Support NeoGAF

[FlyinJ]

The little bastard just wouldn't die.


Scamps in Oblivion are 'roided up. I don't remember them being so tough in Morrowind.

The actually are roided up. Roided up to match whatever your level is.

 

[Fifty]

Due to the just-mentioned rubberband enemies (matching your level) I've been bitchslapped to the point of frustration in some recent battles and I just created a new character. I'm taking a break 8 hours in from my thief and giving a straight up orc warrior a shot.

 

[FlyinJ]

I just tried a few other quests, and they all seem to have scaled to my level.

Is this the case for the entire game? Because if it is, I don't really see any point in leveling at all. I mean, why bother becoming some powerful hero guy if everything around you artificially becomes a powerful hero guy just like you?

 

[Unison]

Due to the just-mentioned rubberband enemies (matching your level) I've been bitchslapped to the point of frustration in some recent battles and I just created a new character. I'm taking a break 8 hours in from my thief and giving a straight up orc warrior a shot.

If you still have your save game from your old character, you might want to try bumping the difficulty down a little before you throw in the towel. I think it's hard to keep up w/ the enemies if you're a thief.

 

[Belfast]

I don't think they scale as much as you think. Surely, they get harder, but the gap between your level and theirs increases the higher you get. So you're still making progress, but its never really a cakewalk, either.

Least that's my theory.

 

[FlyinJ]

You could just never level up past level 1 as a thief, get a bunch of great equipment, and beat the game that way.

 

[Ben Sones]

I just tried a few other quests, and they all seem to have scaled to my level.

Is this the case for the entire game? Because if it is, I don't really see any point in leveling at all. I mean, why bother becoming some powerful hero guy if everything around you artificially becomes a powerful hero guy just like you?

Because the monsters don't scale infinitely; you'll eventually be strong enough to easily kill any goblin (for instance), even with level adjustments. OTOH, some of the tougher monsters are impossible for low-level characters to kill, even with level adjustments. The scaling just increases the "window" for when a given encounter is appropriate for your character.

 

[FlyinJ]

I don't think they scale as much as you think. Surely, they get harder, but the gap between your level and theirs increases the higher you get. So you're still making progress, but its never really a cakewalk, either.

Least that's my theory.

That wasn't the case in the Painter quest example I gave. The enemies were extremely hard at level 5 when I first tried it. I thought I'd go level up then come back and do it. I came back at level 12, and they were exactly as hard and tough as they were when I was level 5. There was no point at all in leveling up in that case.

EDIT: Also, in my other example, they actually changed out the monsters from when I first tried it and found it too hard, to completely different monsters that were much higher level when I came back to try it a few levels later.

 

[drohne]

basically every fight is a struggle for your life when you're a thief. :lol you really need to sneak carefully and open with that 6x backstab bonus. ranged destruction spells are helpful too. i'd probably have an easier time if i poisoned my arrows, but that doesn't seem like my style.

 

[Speevy]

In Morrowind, there was a single spell you could point at the ground repeatedly and make yourself more powerful than the final boss.

Bethesda has gone out of its way to make Oblivion consistently challenging, and hard to break. Put the difficulty on max if it bothers you.

 

[FlyinJ]

In Morrowind, there was a single spell you could point at the ground repeatedly and make yourself more powerful than the final boss.

Bethesda has gone out of its way to make Oblivion consistently challenging, and hard to break. Put the difficulty on max if it bothers you.

The difficulty isn't bothering me. It's the fact that the RPG progression seems useless. Sure, I could up the difficulty to maximum, but then everything would be twice as powerful as me, no matter how powerful I got. That's just stupid. I'm not playing Doom, I'm playing an RPG.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Maybe you should think outside of the usual generic RPG box, then?

 

[DopeyFish]

anyone know the best place to get bloodgrass? i remember seeing it once

 

[Belfast]

That wasn't the case in the Painter quest example I gave. The enemies were extremely hard at level 5 when I first tried it. I thought I'd go level up then come back and do it. I came back at level 12, and they were exactly as hard and tough as they were when I was level 5. There was no point at all in leveling up in that case.

EDIT: Also, in my other example, they actually changed out the monsters from when I first tried it and found it too hard, to completely different monsters that were much higher level when I came back to try it a few levels later.

Actually, the enemies are somewhat random. I've gone into a specific area of a dungeon a couple times (after dying) to find different Conjurers with different equipment and stuff on their bodies. You always kind of know what type of enemies will be in an area, but it's not always the same exact ones.

 

[Speevy]

The Elder Scrolls series has always been about making the world work for you.

In Oblivion:

You can't make it so you're unbeatable.

You can't make the game too easy.

Don't they call that balance?

Perhaps Bethesda smartly realized that to fulfill the promise of a dynamic, living world that your adversaries would need to adapt.

Now, just forget the fact that this still leaves all the non-combat skills like security, alchemy, speechcraft, and mercantilism, all of which can be increased to God levels.

