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[shanshan310]

Hey Mik, congrats on the job!!! I didn't even realise you weren't a native English speaker. How's your Spanish fairing after living in Japan for so long?

 

[louis89]

Hey! Just wanted to come by and say I passed my interview!! So I will be going to Fukuoka to work on that game company starting in January at the latest (all's up to when I get my working visa). I still don't know if I can say where I'll be working, but I can say it's a big place and it isn't Level 5

What are your hours and salary, if you don't mind?

 

[Desiato]

Congrats man, Fukuoka is an amazing place to live.

 

[Mik2121]

Hey Mik, congrats on the job!!! I didn't even realise you weren't a native English speaker. How's your Spanish fairing after living in Japan for so long?

It's fine I guess! I talk with my mother once a week so I get to use it then, and I usually don't have problems explaining myself

What are your hours and salary, if you don't mind?

I've yet to start working and sign the final contract, but 9 to 7 and 230k yen a month plus bonus and I get a salary increase once a year.

Congrats man, Fukuoka is an amazing place to live.

Thanks! I've been to Fukuoka only once and it was for 3 days so this will be my first time living there. I have a friend there that's been living in Fukuoka for the last 6 years or so, I think. Hopefully he can guide me a bit around the city for the good places to buy electronics and the like, etc..


edit - was rereading the thread and noticed I put the hour wrong. It's from 9 to 7, not 9 to 6.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Hey GAF, What's good? I've been studying Japanese for 4 years, and I used to live in Tokyo. I've been getting more serious about Japanese study as I prepare to find a job where my language ability will be used as a selling point on my resume.

I have gotten into using google with quotes to gauge how 'common' or 'natural' a phrasing is. Sometimes, things make sense, but they make you sound like a total weirdo.

So, say I wanted to say: "I feel like I want to eat anchovies directly from the can."　(true story)

It's difficult to say what is natural, because a lot of the times the things you are taught are not what is naturally said. In particular, the usage of particles.

If I was out in the field and I had to guess, I would say:

アンチョビを缶から直接食べたい気がする

Google showed some support for this structure, as there were several instances using the particle "を” in this way. Sometimes with a comma after を. There were a few instances of people using the particle "は" instead.

アンチョビは缶から直接食べたい気がする

However, I was not 100 percent sure on how common the usage was. So, I take the part of the sentence I am sure about "缶から直接食べたい” and searched for it with quotes.

Well, a new problem arose. I'd say around 90 percent of returns said something along the lines of: お尻の穴から直接食べたい. Jean-Luc FacePalm.　So, now I don't know if it is a natural sentence or not. So, I will defer to GAF's expertise on the matter:

IF I were to say "何故かアンチョビを缶から直接食べたい気がする," would that feel somewhat natural? If not, what would YOU say, GAF? Once again, the intended meaning in English is "For some reason I feel like I want to eat anchovies directly from the can."

I appreciate any help on the matter. Thanks GAF!

 

[shanshan310]

アンチョビを缶から直接食べたい気がする sounds best to me, but do you really need the 気がする part? I feel like you could get the meaning across better without it. But that's just me, you should probably wait for some of my better-at-Japanese 先輩 to respond.

 

[vas_a_morir]

アンチョビは缶から直接食べたい気がする sounds best to me, but do you really need the 気がする part? I feel like you could get the meaning across better without it. But that's just me, you should probably wait for some of my better-at-Japanese 先輩 to respond.

Well, the "Ki ga suru" is not necessary, but it adds a bit of humor I felt due to the absurd nature of the sentence. I mean, why would you get the feeling that you want to eat salty/gamey ass anchovies? lol

But, that isn't important. I added that in just so I can test that grammar point, as well!

 

[shanshan310]

Well, the "Ki ga suru" is not necessary, but it adds a bit of humor I felt due to the absurd nature of the sentence. I mean, why would you get the feeling that you want to eat salty/gamey ass anchovies? lol

But, that isn't important. I added that in just so I can test that grammar point, as well!

aaah, I'd also like to see as well. I only really use ki ga suru if I say something like "sonna ki ga suru".

