The Bitter Tears Of The American Christian Super Majority - Aljazeera Opinion Article

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This thread/article is basically doing the same thing that it's first two complaints about Christians are doing: drumming up a false sense of persecution to create a backlash.

There is no Christian super majority because Christians represent too diverse a world view across the United States. Your average Christian, in their day to day life and day to day beliefs, is more similar to your average non-theist / non-religious in their day to day life and day to day beliefs than they are to the atypical, Christian zealout that might fake persecution. Almost all zealouts feel persecuted. The zealous atheists are constantly harping about the special treatment of believers, at the cost to atheists. This extends far beyond religion as well, it's essentially in the makeup of being zealous. If you are a zealous believer in almost anything, you have a higher likelihood to feel that you are being persecuted -- hell, go over to the gaming side and read about pro-Xbox One or pro-PS4 fans who feel that they are being treated unfairly on this forum.

I'm a non-theist, non-religious, but if you believe the argument that the OP is making, and you feel like you're a persecuted non-Christian because of it, then you're a hypocrite.
 
christo_zpsd58619eb.png

Dammit GAF.

I'm aware this is a totally true claim for many other countries. Not so much America.
 
The Albatross said:
This thread/article is basically doing the same thing that it's first two complaints about Christians are doing: drumming up a false sense of persecution to create a backlash.

There is no Christian super majority because Christians represent too diverse a world view across the United States. Your average Christian, in their day to day life and day to day beliefs, is more similar to your average non-theist / non-religious in their day to day life and day to day beliefs than they are to the atypical, Christian zealout that might fake persecution.

I'm a non-theist, non-religious, but if you believe the argument that the OP is making, and you feel like you're a persecuted non-Christian because of it, then you're a hypocrite.
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The article doesn't say anything about non-Christians being persecuted. I have no idea where you got that.
 
commedieu said:
This shattered my image of the world. I always thought Buddhists were some how different than the rest of us.. but yeah. People are people. Reinforced with how America treated the Irish, the racism i saw their mirrored the racism for blacks, like myself. It just seems that one group doesn't want to get along with another group is the human condition.
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As someone who's part American Indian/Native American who lives in Oklahoma, I can tell you I've seen as much bigotry between different tribes as I have of whites against blacks.
 
Red Mage said:
Yep, all we need to do is look to where they're the majority, and it's a truly beneficial system. Just ask Sri Lanka or Burma...

Not hating on Buddhism, just pointing out that people are people.
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You think that there wouldn't be violence in those places if everybody had the same religion?

Religion is used as an excuse for hatred. Religion does not cause hatred.
 
Valhelm said:
You think that there wouldn't be violence in those places if everybody had the same religion?

Religion is used as an excuse for hatred. Religion does not cause hatred.
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I think you'd have to make the case for how a current conflict that is religious in nature would exist without religion, instead of asking us to assume it would.

Also, your second statement isn't always true. There are plenty of people who hate certain things or people because of religious scripture (gays, gay marriage, blasphemers, other religions, atheists, etc) , and don't have a reason to in absence of it. You can go into a small town in the south and find people who hate a lot of things they have zero personal exposure to, but have been taught to hate or fear by their Sunday sermon. If they haven't been instructed directly to hate, the religion itself invites it.

I kind of support what you're saying to an extent, that religion is often use as a justification for existing hate. But religion is not innocent of causing hatred. Besides being a source of some hatred, it is also a powerful ally of hatred because it justifies fear of "the other" through an absolute moral authority who is right about everything, even if one's own sense of morality does not agree.
 
commedieu said:
This shattered my image of the world. I always thought Buddhists were some how different than the rest of us.. but yeah. People are people. Reinforced with how America treated the Irish, the racism i saw their mirrored the racism for blacks, like myself. It just seems that one group doesn't want to get along with another group is the human condition.
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Pretty sure the Khmer Rouge were Buddhist too
 
LaserBuddha said:
I think you'd have to make the case for how a current conflict that is religious in nature would exist without religion, instead of asking us to assume it would.

Also, your second statement isn't always true. There are plenty of people who hate certain things or people because of religious scripture (gays, gay marriage, blasphemers, other religions, atheists, etc) , and don't have a reason to in absence of it. You can go into a small town in the south and find people who hate a lot of things they have zero personal exposure to, but have been taught to hate or fear by their Sunday sermon. If they haven't been instructed directly to hate, the religion itself invites it.

