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[Kilrogg]

Not a class you should be attending then.

Well, having good grades in those classes allowed me to get a scholarship and go study in Japan for a year, so...

 

[KtSlime]

I suspect あなた has more to with them not knowing that you can actually use people's names like you would use "you" and/or not knowing stuff like そっち. From my experience the Japanese almost never use あなた except when they don't know your name. Sadly you won't learn that kind of stuff in a classroom, I don't know why.

The point is not to tell people to use the polite form because they should be using it, but precisely because it's much less common and natural than the plain form. Consequently, it's much easier to switch from polite to plain than plain to polite.

To be fair, it is taught in JSL (and to not over rely on わたし either), however I'm not sure it was worth the torture from the rest of the program. 笑...泣...

 

[Kilrogg]

What's JSL?

 

[KtSlime]

What's JSL?

Jorden/Noda's program/book/class from the 80's. Japanese The Spoke Language. Heavy on linguistics, but poor on writing - and hasn't been updated in years. It was unfortunately the program my university used. There are things I liked about it, however it is quite a different experience than Genki or one of the more common programs schools use.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0300038348/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It is pretty much despised, with the exception of a few brainwashed people such as the head of my university's Japanese department, who so happened to be a student of Jorden. She adopts the philosophy that if she isn't failing half her students she isn't doing her job.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

LeroyPantwether pretty much covered it in his reply:



The only other case I can think of, which you will rarely encounter at your level (if ever) is old style writing. Decades ago あ　い　う　え　お didn't actually exist, and は　ひ　ふ　へ　ほ were used instead (but would be pronounced あいうえお anyway). For instance there's this Ghibli movie that's called 「おもひでぽろぽろ」 which you should actually pronounce 「おもいでぽろぽろ」, but I suppose they chose the old spelling for style. You needn't worry about this stuff though, it's very rare. Just thought it'd be a nice tidbit for you. Kana spelling has evolved a bit over the years.

Hmm... this isn't quite accurate, actually. It's not that あいうえお didn't exist, it's just that the rules for using them were a bit different.

A rule of thumb is that, if it was the first sound in a word, you would use あいうえお, but if it was any subsequent sound in the word, you would use はひふへほ. For example, 「いただく」 would use an 「い」 but something like 「こい」 would be written as 「こひ」, or something like 「かまえて」 as 「かまへて」. There were exceptions, though. For example, adjectives still would always end with an 「い」 (「青い」、「赤い」、「美しい&#12301, etc.

The pronunciation of 「は・ひ・ふ・へ・ほ」 in the middle of or at the end of a word was 「ワ・イ・ウ・エ・オ」, though.

There are all sorts of other "spelling" differences between kobun and modern, streamlined Japanese.

 

[Kilrogg]

Hmm... this isn't quite accurate, actually. It's not that あいうえお didn't exist, it's just that the rules for using them were a bit different.

A rule of thumb is that, if it was the first sound in a word, you would use あいうえお, but if it was any subsequent sound in the word, you would use はひふへほ. For example, 「いただく」 would use an 「い」 but something like 「こい」 would be written as 「こひ」, or something like 「かまえて」 as 「かまへて」. There were exceptions, though. For example, adjectives still would always end with an 「い」 (「青い」、「赤い」、「美しい&#12301, etc.

The pronunciation of 「は・ひ・ふ・へ・ほ」 in the middle of or at the end of a word was 「ワ・イ・ウ・エ・オ」, though.

There are all sorts of other "spelling" differences between kobun and modern, streamlined Japanese.

Ah, yes, that makes much more sense that way, thanks for pointing it out.

You're right that there are other differences, but I felt that going into too much detail would only overwhelm Leroy.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

-all this conversation is insightful and very helpful.. thanks everyone.....

- as for the formal japanese, I used that in my writing because it is all I have been taught thus far.

- as for あなた... my teacher had stressed that it is almost never used by Japanese people. Which made me curious because in one of my emails from Yae, she said something like....あなたの英語はほとんど合っています(^^)上手です！

* * so I wonder , do people use あなたの...such and such... ? or is it still better to use someones name.