 

[vas_a_morir]

aaah, I'd also like to see as well. I only really use ki ga suru if I say something like "sonna ki ga suru".

Yeah. In conversation, I used "Ki ga suru" but I always said it like "---you na ki ga suru"

For me, the question is rarely ever if it is correct or not, but rather how natural it is! I've got so much work left to do, it's disgusting.

I would like to make a suggestion: If we were to relegate it to the Community section, could we have a thread where we use Japanese and allow for critiques, suggestions, and discussions based on it? I mean, a thread where 95% of text is Japanese? I know that's asking for a lot, but it would be nice, don't you think?

 

[Mik2121]

Yeah, from how it sounds, 「アンチョビは缶から直接食べたい気がする」sounds more like something you would say about, say, your cat. You can definitely use it as the meaning you're trying to give it, but it won't sound exactly as natural, I think.

As for plain ol'「アンチョビは缶から直接食べたい」, that one you already know what it means so yeah, different meaning.

What I would use (and do in fact use sometimes) would be「〜かも」as in, 「アンチョビは缶から直接食べたいかもー」. It's definitely not a phrase construction made to express exactly what you're saying, but I find it much more commonly used.

Worst case scenario, you can go for the safest option though the meaning isn't exactly the same... 「アンチョビ缶から直接食べたくなった」. But I think the best person to help out with this would be Gachapin

 

[vas_a_morir]

yeah, the problem with that sentence is that even in English, it is such a bizarre concept that it can never really sound natural!

Thanks Mik!

 

[Mik2121]

Yeah. In conversation, I used "Ki ga suru" but I always said it like "---you na ki ga suru"

For me, the question is rarely ever if it is correct or not, but rather how natural it is! I've got so much work left to do, it's disgusting.

I would like to make a suggestion: If we were to relegate it to the Community section, could we have a thread where we use Japanese and allow for critiques, suggestions, and discussions based on it? I mean, a thread where 95% of text is Japanese? I know that's asking for a lot, but it would be nice, don't you think?

This thread was full-on Japanese just a couple pages ago Some 15 replies or so all in a row were in Japanese and I'd say it was good practice for many, but other people kinda gave up or something, dunno...

I would be up for a Japanese-only (with corrections in English for the less fluent people). It could be a great way to practice, imo.

 

[shanshan310]

This thread was full-on Japanese just a couple pages ago Some 15 replies or so all in a row were in Japanese and I'd say it was good practice for many, but other people kinda gave up or something, dunno...

I would be up for a Japanese-only (with corrections in English for the less fluent people). It could be a great way to practice, imo.

I think it would be awesome!

My only worry is there are a lot of beginners who come in looking for a place to start. they'd probably be pretty intimidated by the great big walls of kanji

 

[vas_a_morir]

I think it would be awesome!

My only worry is there are a lot of beginners who come in looking for a place to start. they'd probably be pretty intimidated by the great big walls of kanji

Well, my thinking is that beginners can come in here, and people who feel they can hold their own in conversation can go to the community thread. We have millions and millions of threads... one more couldn't hurt all that bad.

 

[Zoe]

Mik attempted a Japanese thread a few years ago and it got locked

 

[vas_a_morir]

Mik attempted a Japanese thread a few years ago and it got locked

This is why I think keeping it in the community section might help.

 

[shanshan310]

This is why I think keeping it in the community section might help.

They just started up a German one, with the title in German etc. So we might have a chance.

 

[Mik2121]

Mik attempted a Japanese thread a few years ago and it got locked

I think back then I did it the wrong way, because I literally used no English AT ALL. Like, not even for the thread title.

But maybe if we ask the mods and, as vas said, put it in the Community thread or something, maybe it could work.

The best thing, however, would be if the mods could do something so that the thread doesn't show up at the top every time someone replies. That way people wouldn't be bothered about it. Maybe if the mods make it a sticky in, say, page 20 or so... I don't know if it's possible, but it would be neat.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I think back then I did it the wrong way, because I literally used no English AT ALL. Like, not even for the thread title.

