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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
- Start date
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Here in spain the thing about the bread is actually the opposite! quite weird.
For those of you using anki+heisig, I found this:
http://japaneselevelup.com/2011/09/04/japanese-level-up-rtk-mod-anki-deck/ . It's a modded heisig anki deck, with some of flashcards deleted (its 1900 out of the 3000), and with the keywords also in japanese! . I thought it would be useful, so I've added the japanese keywords to my spanish heisig deck. 2 hours of pain with macros
, I thought it would be easy to do with Anki but it was a pain.
I've reached 850, my plan is getting to 1000 before christmas... and then, I don't know. I'll probably start working in january, so probably I'll do 10 a day + grammar study or things at the weekend.
For those of you using anki+heisig, I found this:
http://japaneselevelup.com/2011/09/04/japanese-level-up-rtk-mod-anki-deck/ . It's a modded heisig anki deck, with some of flashcards deleted (its 1900 out of the 3000), and with the keywords also in japanese! . I thought it would be useful, so I've added the japanese keywords to my spanish heisig deck. 2 hours of pain with macros
, I thought it would be easy to do with Anki but it was a pain.I've reached 850, my plan is getting to 1000 before christmas... and then, I don't know. I'll probably start working in january, so probably I'll do 10 a day + grammar study or things at the weekend.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You'll probably have to explain it each time, but Wikipedia might be a good start!
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/アメリカ合衆国の教育
shanshan310
Member
I find the opposite actually. Sure it sucks when there's a big wall of kanji compounds and all you can read are the particles, but when you DO know the kanji its really awkward to go back to hiragana readings. Especially with the characters I've been learning lately where almost every kanji has a reading of shi, shu, kyu, or kyo. Having the kanji makes it easier to understand the meaning. Also, if everything is in hiragana the words tend to run together in my head.
Lostconfused
Member
Well yeah sure. But as a beginner almost any kanji would make me reach for a dictionary. It's pretty hard to try and guess the meaning/reading in context when you don't know it. More often than not even simple stuff makes no sense if you didn't study it at all.
It's actually pretty easy to get the 音 of a kanji, similar looking kanji often have the same or similar/related sounds. Takes a bit of time, but soon you will be guessing the readings of kanji you have never seen with over 90% accuracy. I recommend everyone that doesn't already have one to get a book that shows the similar reading/looking similar looking/different reading such as Pye's The Study of Kanji. It is a great asset.
Anyone attending the JLPT this Sunday?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It still confuses me that you would prefer to have things written in Kana. Sure, you'll be able to read it out phonetically, but will you understand the meaning? You'll be reaching for your dictionary anyway. Chances are, if you don't know many Kanji, you don't know many words in Japanese, so you might as well learn vocabulary along with the Kanji.
sasimirobot
Junior Member
big world of hurt if you love kana in the long run. good luck with chinese if you want to make that jump...
Lostconfused
Member
Not necessarily.
Way to jump on a guy for an off hand comment. Which was that I find it easier to deal with at the moment.
I mean it as encouragement, nothing negative. The language is a wonderful and interesting one, and I spent 4 years in a department that was headed by a person that failed to acknowledge any changes in the language since the 70's and detested the Japanese writing system. You got to take the good with the bad, hard with the easy. After years of studying the language, I think kanji is one of the easier aspects, and greatly aids in understanding, reading, and the breaking down of the language into its base morphemes.
As a person who has dedicated much of his life in studying the language, and attempting shortcuts, my recommendation is to learn kanji and words together. Holding of will just stunt your development and cause you to shy from reading real Japanese.
頑張れ(がんばれ
Lostconfused
Member
Nah your comment was helpful. And I would gladly pick up any books you would recommend besides that one. Although I am far from getting into specific details of grammar. In all honesty I don't know proper grammar for either of the two languages that I know. But yes I can see how knowing kanji would give even a vague idea of the meaning of the sentence without understanding all the particles attached to it. Even though that might only enough for the simplest of communication.
shanshan310
Member
私三級やります-!