* also and maybe you guys can not answer this, but why would she compliment my English.. ...or could it be perhaps she is referring to the English corrections I made for her on a previous email.?.....hmmm it is from an old email but this has always puzzled me

 

[Deleted member 17706]

-all this conversation is insightful and very helpful.. thanks everyone.....

- as for the formal japanese, I used that in my writing because it is all I have been taught thus far.

- as for あなた... my teacher had stressed that it is almost never used by Japanese people. Which made me curious because in one of my emails from Yae, she said something like....あなたの英語はほとんど合っています(^^)上手です！

* * so I wonder , do people use あなたの...such and such... ? or is it still better to use someones name.

* also and maybe you guys can not answer this, but why would she compliment my English.. ...or could it be perhaps she is referring to the English corrections I made for her on a previous email.?.....hmmm it is from an old email but this has always puzzled me

I imagine 英語 was a typo and she really meant 日本語. Who knows, though.

It's best to just to not use あなた unless the person is a complete stranger and you don't know their name. Addressing her by her name +さん would be much more natural. Don't overdo it, though. As has been pointed out, if it's even somewhat obvious from the context of the sentence that you are referring to her, you don't need to state her name or any "you" equivalent.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Well, this is promising. For someone who isn't even an N5, my Japanese relatives say I speak Japanese like a native. Said my pronunciation and composition--while in need of more practice, I admit--are better than pretty much any American they've heard (they live in Tokyo).

Feels good man

 

[LeroyPantwether]

Hello I wrote another email, just seeing if anyone would take a look at it. I will have my penpal make detailed corrctions. But , if anyone has any suggestions or advice that would be greatly appreciated. ( Specifically "ついて" ... I am not sure if I used that expression correctly) . .... Also I feel like I changed topics frequently in this, thus it was hard for me to know when to omit subjects. Also, I am not sure if I used 私には correctly or not.


こんにちはやえさん。いかがお過ごしですか。 メールありがとうございました。とても親切なアドバイスがもらいました……ありがとうございました！ 写真ありがとうございました。

御宅はきれいです！…とても！。裏庭ははきれいていいです。やえさんはラッキーです！

やえさんはいい自転車があります！自転車を漕ぐのは楽しいですね。私は自転車がありません。だけど、一つがありたいです。

私には私の新しい大学です。クラスに行くのが大好きです。大学でたくさんの友達にあいたいです。32,000人がいます。たくさんの日本の学生がいません。大阪の大学にアメリカの学生がいますか？

本を読みますか？ 好きな本はなんですか？好きなさっかは誰ですか？コミックブックを読みますか？雑誌を？………私は小説を読むのが大好きです。たまにコミックブックを読みます。

すみません…。一段と日本の音楽を聞きたいですよ。日本の映画？…日本のテレビ？アドバイスをください。？？？？何をみますか？

週末は同居人とバスケットボールをしました。バスケットボールをすることがすきです。来週は夏のクラスや日本のスーパーに行きます。日本の食べ物をかいます。来週の週末はスカイプでやえさんを話したいですよ。 私にはときどき私達の日本語の会話がわかりません。リスニングのれんしゅうはむずかしです。

やえさんは多くの国にいったことがあります。ついてフランスを聞きたいですよ。ついてホンコンやイギリスやハワイを聞きたいです。もっとけいいをください。面白いです。 とてもうらやましいです。…。私は来年の夏日本にいきたいです。大阪城を見たいです。

 

[Kilrogg]

I can't take a look at the whole thing, but about ついて : I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that word. What is it supposed to mean in those sentences?

 

[LeroyPantwether]

I can't take a look at the whole thing, but about ついて : I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that word. What is it supposed to mean in those sentences?

I was trying to use it like the preposition: About or Reguarding....

I was trying to say:

"Yae, you have been to many countries! I want to hear about France. And about Hong Kong and the UK and Guam and Hawaii".

....or something like that

 

[KtSlime]

I was trying to use it like the preposition: About or Reguarding....

I was trying to say:

I want to hear about France.