But maybe if we ask the mods and, as vas said, put it in the Community thread or something, maybe it could work.

The best thing, however, would be if the mods could do something so that the thread doesn't show up at the top every time someone replies. That way people wouldn't be bothered about it. Maybe if the mods make it a sticky in, say, page 20 or so... I don't know if it's possible, but it would be neat.

Ah! Almost like an invite-only subscription thread. (in the sense that to use it regularly, you'd have to have it subscribed)

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think back then I did it the wrong way, because I literally used no English AT ALL. Like, not even for the thread title.

But maybe if we ask the mods and, as vas said, put it in the Community thread or something, maybe it could work.

The best thing, however, would be if the mods could do something so that the thread doesn't show up at the top every time someone replies. That way people wouldn't be bothered about it. Maybe if the mods make it a sticky in, say, page 20 or so... I don't know if it's possible, but it would be neat.

.

 

[Mik2121]

sage

It would be oh-so-dangerous if that worked on gaf, lol. We would probably have the weirdest threads down there, waiting for someone to accidentally find it and post something that takes all that shit up to the first page, lol

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It would be oh-so-dangerous if that worked on gaf, lol. We would probably have the weirdest threads down there, waiting for someone to accidentally find it and post something that takes all that shit up to the first page, lol

It could definitely make things more interesting!

 

[shanshan310]

Ah! Almost like an invite-only subscription thread. (in the sense that to use it regularly, you'd have to have it subscribed)

I'm not sure if the mods would like that though.

 

[Tenck]

I think back then I did it the wrong way, because I literally used no English AT ALL. Like, not even for the thread title.

But maybe if we ask the mods and, as vas said, put it in the Community thread or something, maybe it could work.

The best thing, however, would be if the mods could do something so that the thread doesn't show up at the top every time someone replies. That way people wouldn't be bothered about it. Maybe if the mods make it a sticky in, say, page 20 or so... I don't know if it's possible, but it would be neat.

A thread for Japanese would be amazing in the community side. Why wouldn't mods allow it though?

That's what I'm getting from this conversation.

 

[Mik2121]

Uhm... got an email from the company where I'm applying asking me what about working on their studio @ Tokyo. I wouldn't mind, but if the salary is the same, living in Tokyo would mean I would save much less money and potentially would have to spend more time on the subway..

The company is just suggesting it and I can just go to Fukuoka instead, but... damn, I don't know what to do. I wanna go to Tokyo as well, but it's so damn expensive... and I don't think the salary changes (hard to ask ).

 

[shanshan310]

Not to mention (if you are like me) you will end up buying things all the time if you live in Tokyo To be honest I found living in Tokyo to be kind of overwhelming. If you love big cities, go for it. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of city life (there is always something to do), but I did end up spending a lot. A LOT. I also found myself missing nature, weirdly enough. Those little parks in-between the buildings just didn't cut it for me. Its a kind of impersonal city, to me.

We can't decide for you, but if you think you can afford it I'd say go. You sound like Tokyo is your preference!

 

[Gacha-pin]

正式に採用されたの？おめでとう！！
大きい会社だと東京勤務になったりすると都市手当みたいな名目のものが月に1～2万円出るよ。ゲーム会社だと嫌になるほど残業があるんだろうから額面23万で十分東京でも暮らせると思う。


/hack...?

 

[Mik2121]

Not to mention (if you are like me) you will end up buying things all the time if you live in Tokyo To be honest I found living in Tokyo to be kind of overwhelming. If you love big cities, go for it. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of city life (there is always something to do), but I did end up spending a lot. A LOT. I also found myself missing nature, weirdly enough. Those little parks in-between the buildings just didn't cut it for me. Its a kind of impersonal city, to me.

We can't decide for you, but if you think you can afford it I'd say go. You sound like Tokyo is your preference!