Are you saying that you think you could have maximum strength and wouldn't be able to kill a wolf easily? That's just dumb. I've already noticed an improvement in my ability to fight from level 1 to level 3.

The system of this RPG was not determined by lazy programming, but rather through a careful attention to detail and consideration of the player.

You will not win this game on level 1.

 

[FlyinJ]

Actually, the enemies are somewhat random. I've gone into a specific area of a dungeon a couple times (after dying) to find different Conjurers with different equipment and stuff on their bodies. You always kind of know what type of enemies will be in an area, but it's not always the same exact ones.

Not in this case. I completed half the quest as level 5, and it was all one weak creature type, about 9 of them.

I came back 7 levels later, after finding it too hard and going out to level up before defeating it. As I fought through it again, all of the 9 monsters were changed to two different types of much higher level monsters. The previous, lower level monsters weren't in the area at all.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The Elder Scrolls series has always been about making the world work for you.

In Oblivion:

You can't make it so you're unbeatable.

You can't make the game too easy.

Don't they call that balance?

Perhaps Bethesda smartly realized that to fulfill the promise of a dynamic, living world that your adversaries would need to adapt.

Now, just forget the fact that this still leaves all the non-combat skills like security, alchemy, speechcraft, and mercantilism, all of which can be increased to God levels.

Are you saying that you think you could have maximum strength and wouldn't be able to kill a wolf easily? That's just dumb. I've already noticed an improvement in my ability to fight from level 1 to level 3.

The system of this RPG was not determined by lazy programming, but rather through a careful attention to detail and consideration of the player.

You will not win this game on level 1.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html

People beating Morrowind in under 15 minutes at level 1.

Try again.

Edit: Nevermind, you edited in "In Oblivion:"

 

[knitoe]

The difficulty isn't bothering me. It's the fact that the RPG progression seems useless. Sure, I could up the difficulty to maximum, but then everything would be twice as powerful as me, no matter how powerful I got. That's just stupid. I'm not playing Doom, I'm playing an RPG.

Wow. This does make it almost pointless to level. I have been too busy stealing stuff. Haven't really tried killing mobs, so didn't really notice monsters are always around / above your level. Earlier, tried some dungeon given to me early in the game, and wonder why were they are so hard. Now, I know why.

 

[Speevy]

http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html

People beating Morrowind in under 15 minutes at level 1.

Try again.

Edit: Nevermind, you edited in "In Oblivion:"

I thought that much was obvious from the thread title. I broke Morrowind, and I think Oblivion really puts that game to shame.

 

[FlyinJ]

The system of this RPG was not determined by lazy programming, but rather through a careful attention to detail and consideration of the player.

Unfortunately, I think they went too far overboard. I've put in about 20 hours so far, and I'm going to play more hoping I'm wrong.

An open-ended RPG is a progression of quests, some hard as hell and some easy. You design the game around giving the player enough to do at all levels of the experience. Say the player is a badass, and wants to tackle higher-level content. They can go and do that. Say you make something that is *just* too hard for the player to tackle when they come across it. The player can then decide whether to keep at it as hard as it is, or to go out and level up a bit, come back later and it will be easier for them.

Oblivion seems to throw all this out the window. Every mission is designed to be played at any time, no matter what level the player is. This makes all stat progression in the game meaningless, except for changing the way the monsters look when you start the quest. Sure, you can get better swords with +9 frost damage, but given the way the system is set up, you could go through the dungeon at level 5 with a +9 frost damage sword and it will be just as hard if you went through the dungeon at level 40 with a +9 frost damage sword.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I've since looked at three quests I'd abandoned to come back to after getting more powerful and they all have this happening in them.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Gladly the voices in the game are still in their original english so some Captain Picard love for me too , but they translated the emperor's voice for the intro movie (wonderful when it gives a sneak peek of Oblivion's gates opening) and they removed english subtitles from the game entirely not giving people an option to use them. This way not only the emperor has two voices in the game (KEEP GIVING US ORIGINAL VOICE OVERS , well at least Bethesda gave us the original voice-overs for the rest of the game), but WORST of all if you want subtitles (when people are far from you and you have set the effects and foot steps sound levels a bit too high it is not easy to make out the words they say... the crowded subway effect kind of) you have them in a different language than the voices: I LOVE having the original English Voice Overs, but I would want, for the times in which they are useful (as with above), English subtitles too... oh well, still AWESOME, AWESOME game (rats kind of kicked my ass in the prison... :shame).

 

[Vyse The Legend]

On that note, what level is everyone at currently?

 

[Belfast]

Unfortunately, I think they went too far overboard. I've put in about 20 hours so far, and I'm going to play more hoping I'm wrong.