I kind of support what you're saying to an extent, that religion is often use as a justification for existing hate. But religion is not innocent of causing hatred. Besides being a source of some hatred, it is also a powerful ally of hatred because it justifies fear of "the other" through an absolute moral authority who is right about everything, even if one's own sense of morality does not agree.
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I'm quite certain that Westboro-types use religion to justify their hatred. They don't hate because they're religious.

There are huge problems with religious fundamentalism and the culture associated with religion (at times), but religion itself isn't harmful at all.
 
Valhelm said:
You think that there wouldn't be violence in those places if everybody had the same religion?

Religion is used as an excuse for hatred. Religion does not cause hatred.
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I never said that it was. I'm not arguing that religion causes hatred, I'm arguing that Buddhism has just as many problems as the "Big Three Abrahamic Religions." I don't know the other two to make the same argument, but if I did, I'm sure we'd find pretty much the same thing with them.
 
Pizarro said:
Pretty sure the Khmer Rouge were Buddhist too
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WTF?!?

The Khmer Rouge were Communists, not Buddhists. Even if you're totally ignorant of history, the hint is right in the name (rouge)... that makes a little more sense than Buddhists who are all about attaining enlightenment committing genocide against everyone with an education, no?
 
Pizarro said:
Pretty sure the Khmer Rouge were Buddhist too
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Er, you might want to read up a little more on them. They were resetting society back to square one in their sick demented ideals. They were destroying a people's complete culture which included religion, they destroyed temples, books, and murdered monks in mass!
 
Valhelm said:
I'm quite certain that Westboro-types use religion to justify their hatred. They don't hate because they're religious.

There are huge problems with religious fundamentalism and the culture associated with religion (at times), but religion itself isn't harmful at all.
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You should read the bible and quran, because you are wrong.
 
caesar said:
You should read the bible and quran, because you are wrong.
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Neither the Bible or the Quran are hateful. Both of them preach very, very, very positive messages, but zealots are drawn to the extreme parts.

Groups like the WBC chose to protest the fact that the homosexuality restrictions are ignored, as opposed to protesting how people don't love their enemies, help the poor, or protect other followers of God.
 
I wish more people would take an antagonistic view of religion in the US. It is ludicrous the things they can get away with here. There is no reason why they shouldn't pay taxes considering how much money a lot of "churches" are pilfering from people who don't know any better. Their protected status is what gives them so much political power and I am all for changing that.
 
The Albatross said:
This thread/article is basically doing the same thing that it's first two complaints about Christians are doing: drumming up a false sense of persecution to create a backlash.

There is no Christian super majority because Christians represent too diverse a world view across the United States. Your average Christian, in their day to day life and day to day beliefs, is more similar to your average non-theist / non-religious in their day to day life and day to day beliefs than they are to the atypical, Christian zealout that might fake persecution. Almost all zealouts feel persecuted. The zealous atheists are constantly harping about the special treatment of believers, at the cost to atheists. This extends far beyond religion as well, it's essentially in the makeup of being zealous. If you are a zealous believer in almost anything, you have a higher likelihood to feel that you are being persecuted -- hell, go over to the gaming side and read about pro-Xbox One or pro-PS4 fans who feel that they are being treated unfairly on this forum.

I'm a non-theist, non-religious, but if you believe the argument that the OP is making, and you feel like you're a persecuted non-Christian because of it, then you're a hypocrite.
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I was in churches for two thirds of my life. A lot. This message of persecution or ... the world is changing and not for the better as a Christian was preached plenty.The majority of non denominational congregations share these views. Normal folks, otherwise. They aren't zealots. The world is going to hell in a hand basket because of an ever creeping godlessness coming in. Schools, laws, lawmakers, the once righteous falling away. It's just all part of the end times at hand. Fox News represents a view catered towards these people and it's big business. I wouldn't be so quick to sweep the sentiment under the rug.
 
royalan said:
I was raised in the church, and even when I was a little kid I was a little skeptical of the whole persecution aspect of it. Even in a city like Los Angeles, everyone I knew was Christian. I kept wondering who these heathens who'd lambast me for believing in Jesus actually were.

Then my grandmother told me they were all in San Francisco.
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Even in a place like SF, people arent exactly gonna slash your tires for being Christian.

