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The Black Culture Thread |OT6| Monica Enjoys Being Black
- Thread starter BHZ Mayor
- Start date
Incredibles and Ratatouille are probably the 2 I can watch anytime easily. Love both of them.
Definitely among Pixar's best.
Ratatouille had an amazing message.
Manmademan
Member
Man. Metal Gear.
From what I understand Kojima's been trying to end that shit since 2, or even MGS1, but Konami just won't let him.
The thing is, as the story get's more fucked up, the core mechanics are still improving with each game. I'm really excited to see Phantom Pain's open-ended simulation style game design.
And yeah, the franchise is facing a real crisis in tone. The reason MGS's story was praised back in 1998 is because of what other console game storylines were like at the time. It was like introducing a Japanese seinen manga to consumers who only had the 80's G.I. Joe cartoon. MGS was pretty much the only game around even attempting to talk about nuclear proliferation and anti-war themes, and even the more recent MGS games are still ridiculously well-researched in their settings. One thing I enjoyed about Peace Walker was how educational it actually was on the subject of mid-20th century Latin American politics. I wish some of those blockbuster military shooters were filled with half as much real information as a Metal Gear game. But as other video games started to feel less and less like cartoons, Metal Gear has more or less maintained the storyline of a manga. I don't think Kojima can do that shit AND tackle the themes he seems to be trying to tackle with Phantom Pain. I've actually wondered to myself if it would be a good idea for the whole franchise to take on a story and visual style like Metal Gear Ac!d -- comic book-styled and not tied to a massive canon.
I find this is the case with just about every popular japanese game series over the last generation or two, it's not a problem exclusive to metal gear.
n00bsauce87
Member
Guess that would make him an ass man.
Japanese game writing is hilariously bad, it WTFs for all the wrong reason.
my sentiments exactly
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Japanese game writing is hilariously bad, it WTFs for all the wrong reason.
But its Japan. So automatically gets a pass from industry hipsters and sections of GAF
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
This applies to movies and anime as well.Japanese game writing is hilariously bad, it WTFs for all the wrong reason.
but to be fair video game writing is bad in general. That's why I usually enjoy games with a silent protagonist the most.
Japanese game writing is hilariously bad, it WTFs for all the wrong reason.
I can't take that seriously from the person who literally purchased Hyperdimension Neptunia with his own personal funds in a public setting.
Japanese writing is just as hit or miss as Western. Biggest issue is that they don't know how to take control back from heads that want to pander to the 'people' that throw money at degenerate bullshit in droves.
This applies to movies and anime as well.
but to be fair video game writing is bad in general. That's why I usually enjoy games with a silent protagonist the most.
A silent protagonist is just as much of a copout as a created player who does GOOD or BAD.
I think the "why rape is hilarious" thread is also a good example of why "gotcha" threads need to go away too.
No need to bait people with thread titles like that when there's no punchline. The title alone probably damaged the quality of discussion in that thread more than anything. So many people posting before watching because they expect it to be a dumb joke.
It'd be a completely different thread if OP took 5 more minutes to make a real title and post some context
I agree, but it's also a good example of why people need to read and/or watch the OP before posting.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think the difference between japanese game writers and western ones is that alot of the crazy japanese games....aren't written by professional or dedicated writers. They're written by game designers. Hideo Kojima and Hideki Kamiya aren't professional writers. They're game designers.
and being game designers I think they write and create their universes to serve the game they want to make, vs coming up with the story and then making a game to tell the story, which is becoming more and more common in the west.
The Walking Dead, Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us are all games that feel like the gameplay just serves as a vehicle for the story. I think the opposite is true for games like Bayonetta and Metal Gear, where the stories and the game worlds are designed to serve and create context for the gameplay, the real focus of the games.
So I think it's unfair when people condescendingly generalize japanese game writing as crap, because I think it's just a difference of focus and philosophy more than anything. It'd be like criticizing The Walking Dead for not having any "gameplay". That's not the game it's trying to be.
and being game designers I think they write and create their universes to serve the game they want to make, vs coming up with the story and then making a game to tell the story, which is becoming more and more common in the west.
The Walking Dead, Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us are all games that feel like the gameplay just serves as a vehicle for the story. I think the opposite is true for games like Bayonetta and Metal Gear, where the stories and the game worlds are designed to serve and create context for the gameplay, the real focus of the games.