フランスについて聞きたい, however if she went on a trip, you could フランスに行ったときを聞きたい, or フランスの旅行を聞きたい as well. The first one kind of sounds like you have heard nothing about France and would like to learn about it (to me). I might also soften the question by using ん.

 

[Necromanti]

Just something that stuck out to me immediately:

だけど、一つがありたいです。

I would change the "aritai" to "hoshii", which you use if you desire an object/noun. Also, if the counter for bicycles are the same as cars, then it would be "一台". Although I'd probably avoid counters and just say I want a bike (or "一台 no jitensha" maybe, but eh).

'An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese' pretty much continues on from where Genki leaves you. It's what a lot of universities seem to move on to after Genki 2.

My personal preference for intermediate textbook is Tobira: Gateway to Advanced Japanese (edit: cheaper here). I have less experience with it but found what I read to be more engaging than 'Integrated Approach', which was ok but I wish had more chapters using real Japanese texts for the reading exercises. I believe Tobira also covers a good bit more grammar.

I'll note that neither book has much in the way of workbook style exercises compared to the Genki series, and some people complain about that. Personally I didn't care about that as I mostly value textbooks for the structured reading exercises and progression in difficulty, which I found massively improved my reading comprehension.

ありがとうございました。

答えなくてすみませんでした。夏が来たら、その教科書を読むのは本当に楽しみにしています。

 

[LeroyPantwether]

フランスについて聞きたい, however if she went on a trip, you could フランスに行ったときを聞きたい, or フランスの旅行を聞きたい as well. The first one kind of sounds like you have heard nothing about France and would like to learn about it (to me). I might also soften the question by using ん.

- thank you! Your examples were very helpful. I ended up using your second and third examples...like this.....やえさんは多くの国にいったことがあります。フランスの旅行を聞きたいです。ホンコンやイギリスに行ったときを聞きたいです。

Just something that stuck out to me immediately:

I would change the "aritai" to "hoshii", which you use if you desire an object/noun. Also, if the counter for bicycles are the same as cars, then it would be "一台". Although I'd probably avoid counters and just say I want a bike (or "一台 no jitensha" maybe, but eh).


。

- thanks！, given the context of the sentence i simply used ....自転車が欲しいです。

 

[Gacha-pin]

ついて is postposition You just add ついて to the last of a word or phrase or sentence.

I want to hear about France (in general).
"フランス"について聞きたい。
I want to hear about your trip to France.
"フランス旅行"について聞きたい。
I want to hear more about it.
"それ"についてもっと聞きたい。
I want to hear more about what you said yesterday.
"昨日言ったこと"についてもっと聞きたい。

As for 私には,

私にはときどき私達の日本語の会話がわかりません is completely fine.
But 私には私の新しい大学です is not good. What do you want to say?

 

[LeroyPantwether]

ついて is postposition You just add ついて to the last of a word or phrase or sentence.



As for 私には,

私にはときどき私達の日本語の会話がわかりません is completely fine.
But 私には私の新しい大学です is not good. What do you want to say?

as for. 私には私の新しい大学です. I was trying to say my school is new to me. but thinking about it that doesnt really make sense in English either.. hmmmmm. can i just say 私は新子学生です。that sort of has the same meaning ? " or maybe I will just delete that entirely, as it is redundant non important info...

 

[Necromanti]

- thanks！, given the context of the sentence i simply used ....自転車が欲しいです。

Sounds good.

Also, I would change:

リスニングのれんしゅうはむずかしです。

to something like...

聞くれんしゅうはむずかしいです。

(Although in your case, it might be "聞き取り" that you find to be difficult.)

 

[Jintor]

Oh god, it's Japanese skit-writing time :|

 

[Gacha-pin]

as for. 私には私の新しい大学です. I was trying to say my school is new to me. but thinking about it that doesnt really make sense in English either.. hmmmmm. can i just say 私は新子学生です。that sort of has the same meaning ? " or maybe I will just delete that entirely, as it is redundant non important info...