Wasnt there a small period of time when the Romans persecuted Christians (not talking about Jews here)? Thats the only one I can think of that was widespread.
 
Valhelm said:
Neither the Bible or the Quran are hateful. Both of them preach very, very, very positive messages, but zealots are drawn to the extreme parts.

Groups like the WBC chose to protest the fact that the homosexuality restrictions are ignored, as opposed to protesting how people don't love their enemies, help the poor, or protect other followers of God.
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You can't just emphasize the positive parts to the exclusion of the negative. Religion isn't the sole cause of human conflict but it's definitely one of them.
 
DUFFMCWALIN said:
This country is made up of dumbfucks.
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I'm paraphrasing a Dylan Moran joke here, but the dumb people in the US aren't necessarily any dumber than the dumb people in other countries around the world; their just far better at sounding dumb.

But yes, statistically we probably hold the record for largest population of dumbfucks.
 
Sub_Level said:
Even in a place like SF, people arent exactly gonna slash your tires for being Christian.

Wasnt there a small period of time when the Romans persecuted Christians (not talking about Jews here)? Thats the only one I can think of that was widespread.
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Depends on what you mean by "small period of time." From the first century until very early into the fourth, they were regularly persecuted. Early on it was by the Jewish populations in various cities, but soon came to include Romans as well. Only for about 85 or so years of that time period was the persecution coming from the Emperor on down, but local governors, etc. persecuted Christians as well, off and on. The worst was under Diocletian and Galerius.

In Islamic states, even though Christians were supposed to be protected under the Pact of Umar, it wasn't unheard of for anti-Christian Pogroms to pop up. In fact, one such resulted in the abandonment of the ancient city of Assur.

Then there was Japan, where persecution happened off and on until they finally banned Christianity and executed somewhere around 37,000 in the aftermath of the Shimabara Rebellion.

There's other examples, including the French Revolution, Armenian Genocide, and the persecution of Christians in the USSR, Mexico, and Madagascar.
 
Valhelm said:
Neither the Bible or the Quran are hateful. Both of them preach very, very, very positive messages, but zealots are drawn to the extreme parts.

Groups like the WBC chose to protest the fact that the homosexuality restrictions are ignored, as opposed to protesting how people don't love their enemies, help the poor, or protect other followers of God.
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Both preach some positive messages and both preach some negative messages.
 
I'd just like to say that as a Christian I know persecution happens to some degree in America. It may not be on the level of what happens in Nigeria (where people are killed) or the Middle East but it happens. Which is okay because the Bible says Christians that are persecuted are blessed (you're not living like Jesus if you aren't called out on your life every once in a while). There are several court cases where religious persecution happens in America, such as universities. It's definitely nothing dangerous or anything, just mocking or general discrimination and things like that. Anyway, just saying that it isn't non-existent.

Back to the topic though, it's hilarious people thought that was real.
 
The Lamp said:
I'd just like to say that as a Christian I know persecution happens to some degree in America. It may not be on the level of what happens in Nigeria (where people are killed) or the Middle East but it happens. Which is okay because the Bible says Christians that are persecuted are blessed (you're not living like Jesus if you aren't called out on your life every once in a while). There are several court cases where religious persecution happens in America, such as universities. It's definitely nothing dangerous or anything, just mocking or general discrimination and things like that. Anyway, just saying that it isn't non-existent.

Back to the topic though, it's hilarious people thought that was real.
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Which court cases are you referring to?
 
The Lamp said:
I'd just like to say that as a Christian I know persecution happens to some degree in America. It may not be on the level of what happens in Nigeria (where people are killed) or the Middle East but it happens. Which is okay because the Bible says Christians that are persecuted are blessed (you're not living like Jesus if you aren't called out on your life every once in a while). There are several court cases where religious persecution happens in America, such as universities. It's definitely nothing dangerous or anything, just mocking or general discrimination and things like that. Anyway, just saying that it isn't non-existent.

Back to the topic though, it's hilarious people thought that was real.
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You might get made fun of, but Christianity enjoys a lot of privilege in the US. I don't think there is any institutional persecution. I
 
Valhelm said:
Neither the Bible or the Quran are hateful. Both of them preach very, very, very positive messages, but zealots are drawn to the extreme parts.

Groups like the WBC chose to protest the fact that the homosexuality restrictions are ignored, as opposed to protesting how people don't love their enemies, help the poor, or protect other followers of God.
Click to expand...

