a problem. There are plenty of people who use "washi", though I would expect to find them mostly west of Nagoya.

 

[Dabookerman]

Novice here, at uni I am studying Japanese intermediate level 2.

So basically, I don't know that much still, never was taught Kanji.

So I have this speaking exam on wednesday and I have to talk about generic shit like weather, uni or food, one of these topics will be chosen and I converse with the teacher.

So I will just post up my very basic paragraph about the weather and would appriciate it if someone corrected my many many grammar mistakes that I tend to make. Cheers.

ロンドンでてんきがよくわるいです。
ふゆにロンドンはあつくないですからすきです。
でも、たくさんかぜがつよいですからすきじゃないです。
そしてときどきゆきがふります。
すきなゆきのあしあとをつくりますよ。
なつにロンドンはとてもあついですからとしのなかでわるいにおいです。
はははポランドにすんでいました。
それからポランドでなつにとてもむしあついですよ。
でも、ふゆはとてもさむいです。

Boring convo I know.

 

[RevenantKioku]

What? I thought the whole point of Heisig was so that you would never forget how to write a Kanji.

You can easily learn how to read and recognize Kanji just by doing the standard method of learning the reading and writing at the same time in context. I thought the whole point of using the "Heisig method" was so that you could write all of those Kanji.

My previous five years of studying would personally like to disagree with that.

I personally got a more intimate feeling for the kanji that I studied under Heisig's method and it even 'fixed' some confusion that had leaked in from my earlier studies. 持／待 was a big one in my earlier years. Silly, yes but it happened. And I always fucked up the top of 達 when writing it. But those problems are since gone. I'm bad at explaining it, but they feel more 'natural' to me now. It's weird.

Some people may be able to get the most out of studying both at the same time. I applaud you because it didn't work for me. I know a lot of people in this thread studied in many different ways and seem almost offended that other people are studying a different way but that's life, it seems.

Oh, and on the whole use the kanji/don't use the kanji here's a conversation I had with a teacher the other day.
"Wow, I've never used that word in kanji before. Why are you studying it?"
"Well, if you see it, you know what it means, right?"
"Yeah."
"So that's why I'm studying it."

It's good to learn what is common and what is uncommon. But that too comes with time. You may never use 喋る in kanji form but I've seen it a few times and knowing that is just one more thing.

 

[tnw]

hey I learned a random fact watching television last night!

The show was called riyu wa aru taro

Anyway, apparently when japanese women don't want to have sex, they don't say no. Instead they say 'furu'

The reason they say 'furu' is because back in the day when maiko/geisha were entertaining, and the man wanted to have sex, it would be rude to say no. Instead they would turn, or furu, their heads away from the man to tell them they didn't want to.

kind of interesting that they still do it

 

[RevenantKioku]

At first I thought furu as in 降る and got a little frightened. But then I checked and saw that there was 振る as well and I feel better.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Hitokage, this thread is about learning kanji only.....

anyways.

After doing some research on neogaf and elsewhere I found some recommended books and software.

Most notably:
-free websites websites found in threads.
-Heisig's Remebering the Kanji.
-Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar
-Genki 1: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese 1
-Pimsleur
-Rosetta Stone
-could probably look up Japanese books required for Japanese classes and buy them from college bookstores.

What combination would be best to be well fluent in grammar, writing, speech, and reading? In a college course it's all done at once.

so far i think roesetta or pimsleur for speaking. and OP for learning kanji.

 

[Zoe]

Hitokage, this thread is about learning kanji only.....

Nah, skim through this thread, we've covered lots of things.

 

[Hitokage]

My previous five years of studying would personally like to disagree with that.

I personally got a more intimate feeling for the kanji that I studied under Heisig's method and it even 'fixed' some confusion that had leaked in from my earlier studies. 持／待 was a big one in my earlier years. Silly, yes but it happened. And I always fucked up the top of 達 when writing it. But those problems are since gone. I'm bad at explaining it, but they feel more 'natural' to me now. It's weird.

Some people may be able to get the most out of studying both at the same time. I applaud you because it didn't work for me. I know a lot of people in this thread studied in many different ways and seem almost offended that other people are studying a different way but that's life, it seems.

The thing about kanji is that it's not a completely logographic system, and even the vast majority that is logographic isn't all ideograms and pictographs. Sometimes elements are used for their pronunciation, not necessarily their meaning, like 洗（radical 水 plus phonetic &#20808 or 銅 (radical 金 plus phonetic &#21516. The Chinese just couldn't let people get away with just a reading-first or a meaning-first approach.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I can't speak Japanese but here's my contribution.