I just found a port of rikaichan for chrome:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/jipdnfibhldikgcjhfnomkfpcebammhp. This gives you a translation of the japanese words you might see there, just hovering with the mouse. It gives you the furigana reading if the word is a kanji, as well. Very useful!. I was trying to find an extension so the kanjis are always displayed at a bigger size, but well, rikaichan for chrome is good enough!
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/jipdnfibhldikgcjhfnomkfpcebammhp. This gives you a translation of the japanese words you might see there, just hovering with the mouse. It gives you the furigana reading if the word is a kanji, as well. Very useful!. I was trying to find an extension so the kanjis are always displayed at a bigger size, but well, rikaichan for chrome is good enough!
英会話先生よくいるかな。
Drives me insane when my private students tell me they want to learn English conversation but not grammar. Go ahead and memorize every possible sentence combination in the present perfect as a set of words with no grammatical structure. That's a fantastic way to learn a language.
The same goes for Japanese. 文法を勉強しないと自分の気持ちを表現できなくなる。Unless your goal is to just be jōzu enough to get complimented by Japanese people, you need to learn structure, syntax etc.
Drives me insane when my private students tell me they want to learn English conversation but not grammar. Go ahead and memorize every possible sentence combination in the present perfect as a set of words with no grammatical structure. That's a fantastic way to learn a language.
The same goes for Japanese. 文法を勉強しないと自分の気持ちを表現できなくなる。Unless your goal is to just be jōzu enough to get complimented by Japanese people, you need to learn structure, syntax etc.
Doing N2 tomorrow. Mock exams were so-so, it's probably a bit of a push after two years of studying, but I did N3 last year so nothing to do but try for N2.
It took me less than 6 months to start preferring texts with plenty of kanji rather than the kana, which is easy to read and understand if you know all the words and grammar used, but quite difficult to make sense of otherwise. Besides, having the kanji makes for much easier quick reading.
It took me less than 6 months to start preferring texts with plenty of kanji rather than the kana, which is easy to read and understand if you know all the words and grammar used, but quite difficult to make sense of otherwise. Besides, having the kanji makes for much easier quick reading.
So after Skyrim completely destroyed my study schedule for the last month, I've finally started getting back into it these last few days. I'm pleasantly surprised to discover that I remember all of the kanji I've done so far, as side from my most recent dozen or so.
Going to a conversation class at my uni next week which should be good for meeting people and improving my speaking skills. Sure, should beat talking to myself
Going to a conversation class at my uni next week which should be good for meeting people and improving my speaking skills. Sure, should beat talking to myself
Zoe
Member
Really? Only 3?
You guys don't eat pan like the way we eat rice!?!? Shocking (；￣Д￣
By the way, パンて聞くと自分は食パンが一番に思い浮かぶ。
Incredibly late but.. in Spain we eat break like in Japan you eat rice. Hell, in my house (though I don't live there anymore) we always have bread (not the white bread like in Japan, but the normal 'french bread' that you guys call.. even if it's not only french
). No matter what we're going to eat, we always have a small tray with lots of bread cut into smaller portions.I believe it's pretty much the same in Portugal, Italy and France.
そういえば、日本でそういうパンかなり高いんだよね・・食パンも高いし！コンビニとかで売ってる６枚入りの食パンでも、２００円ぐらいするんだけど、あれはスペインだったら同じ値段で１５枚入りぐらい買える！（本当は３０枚入りで、薄切りになってる
画像見つけたけど、解像度でかいからリンクだけ貼っとくー
http://www.vivereamadrid.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/panbimbo02b.jpg
Yeah, I'm pretty lazy and like to neglect my grammar a bit, but I've already had 4 years of a Japanese program that pretty much exclusively focused on the grammar (from an outsiders/linguistic perspective, not Japanese - so some of my Japanese grammar terminology is lacking).
Frankly I think people learning Japanese should learn that the way Japanese use jozu, is not how we typically expect. More often than not 'jozu' is an empty compliment, and should be interpreted as "I hear you attempting to speak, but I am not going to bother listening to what you are saying". It's better when they make contorted faces when you say something not quite right, than when you just receive false praise.