Significant portions of the bible are very hateful. The bible is a collection of books written by different authors with conflicting messages.
 
The Lamp said:
I'd just like to say that as a Christian I know persecution happens to some degree in America. It may not be on the level of what happens in Nigeria (where people are killed) or the Middle East but it happens. Which is okay because the Bible says Christians that are persecuted are blessed (you're not living like Jesus if you aren't called out on your life every once in a while). There are several court cases where religious persecution happens in America, such as universities. It's definitely nothing dangerous or anything, just mocking or general discrimination and things like that. Anyway, just saying that it isn't non-existent.

Back to the topic though, it's hilarious people thought that was real.
Click to expand...

You're not making much sense. People thought what was real? How have universities persecuted Christians in the U.S.?
 
The Lamp said:
I'd just like to say that as a Christian I know persecution happens to some degree in America. It may not be on the level of what happens in Nigeria (where people are killed) or the Middle East but it happens. Which is okay because the Bible says Christians that are persecuted are blessed (you're not living like Jesus if you aren't called out on your life every once in a while). There are several court cases where religious persecution happens in America, such as universities. It's definitely nothing dangerous or anything, just mocking or general discrimination and things like that. Anyway, just saying that it isn't non-existent.

Back to the topic though, it's hilarious people thought that was real.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I can't believe this. I was a Christian throughout my childhood, and not once did my faith ever feel threatened by outside forces. There are many places in the US where non-Christian people of faith are looked down upon, for example Islam in Tennessee, where there is actual persecution.

It's also pretty much mandatory for political leaders (especially the President) to be Christian. Christianity is by-and-large the most privileged religion in the US.

I'd like to know what court cases you are referring to.
 
Dude Abides said:
Which court cases are you referring to?
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Probably stuff like this:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/n...taliation-against-christian-professor-116209/

Poltergust said:
Sorry, but I can't believe this. I was a Christian throughout my childhood, and not once did my faith ever feel threatened by outside forces. There are many places in the US where non-Christian people of faith are looked down upon, for example Islam in Tennessee, where there is actual persecution.

It's also pretty much mandatory for political leaders (especially the President) to be Christian. Christianity is by-and-large the most privileged religion in the US.

I'd like to know what court cases you are referring to.
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Just because it hasn't happened to you or someone you know, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I once had a boss who would make it a point to mock Christianity every time any time I came around and looked for excuses to yell at me in front of other employees. I didn't try to sue the guy or say I was persecuted, but that is discrimination in the form of a hostile work-enviroment. I spoke with his supervisor and never had another problem.
 
LaserBuddha said:
Also, your second statement isn't always true. There are plenty of people who hate certain things or people because of religious scripture (gays, gay marriage, blasphemers, other religions, atheists, etc) , and don't have a reason to in absence of it. You can go into a small town in the south and find people who hate a lot of things they have zero personal exposure to, but have been taught to hate or fear by their Sunday sermon. If they haven't been instructed directly to hate, the religion itself invites it.
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Yup, I fully supported hateful views and policy due to my religious beliefs when I was an evangelical. Being an easy going guy, I didn't like the way some people communicated their opposition to gay marriage, abortion, etc. But I was fully convinced homosexuality was wrong. Beyond what I'd been taught from pastors and Christian writers I'd been exposed to, I had no problem whatsoever with homosexuals, abortions, or other religions. For the most part my Christian friends and I (a bunch of idealistic teenagers) loved homosexual people as much as anyone else, but viewed it as something they'd been "tricked" into by Satan. It was a temptation they had succumbed to similar to how many other people would be tempted to watch porn, drink, have pre-marital sex, commit adultery etc. Basically, Satan was identifying a weakness in you and using it to pull you away from God. This sort of convoluted reasoning is how many of us were able to rectify the seeming contradiction between the Golden Rule and the many more hateful sounding portions of the bible. Believing the bible is holy had a very significant impact on what I supported.
 
onadesertedisland said:
You might get made fun of, but Christianity enjoys a lot of privilege in the US. I don't think there is any institutional persecution. I
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I acknowledge that we get privilege like any majority gets.

Poltergust said:
Sorry, but I can't believe this. I was a Christian throughout my childhood, and not once did my faith ever feel threatened by outside forces. There are many places in the US where non-Christian people of faith are looked down upon, for example Islam in Tennessee, where there is actual persecution.