Yes, I think it's better. 私は新入生です。

 

[Etrian Oddity]

You fellas know a good message board to practice Japanese? Or a good beginner-level site or blog I can start reading?

I'm already getting super-rusty on my Japanese this summer, and I can't afford to. I need practice!

 

[shanshan310]

Oh god, it's Japanese skit-writing time :|

I just did the same thing for Korean What kinda skit??

 

[bigmit3737]

What's the word to use for something that is "easily replaceable"?
This worker is easily replaceable.

Thanks.

 

[Kilrogg]

What's the word to use for something that is "easily replaceable"?
This worker is easily replaceable.

Thanks.

If we're talking people, ALC suggests stuff like 「の代わりは何人もいる」, as in "there are tons of people who could his job", but this is a specific request, so you'd better wait and see what others (especially Gatcha-pin) think.

 

[DGRE]

Hey guys,

I'm taking the N4 JLPT test on July 1st. Could you guys recommend some resources for studying for the test? I'm a little bit nervous. I haven't been very diligent in my studies post-college. I am pretty rusty, but I think I can get up to speed by then.


Any tips would be really appreciated.

 

[Cheesemeister]

Hey guys,

I'm taking the N4 JLPT test on July 1st. Could you guys recommend some resources for studying for the test? I'm a little bit nervous. I haven't been very diligent in my studies post-college. I am pretty rusty, but I think I can get up to speed by then.


Any tips would be really appreciated.

http://thejapanesepage.com/node/kanji/kanjirandom.htm

 

[midonnay]

Hey guys,

I'm taking the N4 JLPT test on July 1st. Could you guys recommend some resources for studying for the test? I'm a little bit nervous. I haven't been very diligent in my studies post-college. I am pretty rusty, but I think I can get up to speed by then.


Any tips would be really appreciated.

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/grammar/

http://dev.jgram.org/pages/viewList.php

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/kanji/

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/vocab/

but some of the content is stolen from the Kanzen master series of books

 

[DGRE]

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/grammar/

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/kanji/

http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/vocab/

but some of the content is stolen from the Kanzen master series of books

This looks amazing. Thanks so much. Anyone else signed up for the JLPT this summer?

 

[bigmit3737]

If we're talking people, ALC suggests stuff like 「の代わりは何人もいる」, as in "there are tons of people who could his job", but this is a specific request, so you'd better wait and see what others (especially Gatcha-pin) think.

Thank you.

 

[bigmit3737]

The word "accept", as in "I accept all of your flaws."

 

[Boogiepop]

Are there any good guides to using a multiradical search on common components of kanji that aren't considered radicals themselves? I've been using tangorin+my decent language skills yet mediocre kanji skills to force my way through translating a book for practice (though I've only just started trying this), and this is proving a thorn in my side. For example, kanji that look like they have this in them 成 were proving a pain for a while. And now I'm just having an impossible time looking for a kanji where I can't quite figure out how to search for the shape that looks like the top part of 愛.

Mostly, I seem to suck with radicals and how to see them out of more complex shapes.

Edit: I'm getting really frustrated by this one. It looks a lot like this: 曖, but with the 心 part replaced with a straight line that the bottom part continues up through.
EditEdit: Got it. Figured out how I was searching wrong.

 

[midonnay]

I'm not sure if JWPCE works on windows 7 but it has a kanji search that is pretty easy to use with radicals or stroke count.

Never really bothered learning any hardcopy kanji lookup method (although Jack halpern's SKIP is idiot proof) because JWPCE has the page numbers to the three major english kanji dictionaries built in.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not sure if JWPCE works on windows 7 but it has a kanji search that is pretty easy to use with radicals or stroke count.

The IME that comes with Windows has a radical search.

I use WWWJDIC: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1R

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

So after doing some research I'm planning on buying both Rembering the Kanji 1 and 3 this week.

So far my biggest issue is remembering how kanji is written. The definitions and pronunciation haven't been a problem at all for me, it's really just that.

I know the two books don't contain all kanji but I think it'll give me a big boost if I can master them all.