Well, I've been living in Osaka which is also a pretty big city and I don't really have trouble feeling overwhelmed or anything like that. I would actually feel kinda.. bummed, living in Fukuoka. But on the other side, Fukuoka is probably the better place to live because it's cheaper, and probably feels less stressful.
I can also probably afford living in Tokyo, but that would mean not saving much money, at least not compared to living in Fukuoka. Ah... oh well, I will have to think about this for a while

正式に採用されたの？おめでとう！！
大きい会社だと東京勤務になったりすると都市手当みたいな名目のものが月に1～2万円出るよ。ゲーム会社だと嫌になるほど残業があるんだろうから額面23万で十分東京でも暮らせると思う。


/hack...?

まあ、２３万で暮らしていくのはそうかもしれないけど、同じ給料だと福岡で暮らしたほうがお金貯めれるなぁ・・あと、僕は電車に乗るのもあんま好きじゃないから（時間の無駄）できればチャリンコで１５分ぐらいのとこがベストだな・・　それじゃ、家賃めっちゃ高くなっちゃう！
でもまぁ、とりあえず会社の人と相談してから・・

・・

うん、ピンポ〜ンw

 

[Gacha-pin]

品川にあるみたいね。電車で15分なら結構ありそうだけど、チャリで15分圏内だと10万以上は出さないとそれなりのところに住めなさそうなん感じ・・・

正直言うと一つも知ってるゲームがないけどMikが関わったのが出たら絶対買うよ～!!

 

[AngryMoth]

Been learning for about 10 weeks now and I feel like things are finally starting to come together. Up to about 140 kanji now (currently learning animals which is fun). Trying to get a better understanding of some of the particles at the moment which is opening things up a lot for me.

 

[Valygar]

I've discovered this website, and it's helpful to study kanjis with heisig: http://kanji.koohii.com/ ,it has a good feature where you can look for a kanji and the people write their own stories about it. It has helped me with some of the most obscure meanings, but I don't know if I should use it more and spend time memorizing those meanings, or if it will be better to come up with something of my own, even if it takes more time and the story is more absurd.

Any advice?

In other pieces of news, I'm quite proud of my kanji study. Up to 580 kanji right now, and I think I remember most of them as I only forget about 5 out of 90 in the anki reviews.

PS: A friend of mine studied 1000 kanji in TWO WEEKS. He must be as crazy as heisig. I usually do 20-30 each day, some days a bit more, some days a bit less.

 

[shanshan310]

Been learning for about 10 weeks now and I feel like things are finally starting to come together. Up to about 140 kanji now (currently learning animals which is fun). Trying to get a better understanding of some of the particles at the moment which is opening things up a lot for me.

Ten weeks and 140 kanji :O I need to speed up... Well done dude.

I've been going 4 years and I'd say I know 700ish.

 

[Mik2121]

品川にあるみたいね。電車で15分なら結構ありそうだけど、チャリで15分圏内だと10万以上は出さないとそれなりのところに住めなさそうなん感じ・・・

正直言うと一つも知ってるゲームがないけどMikが関わったのが出たら絶対買うよ～!!

うん・・電車で１５分でもまあ、別にいいんだけど・・できればチャリで行きたいなぁー

出してるゲームは確かナルトとかドットハックがメインだけど、今度また全然違う感じのゲームも出すし、これからも色々と新しいゲーム作りそうな感じがする。僕はまだちゃんと会社に入ってないから話など聞いてないし、聞いたところで逆に、何も教えれなくなるけど・・去年東京スタジオ作ったし、今カプコンと何か新しいプロジェクト作ってるから、これからもそういうの作っていくんじゃないかな・・

まぁ、また僕が関わったゲーム発売されたら教える！会社に入るのすごい楽しみにしてるーー！（それまれ練習して、自分で色々作ってるw）

 

[KariOhki]

It's been a week and a half and I've learned 70 kanji using Heisig, plus I know a few more from when I last studied the language. Some I still have trouble with, usually the odd ones like 胆 or 昇. Need to spend more time on grammar, though, I'm having trouble figuring out how to practice that.