I'm also taking the N2 tomorrow, I'm pretty out of practice, have not really spoken but a few sentences in the past few months (no Japanese people in my town), but I'm going to give the N2 a shot, I'm pretty good on the kanji, and reading, but 動詞＋動詞 are probably my biggest weakness.
応援するよ！
I'm pretty impressed by Shanshan's progress. She (sorry if I am mistaken, seen Shanshan use 女性語 a number of times, so am assuming) has quite the grasp of the language for being at it for such a short while.
Shanshan; what program/school do you study at?
Tomorrow I'm going to Minoo to see the fall leaves.. dunno how you call it in English, but yeah. Should be fairly pretty. I will also take a bunch of photos to use as references and textures (seeing how I'm an environment artist..), so if I manage to take a nice 'artistic' photo (not quite the kind of photos I'm aiming for, though..) I will post it here tomorrow! (in about 12 hours from now, anyway).
Good night!
箕面の紅葉見に行ってくる！かなり綺麗だって聞いたんだけど、日曜日だし、場所も有名なんで結構混んでそう・・げぇー
Good night!
箕面の紅葉見に行ってくる！かなり綺麗だって聞いたんだけど、日曜日だし、場所も有名なんで結構混んでそう・・げぇー
shanshan310
Member
I was planning on doing N2 but I got talked out of it at the last minute. I think I could probably get by in the kanji section but my vocab is still pretty small. I think it's better to go for N3 and pass than N2 and probably fail.
Just at my local university. ^^
louis89
Member
Thought N1 went reasonably well, given that I only started studying last night. I was thinking I'd fail when I was doing the first parts but beyond that I thought it was okay. Listening was definitely the easiest section. On the reading there was this big passage about the nature of the scientific method and why it's insufficient when it comes to analysing human behaviour or some shit, which halfway through became so high level I had no clue what it was talking about. =/
My friend was helping with the administration of the test, and she told me some stories. Apparently some dude in the next room was coughing all throughout the tests, and some of the students around him complained and had a retest. Also, apparently there was a girl who went to get something to eat between the tests and came back late and wasn't allowed in for the listening section... not sure I have much sympathy to be honest.
My friend was helping with the administration of the test, and she told me some stories. Apparently some dude in the next room was coughing all throughout the tests, and some of the students around him complained and had a retest. Also, apparently there was a girl who went to get something to eat between the tests and came back late and wasn't allowed in for the listening section... not sure I have much sympathy to be honest.
shanshan310
Member
Eh, everyone knows how strict the JLPT rules are. They read out that they can't let you in pretty much everytime they read something out. Also BRING FOOD. I don't know about where where you did it, but mine was at a university - on a sunday, in the holidays. Nothing was open. You should probably expect that kind of thing...
I haven't heard of a re-test. Is the exam the same?
Listening is always the easiest section Though, kanji for N3 was pretty easy. I basically went as well as I thought I would. I got kinda tired half way through listening though, and zoned out. That was a bad idea... Still feeling confident though.
I haven't heard of a re-test. Is the exam the same?
Listening is always the easiest section
Though, kanji for N3 was pretty easy. I basically went as well as I thought I would. I got kinda tired half way through listening though, and zoned out. That was a bad idea... Still feeling confident though.Incredibly late but.. in Spain we eat break like in Japan you eat rice. Hell, in my house (though I don't live there anymore) we always have bread (not the white bread like in Japan, but the normal 'french bread' that you guys call.. even if it's not only french
I believe it's pretty much the same in Portugal, Italy and France.
そういえば、日本でそういうパンかなり高いんだよね・・食パンも高いし！コンビニとかで売ってる６枚入りの食パンでも、２００円ぐらいするんだけど、あれはスペインだったら同じ値段で１５枚入りぐらい買える！（本当は３０枚入りで、薄切りになってる
画像見つけたけど、解像度でかいからリンクだけ貼っとくー
http://www.vivereamadrid.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/panbimbo02b.jpg
でかｗ。
スーパーとかでそれと6枚入りのを並べといたとして、例え値段が同じだったとしてもみんな6枚入りの方を買うと思う。もちろん人種的な特徴によるところも大きいんだろうけど、根本的に日本人は食う量が少ないから小さいんだろうなあ。
今日天気良かったね。自分は皇居周辺ぶらついたけど、紅葉というには程遠かったｗ。今年は暖かいからなあ。
shanshan310
Member
Incredibly late but.. in Spain we eat break like in Japan you eat rice. Hell, in my house (though I don't live there anymore) we always have bread (not the white bread like in Japan, but the normal 'french bread' that you guys call.. even if it's not only french
I believe it's pretty much the same in Portugal, Italy and France.