It's also pretty much mandatory for political leaders (especially the President) to be Christian. Christianity is by-and-large the most privileged religion in the US.

I'd like to know what court cases you are referring to.
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Then don't believe it.

You probably weren't belittled for being Christian because you were a kid.

BajiBoxer said:
You're not making much sense. People thought what was real? How have universities persecuted Christians in the U.S.?
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I didn't mean universities themselves institutionally do it. I mean these sorts of problems have happened at universities.

By real, I meant this: "but far more people who saw the YouTube video (24,082 views), in Ohio and elsewhere, took this media stunt as reality — confirmation of their wildest fears about a government clampdown on Christianity."

By the way, even though the OP mentions God's Not Dead, I thought it was a cruddy movie.
 
The Lamp said:
I acknowledge that we get privilege like any majority gets.



Then don't believe it.

You probably weren't belittled for being Christian because you were a kid.



I didn't mean universities themselves institutionally do it. I mean these sorts of problems have happened at universities.

By real, I meant this: "but far more people who saw the YouTube video (24,082 views), in Ohio and elsewhere, took this media stunt as reality — confirmation of their wildest fears about a government clampdown on Christianity."

By the way, even though the OP mentions God's Not Dead, I thought it was a cruddy movie.
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Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. It's true, that on an individual level you will find someone from pretty much any group that has been discriminated against or treated poorly by another individual from another group.
 
As a strong Christian, I definitely feel persecuted so I keep my beliefs on the down low. There was a low point even here on GAF for a bit where I didn't feel comfortable expressing myself for fear of mocking or even banning, without even throwing hate bombs or anything mean spirited and only expressing what I believed. It has gotten better here, but it still isn't improving elsewhere. I truly believe the outspoken, ignorant or hateful minority gets the front page to represent all modern Christians, and I don't have a chance against pre-made conceptions against Christians in general.
 
Dude Abides said:
Judging by his complaint, it sounds like the substance of the claims is really that he was discriminated against for writing right-wing polemics, rather than being Christian.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1679029...gton - Amended Complaint without exhibits.pdf

Nice mention that one of his adversaries is Jewish (para. 94).
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Can't view it at work, so I don't know the context. If the people in charge of promotions are Jewish and dislike Right-Wing Christians, then it's a valid argument, otherwise I don't know why they'd bring it up.
 
Major Williams said:
As a strong Christian, I definitely feel persecuted so I keep my beliefs on the down low. There was a low point even here on GAF for a bit where I didn't feel comfortable expressing myself for fear of mocking or even banning, without even throwing hate bombs or anything mean spirited and only expressing what I believed. It has gotten better here, but it still isn't improving elsewhere. I truly believe the outspoken, ignorant or hateful minority gets the front page to represent all modern Christians, and I don't have a chance against pre-made conceptions against Christians in general.
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Personally, I can empathize with this. Sorry you feel that way sometimes.
 
Major Williams said:
As a strong Christian, I definitely feel persecuted so I keep my beliefs on the down low. There was a low point even here on GAF for a bit where I didn't feel comfortable expressing myself for fear of mocking or even banning, without even throwing hate bombs or anything mean spirited and only expressing what I believed. It has gotten better here, but it still isn't improving elsewhere. I truly believe the outspoken, ignorant or hateful minority gets the front page to represent all modern Christians, and I don't have a chance against pre-made conceptions against Christians in general.
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Have you faced legal or physical threats for your beliefs?
 
onadesertedisland said:
You might get made fun of, but Christianity enjoys a lot of privilege in the US. I don't think there is any institutional persecution. I
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Just because Christians often enjoy privilege doesn't mean there isn't persecution. I would a absolutely expect persecution of Christians and scientific fields and academia.

Muslims absolutely face more persecution, as do athiests.
 
Red Mage said:
Can't view it at work, so I don't know the context. If the people in charge of promotions are Jewish and dislike Right-Wing Christians, then it's a valid argument, otherwise I don't know why they'd bring it up.
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They'd bring it up because they want the court to think that because she's Jewish she must not like Christians. Pretty shabby but par for the course for these right-wing advocacy groups.
 
Oh man so they're throwing themselves a pity-party for not getting absolute carte blanche to fuck others over anymore? Lol OK good luck playing the victim.
 
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