 

[KtSlime]

It's been a week and a half and I've learned 70 kanji using Heisig, plus I know a few more from when I last studied the language. Some I still have trouble with, usually the odd ones like 胆 or 昇. Need to spend more time on grammar, though, I'm having trouble figuring out how to practice that.

Practicing grammar is surprisingly easy but it takes a bit more motivation than vocab/kanji.
Read, watch, make stupid (grammatically accurate) sentences, listen, memorize, repeat. Eventually a sentence will either sound right or sound wrong after you have experienced enough of them. Make sure you have a good grammar guide so that when you come to a sentence you can't break apart and understand you've got that as backup. I personally love 'Handbook of Modern Japanese Grammar' by Yoko McClain- its pretty old now but is comprehensive, well organized, easy to browse, and accurate.

You have reminded me another reason why I dislike Heisig... The order he has you learn kanji makes no sense in the real world. Don't worry about kanji that you are still having trouble with - just keep forgetting them. Every time you forget something you are simply giving yourself another chance to remember it, using methods such as SRS will automatically allocate more time to the areas you are having trouble with - so I wouldn't fret unless you are forgetting more than 15% of what you studied. And if you are forgetting a bunch that is just a sign that at the moment you need to slow down your intake. As you get more familiar with the nature of kanji you will get better at learning and remembering new ones.

Keep at it, make sure you review your learned kanji frequently, your still new at it so the brain shelf life of the kanji is not more than a week or two, but before long you should be able extend that.

頑張れ！

 

[shanshan310]

hm... I'm not sure about heisig. On one hand you learn a crazy amount of kanji really fast. On the other hand, you really will still have no idea how to read words. Like I said, I only know about 700 - that I can read. I can write a lot less than that, but really the only time I need to write is during exams, or when I'm writing a letter etc (for the latter I can use a kanji dictionary anyway though). What I do use all the time though is a keyboard. You type in the pronunciation, press space and it converts it into kanji. I really feel that the primary focus should be on the reading of kanji rather than the writing (which still has its merits). If you can say the word (use it in a conversation) or read the word, it will be of much more use than being able to write it and know the characters individual english meaning.

I know that RevenantKioku is a big supporter of it, but it kinda bugs me that he's hyped it so much in the OP. It does have its benefits, but all the people looking to learn Japanese are going to come into this thread and jump straight to heisig. It doesn't work for everyone and really I personally don't think its the best way to learn.

 

[KidA Seven]

I don't like Heisig either tbh. I like learning kanji through vocab.

 

[KtSlime]

hm... I'm not sure about heisig. On one hand you learn a crazy amount of kanji really fast. On the other hand, you really will still have no idea how to read words. Like I said, I only know about 700 - that I can read. I can write a lot less than that, but really the only time I need to write is during exams, or when I'm writing a letter etc (for the latter I can use a kanji dictionary anyway though). What I do use all the time though is a keyboard. You type in the pronunciation, press space and it converts it into kanji. I really feel that the primary focus should be on the reading of kanji rather than the writing (which still has its merits). If you can say the word (use it in a conversation) or read the word, it will be of much more use than being able to write it and know the characters individual english meaning.

I know that RevenantKioku is a big supporter of it, but it kinda bugs me that he's hyped it so much in the OP. It does have its benefits, but all the people looking to learn Japanese are going to come into this thread and jump straight to heisig. It doesn't work for everyone and really I personally don't think its the best way to learn.

700 is pretty good, especially if it is the right combination of 700. I've long lost track of how many I can read or write, it kind of doesn't matter to me anymore. I know that I can do pretty much all of N5-2 and most of N1, or 漢検3級 depending on how you want to measure, really depends on the day. My writing has gotten pretty weak, I really only pull it out when I've noticed that I've keep forgetting the same thing (I remember that I forget it, ugh) and I use it to reinforce my memory. That really is the benefit of writing kanji if you can remember it well enough to draw it, you can remember it well enough to read it, that and being able to write messages on birthday cards without pulling out your jisho.