そういえば、日本でそういうパンかなり高いんだよね・・食パンも高いし！コンビニとかで売ってる６枚入りの食パンでも、２００円ぐらいするんだけど、あれはスペインだったら同じ値段で１５枚入りぐらい買える！（本当は３０枚入りで、薄切りになってる
画像見つけたけど、解像度でかいからリンクだけ貼っとくー
http://www.vivereamadrid.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/panbimbo02b.jpg
分からないけど、It might be that more traditional "western countries" in Europe eat bread that way (and since Pan came from Portugal the Japanese got that impression), but since places like the US and Australia are built on immigration from a lot of different regions our diet more reflects that かな。。。
Also the shokupan I bought in Japan was really terrible in quality. Tasted very processed and sweet compared to the freshly baked bread I buy at home, but maybe the Japanese prefer it that way. Of course, you can get nice bread in Japan too but its insanely expensive like you say :'(
Listening for N2 was the easiest part too, I think. I expected it to be for me anyway, been watching anime without subs for the past year so I'm pretty used to listening by now. Vocabulary and grammar were so-so, think I did okay there, but the reading was too much for me. Not even sure about a lot of the answers I did properly, and then I ran out of time and just did random guesses too.
今日曇ってなくて、ほんとに良かった！
箕面でも、滝とかあるんだけどあまりにも人多すぎて、勝尾寺ってとこに行ってきたー（そこも箕面の一部だけどね）。すごくキレイやったけどだるまさんがめちゃくちゃ多かったｗ
そのときにツイッターにのせた写真はこれ↓
(took it with my iPhone 4s)
Yeah, your average sliced bread they sell on convenience stores and the like is kinda bad. I mean, it's alright for toasts or hot sandwiches (I make TONS of those), but eating it like that with some butter and jam, or a normal sandwich is kinda.. gross. But I found this one brand they sell near my supermarket that's pretty good though! Not home-made, but as you said, those are way too expensive and it's not like they have some amazing taste, just a bit above average
Same goes for normal bread (what they call here 'french bread'). In many places they sell it and it's already kinda like a gum, hard to bite and overall not that good, but that's because of the humidity so there's not much they can do about it.
shanshan310
Member
お疲れライス～
Podcasts: I think I've mentioned before, but 池袋なお is my favourite podcast ^^ you can find it on itunes, even outside Japan.
Podcasts: I think I've mentioned before, but 池袋なお is my favourite podcast ^^ you can find it on itunes, even outside Japan.
Necromanti
Member
Random question, but how long has everyone here been studying and practicing Japanese for? This thread makes me realize that my journey with Japanese has only just begun. :d (And will never end, obviously.)
KidA Seven
Member
Shouta
Member
Since 7th grade and I've lived in Japan the last 3.5 years, heh.
shanshan310
Member
2 years in high school + semester in Tokyo + 1 and a half years in Uni.
It really isn't about the time though, its the effort put in. One of the guys who posted in here I remember had been studying 3 years and took N1, whereas I'd been studying 4 years and went for N3. Being in the country really helps as well, or at least having some kind of practise speaking with friends etc.
There are approximately 2000 characters you need to know ;p
But there are only 100 core characters plus two or three elementary characters you have to master. The rest of them are just variations. Once you master the core & elementary characters, you can guess the meanings and pronunciations of those derivative characters, I guess...feel better?
Necromanti
Member
答えてくれてありがとう。
I'm in the same situation as you, KidA. Hopefully, I have the motivation to improve myself.
Seems most of y'all have been studying Japanese for a while, at least.