So I think it's unfair when people condescendingly generalize japanese game writing as crap, because I think it's just a difference of focus and philosophy more than anything. It'd be like criticizing The Walking Dead for not having any "gameplay". That's not the game it's trying to be.
Japanese game writing is hilariously bad, it WTFs for all the wrong reason.
Game writing in general is terrible.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
I can't take that seriously from the person who literally purchased Hyperdimension Neptunia with his own personal funds in a public setting.
Japanese writing is just as hit or miss as Western. Biggest issue is that they don't know how to take control back from heads that want to pander to the 'people' that throw money at degenerate bullshit in droves.
A silent protagonist is just as much of a copout as a created player who does GOOD or BAD.
Yeah I can see why some would think that. But I have such a vivid imagination that I find it more enjoyable when I can imprint my own motives etc. on a character.
I can't take that seriously from the person who literally purchased Hyperdimension Neptunia with his own personal funds in a public setting.
Japanese writing is just as hit or miss as Western. Biggest issue is that they don't know how to take control back from heads that want to pander to the 'people' that throw money at degenerate bullshit in droves.
A silent protagonist is just as much of a copout as a created player who does GOOD or BAD.
This made think about back when Street Fighter Alpha first came out and they ended putting Chun Li's outfit from SF2 in Alpha 2 to pander to the people who were complaining about her wearing pants. And that ass up pose for her fireball in Super smh. This type of shit has been going on in the industry for a long time.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I have to admit, rarely if ever does a Japanese game's wrtiting stand out to me unless it's bad, even if I'm playing in Japanese, but good English writing does. Like I really enjoyed dialogue in The Last of Us, GTAV, and even South Park. I tend to only think about gameplay when I'm playing Japanese games, including JRPGs.
MikeBreezy92
Member
GTAV had really good dialogue. Specially Lamar....that was monica....
GTAV had really good dialogue. Specially Lamar....that was monica....
dialogue was pretty natural. Except for Franklin's abuse of the word homie.
I think the difference between japanese game writers and western ones is that alot of the crazy japanese games....aren't written by professional or dedicated writers. They're written by game designers. Hideo Kojima and Hideki Kamiya aren't professional writers. They're game designers.
and being game designers I think they write and create their universes to serve the game they want to make, vs coming up with the story and then making a game to tell the story, which is becoming more and more common in the west.
The Walking Dead, Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us are all games that feel like the gameplay just serves as a vehicle for the story. I think the opposite is true for games like Bayonetta and Metal Gear, where the stories and the game worlds are designed to serve and create context for the gameplay, the real focus of the games.
So I think it's unfair when people condescendingly generalize japanese game writing as crap, because I think it's just a difference of focus and philosophy more than anything. It'd be like criticizing The Walking Dead for not having any "gameplay". That's not the game it's trying to be.
I strongly disagree. If you're say a Japanese company whose titles are all character and story driven, you have no excuse to have a shit story. Gameplay taking precedent isn't really an excuse here because quite honestly the gameplay for these titles are very static, sometimes even archaic. Having good gameplay and and stories are not mutually exclusive, and it doesn't matter if it's Japan or the West honestly.
edit: that said I don't demand great stories of all games, but character driven titles and rpg's should probably take more effort than a fighting game.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
I can't take that seriously from the person who literally purchased Hyperdimension Neptunia with his own personal funds in a public setting.
Japanese writing is just as hit or miss as Western. Biggest issue is that they don't know how to take control back from heads that want to pander to the 'people' that throw money at degenerate bullshit in droves.
A silent protagonist is just as much of a copout as a created player who does GOOD or BAD.
All of this honestly. We even do the same pandering shit: only difference is that the women are all older.
I can't take that seriously from the person who literally purchased Hyperdimension Neptunia with his own personal funds in a public setting.
Japanese writing is just as hit or miss as Western. Biggest issue is that they don't know how to take control back from heads that want to pander to the 'people' that throw money at degenerate bullshit in droves.
A silent protagonist is just as much of a copout as a created player who does GOOD or BAD.
Whats that got to do with my point? Western games are trope ridden and usually very by the numbers. Japanese game writing is like it is written by a 14 year old goth kid listening to my chemical romance. It thinks it is a lot smarter than it really is.
Japanese writing is best when it just says fuck it, and embrace the goofiness. Or in a very low key setting with a limited amount of characters.