I can also properly use Heisig's method instead of my butchered version of it.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

hello, quick question

こんにちは and こんにちわ

What is the difference, is there one? I only ask because my penpal writes こんにちわ…is this common?,,,is this something girls do? is this a chatspeak type of thing? or do some people just write わ not は

 

[Adent]

I've been trying to learn Japanese for years now. I'm listening to Pimsleur lessons on my way too and from work for the last couple of weeks. My question about Pimsleur that at the end of a lesson they tell you to start from track two the next day. Does that mean start from lesson two? I'm not sure because I have all the lessons as mp3 files. It doesn't say anything about repeating lessons in the instructions.

Also I want to learn Hiragana and Katakana again. I still know some. Should I just drill by writing them over and over again? I got the Heisig Kana book but it doesn't really explain how your supposed to study with it. So how should I learn Kana again? I downloaded Anki. What Kana file should I use with that?

 

[shanshan310]

能力試験二級を取りたいけど、出来るかどうかわからない。今大学で勉強してるから、他の勉強が必要ない？どんな本とかがいいの？一番心配してることは言語。

hello, quick question

こんにちは and こんにちわ

What is the difference, is there one? I only ask because my penpal writes こんにちわ…is this common?,,,is this something girls do? is this a chatspeak type of thing? or do some people just write わ not は

I've never seen it written with a わ before. If you look at the kanji, it literally written like "this day" (今日&#12399, with the は acting as a particle. So it doesnt make sense to have it written as a わ. My only guess is that she thinks it might make it easier to read, or she thinks it's cute.

 

[RoyalFool]

My question about Pimsleur that at the end of a lesson they tell you to start from track two the next day. Does that mean start from lesson two? I'm not sure because I have all the lessons as mp3 files. It doesn't say anything about repeating lessons in the instructions.

I vaguely recall it having cultural notes which were on a different tape, so it always reminded you to put the main lesson tape back in again afterwards.

 

[Adent]

I vaguely recall it having cultural notes which were on a different tape, so it always reminded you to put the main lesson tape back in again afterwards.

Yeah your totally right. There is a second track for each lesson that is about culture.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

I've never seen it written with a わ before. If you look at the kanji, it literally written like "this day" (今日&#12399, with the は acting as a particle. So it doesnt make sense to have it written as a わ. My only guess is that she thinks it might make it easier to read, or she thinks it's cute.

Thanks...., in this context , cute/comfort seems logical.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I have a question for Anki users. I want to use it for practicing Remember the Kanji stuff but it doesn't look like there's a way to set it to it only goes through the cards that I know. As in, there's no way to alter a setting like "only use cards 1 to **" or anything like that.

Right now I don't want to use it since it will just be giving me a bunch I haven't even seen yet.

Can anyone help with this?

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

The IME that comes with Windows has a radical search.

I use WWWJDIC: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1R

Jisho.org has bigger radicals, automatically shows matches as you click, and highlights jouyou kanji.

http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/

Seeing screens of JWPCE takes me back though, haha.

So now that July approacheth, are any GAFfers going for JLPT N1 this year? I have been studying like crazy for the past five months. Partially to have a goal to motivate me to actually IMPROVE my Japanese rather than RELY on it, and partially because with a new baby arriving back in December it's one of the only hobbies I have that I can just pick up and do pretty much whenever.

I'm taking it in Atlanta in December.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I have a question for Anki users. I want to use it for practicing Remember the Kanji stuff but it doesn't look like there's a way to set it to it only goes through the cards that I know. As in, there's no way to alter a setting like "only use cards 1 to **" or anything like that.

Right now I don't want to use it since it will just be giving me a bunch I haven't even seen yet.

Can anyone help with this?

Use the suspend feature.

 

[bigmit3737]

The word "accept", as in "I accept all of your flaws."

Any help with this?