 

[zoku88]

The thing about kanji is that it's not a completely logographic system, and even the vast majority that is logographic isn't all ideograms and pictographs. Sometimes elements are used for their pronunciation, not necessarily their meaning, like 洗（radical 水 plus phonetic &#20808 or 銅 (radical 金 plus phonetic &#21516. The Chinese just couldn't let people get away with just a reading-first or a meaning-first approach.

Heh, you learn something new everyday. For me, it was the meaning of logographic

 

[Kilrogg]

Hitokage, this thread is about learning kanji only.....

anyways.

After doing some research on neogaf and elsewhere I found some recommended books and software.

Most notably:
-free websites websites found in threads.
-Heisig's Remebering the Kanji.
-Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar
-Genki 1: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese 1
-Pimsleur
-Rosetta Stone
-could probably look up Japanese books required for Japanese classes and buy them from college bookstores.

What combination would be best to be well fluent in grammar, writing, speech, and reading? In a college course it's all done at once.

so far i think roesetta or pimsleur for speaking. and OP for learning kanji.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I can add 2 things to your list :
- Anki (software): if you want to learn vocabulary, kanji and expressions efficiently.
- Making Sense of Japanese, Jay Rubin: already talked about this book earlier in this thread, but for some reason, it keeps being ignored. Basically, it's the cheapest and most entertaining way to learning key grammatical concepts and understanding the not-so-obvious fact that Japanese IS a different language. It's not English, not even an Indo-European language, so yeah, you'll have to tackle things a bit differently.

Seriously, be the first person in this thread besides me to acknowledge the greatness that is Rubin's book.

 

[sprsk]

I can't speak Japanese but here's my contribution.

NSFW image

Take that shit somewhere else.

 

[RevenantKioku]

The thing about kanji is that it's not a completely logographic system, and even the vast majority that is logographic isn't all ideograms and pictographs. Sometimes elements are used for their pronunciation, not necessarily their meaning, like 洗（radical 水 plus phonetic &#20808 or 銅 (radical 金 plus phonetic &#21516. The Chinese just couldn't let people get away with just a reading-first or a meaning-first approach.

This is true but confusing to why it's replied to my post.

 

[Xizk]

Seriously, be the first person in this thread besides me to acknowledge the greatness that is Rubin's book.

Been reading Jay Rubins book. Very interesting and good explanations.

 

[marvelharvey]

Has anyone used the DS Kanji Trainer? If so, can we pick and choose the kanji that we'd like to practice? I get the impression from the website that the user is given a different set each day. I'm only on around 500 at the moment, so studying from all 3119 on the cart is a little stupid.

So is there another mode in which we can select our kanji?

 

[Hitokage]

This is true but confusing to why it's replied to my post.

Heisig has you put off readings in favor of meaning, right? Just remarking how nobody gets let off easy.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Heisig has you put off readings in favor of meaning, right? Just remarking how nobody gets let off easy.

I think there is a misunderstanding, perhaps my fault. It has most definitely been easier for me under Heisig's method but still much effort has been required.

 

[Kilrogg]

BTW, let me tell you all that electronic portable dictionaries (denshi jisho/jiten) are wonderful devices. Seriously.

I mean, mine has been bought 5 years ago or so, which, in the Japanese world, means it's completely outdated, yet hardly a day goes by without my using it. I guess it's even more useful when you're in Japan (I'm not... yet).

The newer models seem to have sound in them, which would be a godsend for a pronounciation/accent freak like me.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

BTW, let me tell you all that electronic portable dictionaries (denshi jisho/jiten) are wonderful devices. Seriously.

I mean, mine has been bought 5 years ago or so, which, in the Japanese world, means it's completely outdated, yet hardly a day goes by without my using it. I guess it's even more useful when you're in Japan (I'm not... yet).

The newer models seem to have sound in them, which would be a godsend for a pronounciation/accent freak like me.

I owe a large majority of my success to having constantly carried an electronic dictionary on me. Start using the Koujien (Japanese -> Japanese dictionary) as soon as you able to, as well.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I just don't have the space on me to carry it. "/

 

[Kilrogg]

I owe a large majority of my success to having constantly carried an electronic dictionary on me. Start using the Koujien (Japanese -> Japanese dictionary) as soon as you able to, as well.

Thanks for the tip. I'll do it as soon as I'm proficient enough. What good features do the newer models come with, by the way? I won't buy one anytime soon, since my current dictionary is a recent gift (which sure made me happy, as it was completely unexpected ), but I'm curious anyway.

My Casio XD-R7200 has no backlight, no sound and no touchscreen, unlike the newer models, but aside from these logical evolutions, what is there to these newer dictionaries?

 

[cvxfreak]

I'd just like to chime in this thread with tons of love for OSX Leopard's built-in and Apple-designed Dictionary application. Of all the foreign languages in the world that it accepts, Japanese just happens to be it.