Whats that got to do with my point? Western games are trope ridden and usually very by the numbers. Japanese game writing is like it is written by a 14 year old goth kid listening to my chemical romance. It thinks it is a lot smarter than it really is.
Japanese writing is best when it just says fuck it, and embrace the goofiness. Or in a very low key setting with a limited amount of characters.
ala bayonetta, a game I still take issue with, but can't deny it's awesomeness. It embraces it's absurdness.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
All of this honestly. We even do the same pandering shit: only difference is that the women are all older.
Pandering isn't exclusive to sexual content either. Violence and gore in particular is a huge way that games pander to western audiences. Especially the US.
So much so that even certain japanese games are made to be more violent and bloody when released in the US, and people get excited about that.
I'm sure some people outside of our culture view that obsession with violence similarly to how we view typical fanservice in Japan.
I strongly disagree. If you're say a Japanese company whose titles are all character and story driven, you have no excuse to have a shit story. Gameplay taking precedent isn't really an excuse here because quite honestly the gameplay for these titles are very static, sometimes even archaic. Having good gameplay and and stories are not mutually exclusive, and it doesn't matter if it's Japan or the West honestly.
edit: that said I don't demand great stories of all games, but character driven titles and rpg's should probably take more effort than a fighting game.
You probably shouldn't respond to that one line in my post out of context like that.
I mean what do you think about the rest of it? Like what I said about the difference in the importance of game writing between regions? In the west big games sometimes have dedicated writers that have come from outside the world of games.(written for TV or movies or whatever) while in japan it's still mostly the guys who were working on the game anyways.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Like western games aren't filled with that same nonsense. I'm not trying to cape for Japan, but that is bullshit. The only reason why it might appear different, is because we spend 20 milli on cutscenes to make them prettier.
Lone kids grows up to fight two Gods and rule the Universe.
Lone swordsman fights ten demons, kills six dragons, and rules the universe.
There is no difference.
Edit: Retro, great point about the violence difference.
To add-on: the sad thing is, some of the writers paid to work on vgs end up putting out their worst work: Whitta aside.
Lone kids grows up to fight two Gods and rule the Universe.
Lone swordsman fights ten demons, kills six dragons, and rules the universe.
There is no difference.
Edit: Retro, great point about the violence difference.
To add-on: the sad thing is, some of the writers paid to work on vgs end up putting out their worst work: Whitta aside.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Whats that got to do with my point? Western games are trope ridden and usually very by the numbers. Japanese game writing is like it is written by a 14 year old goth kid listening to my chemical romance. It thinks it is a lot smarter than it really is.
How jaded can you get?
tbf most things are shit
The first thing Wonder Woman fans have to learn to accept about the character.
tbf most things are shit
In philosophical terms I'm whats called a pessimist so I tend to agree. Some things are worse.
You probably shouldn't respond to that one line in my post out of context like that.
I mean what do you think about the rest of it? Like what I said about the difference in the importance of game writing between regions? In the west big games sometimes have dedicated writers that have come from outside the world of games.(written for TV or movies or whatever) while in japan it's still mostly the guys who were working on the game anyways.
Edit: I don't think that was out of context, It was the only thing in your post I took issue with because I don't think a game designers writing ability or lack thereof is really an excuse. You said you don't think it's fair to condescendingly generalize that Japanese games stories are crap, and said their fault lies in them not having real writers on their teams. If you think Japan typically doesn't utilize good writers then I think it's fair to generalize that they typically suck in this department. You echo one sentiment I've been trying to convey that companies like square should hire a novelist or a professional writer to help. But that's up to them, I'm not going to be less critical of them because they don't have a good storyteller on the team, that's on them. So I hope you see where my post is coming from, there was no other point of contention aside from what I bolded.
The first thing Wonder Woman fans have to learn to accept about the character.
shut up coon
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
3 words to the head, he was already dead
LAWD
LAWD
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Jesus. Hahaha
Byakuya769
Member
you dont say
Oh look, our own Count DookaSatch doing grammar checks.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
tbf most things are shit
The first thing Wonder Woman fans have to learn to accept about the character.
The WW slander...shit is too real...
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Slay taking them body blows.
Whats that got to do with my point? Western games are trope ridden and usually very by the numbers. Japanese game writing is like it is written by a 14 year old goth kid listening to my chemical romance. It thinks it is a lot smarter than it really is.