I just really have not interest in Heisig because it's backwards, unrewarding, and cumbersome. And I mean this as no slight to the people that studied using it, but the progress made for a long time isn't really progress. You can learn 2000 characters in RTK1, but it won't do you a lick of good when the waitress asks you "御注文を承りましょうか?" and all you can reply is "アイデゥナトアンダースタンド、カンユライチットンペーパープリズ". If you are lucky they might understand what you want (not likely) and then you can read it on paper as honorable-warning-word-visit (or whatever Heisig's associated English terms are). Anyway I could go on in this hypothetical situation but you all get the point. Japanese is first and foremost a spoken language, so being able to interpret the English meanings of a character on a flashcard seems to me to be a big waste of time. If you managed to stick through and learn using Heisig, congrats, I'm glad it worked for you, but I believe there are better ways.

KidA Seven: Yeah, I feel learning it through vocab, especially 熟語 is really the most efficient. You can get a feeling for the abstract concept of the character (after seeing how it is used to make many words), as well as learn a vocab word, and a reading of the character. 一挙両得

 

[Valygar]

Well, I see Heisig as nothing as a help to THEN study japanese. It's not useful by itself. I may end up knowing in two months more kanjis than shanshan310, but I will really know 10% the japanese he knows (or less). Heisig is good if you have good memory or imagination, because it helps you to jump to japanese like it was just another language, because you already know the "alphabet".

I started using it because I'm more interested in reading than anything else, and I could not remember any kanji of the first Genki lessons (for me they were weird symbols). That said, it's probably more useful to use a kanji book that teaches you the kanjis in more or less the right order, along with some useful vocabulary and pronunciation. Your pace will be slower, but you will learn more useful things in the way.

Ultimately, I didnt want to start heisig until I was done with the first book of Genki, but my friend told me he learned 1000 kanji in 2 weeks, my Genki studies were going veeery slow, and I decided to switch to Heisig to be "trapped" into learning japanese.

Finally, I would say the key for kanji is using some sort of memorization tool like Anki, rather than studying Heisig. It helps so much to keep track of what kanjis you know, specially in this early stages. I mean, I know that when I learn a lot of japanese if I see a kanji I don't know I will probably be able to infer its meaning by the context (and the reading itself will help me to remember things). But right now, I need to build a solid kanji/vocabulary "database" and anki helps a lot with that.

 

[Gacha-pin]

Mik attempted a Japanese thread a few years ago and it got locked

I accidentally found that thread while I was googling.

インターネットと日本語が組み合わさると、たとえ日本人じゃなくてもスレの雰囲気が２ちゃんねるチックになるのね。kyでスレッドが終了してるのがなんとも言えない・・・。

 

[Lostconfused]

KidA Seven: Yeah, I feel learning it through vocab, especially 熟語 is really the most efficient. You can get a feeling for the abstract concept of the character (after seeing how it is used to make many words), as well as learn a vocab word, and a reading of the character. 一挙両得

So what's a good vocabulary book/guide to study from?

 

[KtSlime]

So what's a good vocabulary book/guide to study from?

Yeah, I guess that's a bit of a problem. Learning Japanese really seems divided, especially when you don't use a textbook. In the beginning you have cute little books like "Let's Learn Hiragana", "Speak Japanese Today!", and "Kanji 100", and towards the end* there are "2008 1-2級日本語能力試験問題と正解", "中上級者のための速読の日本語". There are also some interesting books on particular topics scattered between, but authors of books on Japanese really target the ends of the spectrum of learning, rather than the middle. This either makes it hard for many to learn Japanese, or it is a result of many giving up somewhere in the middle and killing that market. I'm not sure, I just feel it is a problem. :lol

I personally got much of my vocab from actual Japanese manga/novels/tv/漢検DS games/etc and looked them up in a jisho - there are also books that are compilations of news paper articles that have a page with a list of intermediate/advanced vocab. Pretty much anything JLPT3 and higher.