Just wanted to see how early people have started taking up Japanese. I'm jealous of everyone who took Japanese in middle to high school. I learned French, Spanish, and Arabic, but never Japanese.
I'll admit that I've been pretty lazy when it comes to my Japanese, since the 1.2 years of classes I have taken so far have been easy. Luckily enough, the grammar and kanji I have learned stays put in my head, whether I want it to or not. It's pretty shocking how you can progress in ways you would never expect.
Kanji initially scared me, and now I know 200-300 (including their readings, compound words, meanings, how to write them, etc.). Feels good knowing I could beat a Japanesefirst grader kindergartener in certain things.
While I can manipulate grammar to a decent degree, there is still so much that I am missing to even begin understanding common, day-to-day material (excluding all the kanji I don't know). On the bright side, a lot of the grammar I don't understand is just a different form of what I already know. It's pretty mind-blowing and exciting when those connections are made.
I'm in the same situation as you, KidA. Hopefully, I have the motivation to improve myself.
Seems most of y'all have been studying Japanese for a while, at least.
Oh, yeah, I know.
Just wanted to see how early people have started taking up Japanese. I'm jealous of everyone who took Japanese in middle to high school. I learned French, Spanish, and Arabic, but never Japanese. I'll admit that I've been pretty lazy when it comes to my Japanese, since the 1.2 years of classes I have taken so far have been easy. Luckily enough, the grammar and kanji I have learned stays put in my head, whether I want it to or not. It's pretty shocking how you can progress in ways you would never expect.
Kanji initially scared me, and now I know 200-300 (including their readings, compound words, meanings, how to write them, etc.). Feels good knowing I could beat a Japanese
While I can manipulate grammar to a decent degree, there is still so much that I am missing to even begin understanding common, day-to-day material (excluding all the kanji I don't know). On the bright side, a lot of the grammar I don't understand is just a different form of what I already know. It's pretty mind-blowing and exciting when those connections are made.
Bomber Bob
Banned
wow I totally forgot about the JLPT! I'll make a reminder for the summer session
shanshan310
Member
This thread really does help inspire me of trying to finally get off my butt and learn Japanese. I have been saying I want to learn it for over a decade, and I just haven't done it. Always thinking I need some class, or expensive way of going about it.
Even though it's not the new year yet, I have made a resolution. I am going to practice everyday and I will learn at least a basic understanding of reading, writing and speaking Japanese. I won't learn anything unless I do it, and I will do my best to try.
I find a lot of the information useful in the OT, but I guess if I were to ask for any advice, what do you guys think is the best place to start with trying to teach myself? Like, should I try to start with the writing/reading of kanji, hiragana, or katakana? or should I try to familiarize myself with words and how they're pronounced?
Any advice you folks could give to a beginner would be greatly appreciated.
Even though it's not the new year yet, I have made a resolution. I am going to practice everyday and I will learn at least a basic understanding of reading, writing and speaking Japanese. I won't learn anything unless I do it, and I will do my best to try.
I find a lot of the information useful in the OT, but I guess if I were to ask for any advice, what do you guys think is the best place to start with trying to teach myself? Like, should I try to start with the writing/reading of kanji, hiragana, or katakana? or should I try to familiarize myself with words and how they're pronounced?
Any advice you folks could give to a beginner would be greatly appreciated.
I studied Japanese for two years (well, attended a language school for two years), but I've lived in Japan for around 5 years and 9 months (I came on April 2006). The rest of the time (3 years) I was studying design so I didn't practice any sort of Japanese other than daily conversations, emails and, well, using the software in Japanese
Because of that, there are still a lot of Kanji that I can't write by myself (got too used to the kanji conversion on PCs), but thankfully I don't have all that many issues when talking with someone
And because my first language is Spanish and the pronunciation is fairly close to Japanese, when I talk via phone nobody suspects I'm a foreigner until I tell them my name shanshan310
Member
Oooh, see if someone can get you a Japanese book for christmas
I would say learn the kana before you do anything else, but do focus a bit more on grammar and vocab before you get down to kanji.