Japanese writing is best when it just says fuck it, and embrace the goofiness. Or in a very low key setting with a limited amount of characters.
I like how that first word cut you so deep that you couldn't get to the rest of the post homie
And to add a second note - there isn't any money in writing a good story anymore. West or East. Shit doesn't need a good story to sell.
Prototype Viktor
Member
All this talk of bad writing makes me want a Soap Opera mystery style game
Angelus Errare
Banned
I like how that first word cut you so deep that you couldn't get to the rest of the post homie
And to add a second note - there isn't any money in writing a good story anymore. West or East. Shit doesn't need a good story to sell.
Sad but true.
I find this is the case with just about every popular japanese game series over the last generation or two, it's not a problem exclusive to metal gear.
Yeah I was going to add that Resident Evil has the same problem. When RE1 and 2 first came out people saw the stories and settings in those games as very realistic compared to something like Contra. The fact that it was a zombie situation with a scientific cause instead of a supernatural one made RE feel more "plausible" than other games of its time. Compared to today's Michael Bay gaming however, RE is downright cartoonish.
This applies to movies and anime as well.
but to be fair video game writing is bad in general. That's why I usually enjoy games with a silent protagonist the most.
The main difference is that, as I understand it, most Japanese entertainment media in general tends to skew more surreal than western media. This goes all the way back to their opera at least. The acting is much more theatrical -- Japanese voice actors don't act the way they normally talk, and many of the storylines tend to use abstraction to get their point across, or take themselves slightly less seriously. It's not really a plus or a minus, it's just different. Japanese people just expect their entertainment to be less "real."
I think the difference between japanese game writers and western ones is that alot of the crazy japanese games....aren't written by professional or dedicated writers. They're written by game designers. Hideo Kojima and Hideki Kamiya aren't professional writers. They're game designers.
and being game designers I think they write and create their universes to serve the game they want to make, vs coming up with the story and then making a game to tell the story, which is becoming more and more common in the west.
The Walking Dead, Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us are all games that feel like the gameplay just serves as a vehicle for the story. I think the opposite is true for games like Bayonetta and Metal Gear, where the stories and the game worlds are designed to serve and create context for the gameplay, the real focus of the games.
So I think it's unfair when people condescendingly generalize japanese game writing as crap, because I think it's just a difference of focus and philosophy more than anything. It'd be like criticizing The Walking Dead for not having any "gameplay". That's not the game it's trying to be.
I think that's a mix throughout both westsern and Japanese game writing.
I would actually say Last of Us is sort of a halfway point. In Uncharted 3 they admitted they wrote the story around the scripted events. For TLOU it feels like they wrote a setting around the gameplay they came up with, then wrote deep characters into that. I could be wrong though.
Walking Dead is an adventure game, and that whole genre is about story first and foremost. But then you have other western games like Gears or DOOM where the whole story is just an absurd excuse for the gameplay. Honestly I prefer total fantasy shooters like those more than military shooters that actually try to look realistic despite their completely unrealistic gameplay. The setting of Gears frees up the variety of things they can do with the gameplay.
Japanese game writing is just as much of a mixup in that regard too. JRPGs these days almost seem totally in service to the story (while sticking to gameplay tropes codified in the 1980's) while action games are the opposite. Whether or not the story was written by actual writers affects a game to the degree of that story's importance in the game.
Lost of western games these days hire actual writers for the stories, but most of the time they' just write around gameplay and levels that are already in-place. I guess I would agree that Japanese developers less often hire actual writers for their stories, but it has happened. One of the best recent examples would probably be the Yakuza games. I think the first two were written by an actual Japanese crime novelist.
Professor Beef
Banned
*looks at kingdom hearts
FUCK
Devolution
Member
Child bride defense force yucko.
Child bride defense force yucko.
More like "Let the Iraqis do whatever the fuck they want" "Anyone want to go back? No? Okay" and "#democracy"
Devolution
Member
More like "Let the Iraqis do whatever the fuck they want" "Anyone want to go back? No? Okay" and "#democracy"
No, there's an actual child bride defense in there Dy.
/slap
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=106338890&postcount=124
TheKaeptain
Banned
No, there's an actual child bride defense in there Dy.
/slap
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=106338890&postcount=124
Cops need to raid that motherfuckers house.