The Japanese Synonyms feature is immensely useful. I can now discern the difference between 使用 and 利用. It's Japanese-English translations utilize practical and useful examples and translations. I've learned so much from the Dictionary. I wish I could take it with me everywhere, so I really hope someone converts the Japanese functionality to the iPhone and iPod touch. Simply amazing.

 

[Kilrogg]

I'd just like to chime in this thread with tons of love for OSX Leopard's built-in and Apple-designed Dictionary application. Of all the foreign languages in the world that it accepts, Japanese just happens to be it.

The Japanese Synonyms feature is immensely useful. I can now discern the difference between 使用 and 利用. It's Japanese-English translations utilize practical and useful examples and translations. I've learned so much from the Dictionary. I wish I could take it with me everywhere, so I really hope someone converts the Japanese functionality to the iPhone and iPod touch. Simply amazing.

Is that so? How does it work exactly? There's one feature I'd like (Windows XP here), and that's the ability to display the readings and meanings of the words when web-browsing. If I could display them simply by hovering over the words with the cursor, that would be really helpful. Does anyone know of, like, a Firefox plugin that would do just that?

 

[Zoe]

Is that so? How does it work exactly? There's one feature I'd like (Windows XP here), and that's the ability to display the readings and meanings of the words when web-browsing. If I could display them simply by hovering over the words with the cursor, that would be really helpful. Does anyone know of, like, a Firefox plugin that would do just that?

I just heard about RikaiChan yesterday. Haven't given it a try though.

 

[cvxfreak]

Is that so? How does it work exactly? There's one feature I'd like (Windows XP here), and that's the ability to display the readings and meanings of the words when web-browsing. If I could display them simply by hovering over the words with the cursor, that would be really helpful. Does anyone know of, like, a Firefox plugin that would do just that?

Ah, I wasn't really referring to anything like that actually. The Dictionary in OSX is a separate program and you must manually enter in words. Still, it's easy to cut and paste into the dictionary and get nice responses.

 

[Manabanana]

Ah, I wasn't really referring to anything like that actually. The Dictionary in OSX is a separate program and you must manually enter in words. Still, it's easy to cut and paste into the dictionary and get nice responses.

Try out JEDict. It has a browser built in and you can drag pages from Safari/Camino/whatever into the app and it'll bring up the dictionary search in a drawer for any word or phrase you highlight on the page. It's amazing for reading news or blogs.

http://jedict.com/

Direct link to app:
http://jedict.com/Downloads/JEDict453.dmg

 

[Kilrogg]

I just heard about RikaiChan yesterday. Haven't given it a try though.

Thanks. Just installed it. Seems quite useful, if a bit loaded. The amount of information displayed when you highlight a character or word can be confusing. Oh well, at least it seems exhaustive. Thanks again.

 

[Shirokun]

I need some help with Anki

I haven't looked over some of my decks in a while, and now for some of the kanji I'm not too sharp on, it wants to hide them away for a minimum of 3 months if I get it right. Does anyone know how to reset these settings and/or change them?

Thanks!

 

[Zoe]

Thanks. Just installed it. Seems quite useful, if a bit loaded. The amount of information displayed when you highlight a character or word can be confusing. Oh well, at least it seems exhaustive. Thanks again.

Yeah, I'm trying it out now. It even works in text-entry boxes. I'll probably stick to WWWJDIC for longer passages.

Need to find some idioms and see how it handles those...

 

[Kilrogg]

Yeah, I'm trying it out now. It even works in text-entry boxes. I'll probably stick to WWWJDIC for longer passages.

Need to find some idioms and see how it handles those...

Be sure to tell us the results, then.

What's WWWJDIC, and how does it work? Seems a bit complicated.

 

[Zoe]

What's WWWJDIC, and how does it work? Seems a bit complicated.

WWWJDIC

It's just a text-parser site. It only translates kanji and some common phrases, so it's no good if you don't understand Japanese grammar, but I find it to be very helpful.

Sometimes it doesn't parse things properly though (picking up the wrong phrases), so you may have to manipulate the text.

I also use the multi-radical lookup part fairly often.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I need some help with Anki

I haven't looked over some of my decks in a while, and now for some of the kanji I'm not too sharp on, it wants to hide them away for a minimum of 3 months if I get it right. Does anyone know how to reset these settings and/or change them?

Thanks!

2 is giving you a minimum of 3 months? How long has it been? :lol

 

[Zoe]

I gave RikaiChan a longer try with a translation. It was pretty useful, although I can't find a good way to get rid of the hotkeys when typing. You have to be careful not to keep the cursor near any text when working with a textbox.