As for where to get a good vocab list - years ago Smart.fm made a core 2000 and a core 6000 vocab which are relatively ordered from most frequently used to least frequently used. Many have imported this list into flashcards for Anki - so that's a cheap and easy way to get many common vocab. I have yet to find a book that has a really good list of vocab written in kanji, most beginner-early-intermediate books use romaji/katakana/hiragana. I guess I know why they do it - to try and not scare away new learners and ease the learning curve for reading/writing, but I still believe in a more natural and integrated approach to learning the language.

*there is no real end to learning a language

 

[Valygar]

Yeah, I guess that's a bit of a problem. Learning Japanese really seems divided, especially when you don't use a textbook. In the beginning you have cute little books like "Let's Learn Hiragana", "Speak Japanese Today!", and "Kanji 100", and towards the end* there are "2008 1-2級日本語能力試験問題と正解", "中上級者のための速読の日本語". There are also some interesting books on particular topics scattered between, but authors of books on Japanese really target the ends of the spectrum of learning, rather than the middle. This either makes it hard for many to learn Japanese, or it is a result of many giving up somewhere in the middle and killing that market. I'm not sure, I just feel it is a problem. :lol

I personally got much of my vocab from actual Japanese manga/novels/tv/漢検DS games/etc and looked them up in a jisho - there are also books that are compilations of news paper articles that have a page with a list of intermediate/advanced vocab. Pretty much anything JLPT3 and higher.

As for where to get a good vocab list - years ago Smart.fm made a core 2000 and a core 6000 vocab which are relatively ordered from most frequently used to least frequently used. Many have imported this list into flashcards for Anki - so that's a cheap and easy way to get many common vocab. I have yet to find a book that has a really good list of vocab written in kanji, most beginner-early-intermediate books use romaji/katakana/hiragana. I guess I know why they do it - to try and not scare away new learners and ease the learning curve for reading/writing, but I still believe in a more natural and integrated approach to learning the language.

*there is no real end to learning a language

Thank you! I didn't know about smart fm list and it seems very useful. I'll try to use that when I get to 1000 kanji, along with some grammar with Genki.

And you never stop learning a language... I had to look for a few Spanish words (my native language) with the Heisig book, as it was using a meaning different for the word to the one I was used to :a

 

[Mik2121]

I accidentally found that thread while I was googling.

インターネットと日本語が組み合わさると、たとえ日本人じゃなくてもスレの雰囲気が２ちゃんねるチックになるのね。kyでスレッドが終了してるのがなんとも言えない・・・。

うん、あのスレッドまじであかんかったから、見てほしくないw 今の僕の日本語のレベルと比べるとやっぱちょっと下手やし、使う言葉も意味不明やし・・もう、あのスレッドなかったことにしよう。うん、そうしようねw

 

[Lostconfused]

As for where to get a good vocab list - years ago Smart.fm made a core 2000 and a core 6000 vocab which are relatively ordered from most frequently used to least frequently used. Many have imported this list into flashcards for Anki - so that's a cheap and easy way to get many common vocab.

This looks really neat, I'll give it a shot.

Edit: My only problem with stuff like this is that I can't keep a regular pace. Ten words a day is too little to start with and I want to get through as much as I can, but later on I'll start to slack off. But since this system is automated and will make you review stuff you forgot, I hope it will keep me on the right track. Still, really neat.

 

[suffah]

This looks really neat, I'll give it a shot.

Edit: My only problem with stuff like this is that I can't keep a regular pace. Ten words a day is too little to start with and I want to get through as much as I can, but later on I'll start to slack off. But since this system is automated and will make you review stuff you forgot, I hope it will keep me on the right track. Still, really neat.

I dunno, it's not hard to load it up a couple times a day.

I've used it religiously for at least 4 years (not just for Japanese)....with web features and syncing decks I have no excuse to miss reviews. I'll do them in line at the market if needed

 

[vivin]

I'm currently working through the core2000 on anki, but at a rather slow pace (25new cards a day)

I'm quite envious of people who can blast through it in 2 or so weeks, but I found that's not how it works for me.