Since 1997
I basically did a double major in CS and Japanese - I missed the Japanese major part by two classes (Japanese religion and something else) but I got married while still in college and was too worried about making funds to care.
I'm lucky enough to do work where I can fully utilize my knowledge of Japanese language and computer science at the same time - positions like these are rare.
Fun factoid because I'm bored at work: Did you know that new kanji are 'invented' all the time? Basically some person will come out of nowhere and say "this is my name. I don't see it in this computer program, but this is how you write it". There is a problem in adding new kanji because it costs the government and technology sector a lot of money to have to support them.
Being fluent in Japanese is not really that helpful financially unless you have something else to back it up - like being uber fluent in Japanese AND being well versed in medical stuff or a lawyer or something like that. Normal translation jobs are outsourced to India or China, teachers in Japan come and go like crazy. The expectation at most workplaces is that foreign workers will not stay forever, we have seen that first hand with a mass exodus of foreigners after the earthquake. So in general, you are almost at a disadvantage working in Japan and you need skills to make up for that. I would recommend working in Japan only after you have something that other Japanese workers do not have and you can play that card as part of your career.
Thanks! I'll check it out.
私の日本語は少し下手ですね。ー＿ー
Bomber Bob
Banned
Where do you work? In Japan?
I think people can create new pronunciations for their name but not actually invent new kanjis
louis89
Member
Started in summer 2008, so around 3 and a half years. At university I was studying computer science, and so I was self studying Japanese as a hobby up until three months ago, when after I graduated I came to Tokyo to study abroad for a year (read: screw around and have fun in Japan until I start a software job back in London). I would describe myself as fluent and can read newspapers, but I have a long way to go until I'm as good as I want to be. I took N1 on Sunday.
Note: it's actually 池袋なう. And if you're anything like me, when you first listen to it, you will understand pretty much nothing of what they're saying. But I listened to it anyway, over and over and over again, and a couple of years later, as if by magic, I can now understand pretty much 100% of it. It's great for getting your speaking style to sound like an actual Japanese guy's, and as a source of jokes and conversation material.
You should listen to the people here with more experience than me, but as a fellow beginner in Japanese (I started in summer) I did 5 lessons of Genki (great book, it explains everything and you don't need a teacher, and the audio lessons are good as well), but then I was a bit angry about the kanji. I could not remember the few I saw in the vocabulary lessons, and I really wanted to learn them in the long run. So after a bit of research, I decided to start with Heisig's book, and there I am, at the kanji number 920 after 2 months. Also, this website has been a tremendous help: http://kanji.koohii.com/ .
I think Heisig is great if the following apply:
-You only care about the long run (this is very important, since Heisig does not teach the kanji in a useful order)
-You are not going to go to Japanese classes
-You can keep motivated by learning how to write the characters and a general sense of what they mean (not actually what they really mean).
-You are committed to do something about japanese every day, but you don't have a lot of time to spare. (If you really like the method, you can study a lot if you want as well. It's very flexible).
For me it has worked because Genki lessons are a bit long so I had to study 2 hours or more in order to achieve something. The kanjis with Heisig are easier to study, since you can stop whenever you want, but you have to keep reviewing them EVERY day (Use Anki for that, or the webpage I linked earlier that also helps with the kanji stories). And also, I've been a bit like you, I wanted to learn Japanese for a long time. Once I know all the 2042 kanji of RTK1, or maybe a bit less, I will be already commited to learn japanese, so I won't be able to stop. (I don't know if that makes any sense, but it makes sense to me). I'm also a very bookish person, so the kanjis are a big motivation for me.
If you want a more traditional (and helpful in the short run, and probably the same in the long run) study, just go with Genki or something similar, and when you should have learned about 100 kanji pick a JLPT kanji book or something. And in any case, study the kana FIRST. That's a must, it will help you a lot in the short/long run.
bigmit3737
Member
What is the dictionary form of the verb at the end of the sentence?
"まずいよ。また遅刻だ！！はやくも遅刻魔の異名をとってしまう"?
Thanks.
"まずいよ。また遅刻だ！！はやくも遅刻魔の異名をとってしまう"?
Thanks.
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