 

[Gacha-pin]

あなたの欠点を受け入れる. The similar expression is あなたの欠点を大目に見る

 

[bigmit3737]

あなたの欠点を受け入れる. The similar expression is あなたの欠点を大目に見る

Thank　you　so　much。

 

[Charoncaori]

Jorden/Noda's program/book/class from the 80's. Japanese The Spoke Language. Heavy on linguistics, but poor on writing - and hasn't been updated in years. It was unfortunately the program my university used. There are things I liked about it, however it is quite a different experience than Genki or one of the more common programs schools use.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0300038348/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It is pretty much despised, with the exception of a few brainwashed people such as the head of my university's Japanese department, who so happened to be a student of Jorden. She adopts the philosophy that if she isn't failing half her students she isn't doing her job.

I was fortunate enough to attend an intensive Japanese course for 6 months that used this book series. It took a lot of getting used to but the course drastically improved my speaking abilities. That said, the course was 7 hours a day 5 days a week and we had a lot of supplemental instruction, but the books are very good if you are spending large amounts of time with them. I think using them for Japanese 101 would be a mistake.

I've also gotten too rusty to remember a lot of what I learned. ;__;

 

[louis89]

hello, quick question

こんにちは and こんにちわ

What is the difference, is there one? I only ask because my penpal writes こんにちわ…is this common?,,,is this something girls do? is this a chatspeak type of thing? or do some people just write わ not は

It's a common thing to do on the Internet and in text messages.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Can someone help explain attaching 合う to a ~masu stem? I've not seen anything like "tabeau" or such, instead only seeing use of いっしょに "issho ni tabemashou." What are the grammatical rules for this verb suffix?

 

[KTallguy]

合う is う ending, so 合います。
If you want the ましょう form, it's 合いましょう。

う becomes い in ます forms, え in the command or in can/can't form.
In て form, う needs a small っ, so it's 合っています。

Examples:

&#21512;&#12358; &#65288;&#12354;&#12358;&#65289;<- to meet, fit
&#20309;&#12293;&#12364;&#21512;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377; <- Something is fitting (?).
&#12381;&#12398;&#12471;&#12515;&#12484;&#12364;&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12395;&#20284;&#21512;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12290; <- That shirt suits you.
&#21512;&#12356;&#12414;&#12375;&#12423;&#12358; ... this doesn't really translate.

I wonder if you're looking for &#20250;&#12358;, which means to meet, as in meeting someone.

Edit: Other examples of the &#12358; verb ending.

&#32299;&#12358; &#65288;&#12396;&#12358;&#65289;<- to sew
&#31169;&#12399;&#12371;&#12398;&#12471;&#12515;&#12484;&#12434;&#32299;&#12360;&#12427; <- I can sew this shirt.
&#19968;&#32210;&#12395;&#30528;&#29289;&#12434;&#32299;&#12356;&#12414;&#12375;&#12423;&#12358;&#12290; <- Let's sew a quilt together.
&#12381;&#12398;&#24125;&#23376;&#12434;&#19968;&#20154;&#12391;&#32299;&#12387;&#12383;&#12424;&#12290; <- I sewed that hat all by myself.

&#21560;&#12358; &#65288;&#12377;&#12358;&#65289;<- to smoke
&#12479;&#12496;&#12467;&#12434;&#21560;&#12356;&#12414;&#12377;&#12363;&#65311;<- do you smoke (cigarettes)?
&#22823;&#27671;&#27738;&#26579;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12383;&#12417;&#12289;&#31169;&#12383;&#12385;&#12364;&#12525;&#12469;&#12531;&#12476;&#12523;&#12473;&#12391;&#21560;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#31354;&#27671;&#12399;&#12385;&#12423;&#12387;&#12392;&#27738;&#12356;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290; <- Because of the air pollution, the air we breathe in LA is a little dirty.
&#21250;&#12356;&#12364;&#23244;&#12356;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;&#12289;&#12479;&#12496;&#12467;&#12434;&#21560;&#12360;&#12394;&#12356;&#12288;<- I can't smoke cigarettes because I hate the smell.
&#12356;&#12388;&#12363;&#12395;&#27700;&#12479;&#12496;&#12467;&#12434;&#21560;&#12356;&#12414;&#12375;&#12423;&#12358;&#12363;&#65311; <- Let's smoke hookah sometime?