It took me 10months to "finish" heisig. I just kept up a 10words a day speed, and slowly worked my way through it. I find the higher number of reviews allow me to really remember the meanings.

at the rate im going on core2000, ill be done sometime mid 2012 ^^;


Off note, congrats again on the job Mik2121, sounds like you have a tough decision to make >_<

My plan to visit Japan one day is back on, thanks to my new job bringing in decent $. I'm aiming for the end of 2012. I'm hoping by then, I will know enough Japanese to stumble around the place, and have enough money saved to take a decent break. Its nice to have a goal to work towards :3

 

[KtSlime]

I'm currently working through the core2000 on anki, but at a rather slow pace (25new cards a day)

I'm quite envious of people who can blast through it in 2 or so weeks, but I found that's not how it works for me.

It took me 10months to "finish" heisig. I just kept up a 10words a day speed, and slowly worked my way through it. I find the higher number of reviews allow me to really remember the meanings.

at the rate im going on core2000, ill be done sometime mid 2012 ^^;


Off note, congrats again on the job Mik2121, sounds like you have a tough decision to make >_<

My plan to visit Japan one day is back on, thanks to my new job bringing in decent $. I'm aiming for the end of 2012. I'm hoping by then, I will know enough Japanese to stumble around the place, and have enough money saved to take a decent break. Its nice to have a goal to work towards :3

Seriously, 25 new vocab a day is just fine. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Many of the people that go and do 2000 word binge in a couple of weeks aren't doing themselves any favors. They often do it to get it out of the way, and then they wear themselves out, and take breaks from studying - because no one can sustain that kind of rate forever - our memories/brains won't allow it. Also if they drill super hard and then slow down some of the vocab won't get reviewed when they should, and they will forget that word until it eventually makes its way back to the top of the stack - and when it does they will likely fail it, recall that they should know that word, and then it will go back in review. The review pile builds up, because you have worn yourself out and so you can't review all the cards you need to. We are all this way - can you recall what you studied for a test 5 years ago? Probably not unless you have reviewed it after the test.

Or look at it this way - even studying 25 words a day:
30 days you could pass the N5
55 days you could pass the N4
122 days you could pass the N3
190 days you could pass the N2
306 days you could pass the N1 - the most recent test had about a 27% pass rate from ~75,000 takers - who have likely spent years learning the language.

Not to be a downer, but very few people pull it off at this rate, it's really really hard. So being comfortable - but not too comfortable (don't stagnate) is good.

Spend a little bit of time on some other things if you think you have some more time to spare towards Japanese. Pronunciation is good, people will not only better understand you when you use the right pitch at the right time, or have a smooth cadence, but they will be generally impressed and more likely to treat you as an equal in the conversation. Grab a random number generator and read off 20 or so numbers a day. Recite the date every day once in Japanese. Try learning the &#20061;&#20061; (times tables) I know you know them in your native language - but you will speed yourself up if you don't have to do math in English and then convert it to Japanese.

Just a bit of advice from a chronic flashcard binger. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Valygar]

For heisig, 10 words a day is perfect if you are studying/working or whatever. I'm studying 20-30 a day because I'm unemployed, and the stack of cards is beginning to be unbearable (up to 100 kanji review per day). I can't wait to switch to 10 when I get to 1000 (more or less) and study other useful things with the spare time.

25 new words of vocabulary each day is a fantastic pace. Not slow at all. The perfect pace is the pace you can keep up constantly each day, not the highest pace possible.

PS: Next post

I don't know that I would call it vocabulary if you can't say the word...

I'm sorry I was not clear, but with vocabulary I mean the smart.fm vocabulary flashcards, where you have the reading, a sample sentence, and even an audio cue. Heisig is not vocabulary at all.

 

[Zoe]

25 new words of vocabulary each day is a fantastic pace.

I don't know that I would call it vocabulary if you can't say the word...