An open-ended RPG is a progression of quests, some hard as hell and some easy. You design the game around giving the player enough to do at all levels of the experience. Say the player is a badass, and wants to tackle higher-level content. They can go and do that. Say you make something that is *just* too hard for the player to tackle when they come across it. The player can then decide whether to keep at it as hard as it is, or to go out and level up a bit, come back later and it will be easier for them.

Oblivion seems to throw all this out the window. Every mission is designed to be played at any time, no matter what level the player is. This makes all stat progression in the game meaningless, except for changing the way the monsters look when you start the quest. Sure, you can get better swords with +9 frost damage, but given the way the system is set up, you could go through the dungeon at level 5 with a +9 frost damage sword and it will be just as hard if you went through the dungeon at level 40 with a +9 frost damage sword.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I've since looked at three quests I'd abandoned to come back to after getting more powerful and they all have this happening in them.

Duh, things are going to get more powerful. But, seriously, you can't just do any quest. I've already encountered at least one that won't let you start it until Level 17.

 

[FlyinJ]

Duh, things are going to get more powerful. But, seriously, you can't just do any quest. I've already encountered at least one that won't let you start it until Level 17.

Ok, well, I really hope it is a more nuanced system than simply slapping whatever level you are into the monster's HP variable.

Well, back to the game with me. I'm level 12 now, by the way.

 

[Speevy]

That's definitely not true.

Vague, minor spoiler of a rather inconsequential quest

Spoiler

There was a quest in which I had to enter an arena and fight two minotaurs. All my weapons/items were gone, and my magic was silenced. I had only the weapons in a small container The only problem is that I didn't know about the container! So I went at the guys with fists, as hand-to-hand is one of my major skills. Needless to say, I was cut down in seconds. When I picked up one of the weapons, the fight became manageable, though not easy.

 

[FlyinJ]

That's definitely not true.

Vague, minor spoiler of a rather inconsequential quest

Well, that just means the monsters were balanced towards you having a weapon and not just fists. You could have been level 60 and had the exact same experience with the same quest.

It would be more telling if, for instance, you didn't know about the chest and beat them senseless with your fists because the quest was for a much lower level character. Or, vice versa, no matter what you did you couldn't defeat them.

 

[Pellham]

so has anyone else noticed that radiant AI isn't like it was hyped up to be? I mean it is still very cool, always awesome to see npcs talking to each other or guards attacking hostile npcs, but I don't see any of the stuff like in the E3 demo with the lady who took you to her bedroom to practice archery, eat, and cast a fireball on her dog. In fact, I haven't seen any pets at all, did they take dogs out of the game?

I do like how npcs will actually walk from town to town! That is very cool. Too bad they get killed easily by bandits if you follow them.

 

[Speevy]

The thing about this world is that all friendly NPC's are just the same as their enemy counterparts. They have certain strengths and weaknesses.

See how many guards you can put down. They're not unkillable. Go to the

Spoiler

Arcane University

and see what those characters can do to you.

 

[Robobandit]

There are people with dogs in Cheydinhal, hell.. one woman told me that she trained dogs and people, but preferred dogs.

Another lady was at the cathedral, but she had her two dogs with her and was telling me how much she loved them.

I honestly never expected npcs to do stuff like the AI example on a regular basis.. they purely exist so that the world doesn't feel like a barren place. I kind of like tailing npcs and seeing what they do, but I can't get one of them to do anything while I'm watching..

Spoiler

The quest called "unfair competition" or something similar in the Imperial City.. the local merchants suspect that a guy is selling stolen stuff and want me to follow him to find out for sure. I see him meeting with a guy that I think is a thief (he's an asshole, from my experience anyway) next to a hollow tree stump but I never find anything inside of it

 

[Belfast]

so has anyone else noticed that radiant AI isn't like it was hyped up to be? I mean it is still very cool, always awesome to see npcs talking to each other or guards attacking hostile npcs, but I don't see any of the stuff like in the E3 demo with the lady who took you to her bedroom to practice archery, eat, and cast a fireball on her dog. In fact, I haven't seen any pets at all, did they take dogs out of the game?

I do like how npcs will actually walk from town to town! That is very cool. Too bad they get killed easily by bandits if you follow them.

There's a dog lady in Chorrol who walks around town with two or three following her.

 

[Speevy]

I made a dead wolf dance with the game's drag/physics system.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

Anyone know where to pick up the "Shrine of Nocturnal" quest? (Thieves Guild quest perhaps?)

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned you could complete it to receive

Spoiler

a lockpick that is unbreakable

which I'd really like to have.

 

[FreakyFink]

I honestly never expected npcs to do stuff like the AI example on a regular basis.. they purely exist so that the world doesn't feel like a barren place. I kind of like tailing npcs and seeing what they do, but I can't get one of them to do anything while I'm watching..

Spoiler

The quest called "unfair competition" or something similar in the Imperial City.. the local merchants suspect that a guy is selling stolen stuff and want me to follow him to find out for sure. I see him meeting with a guy that I think is a thief (he's an asshole, from my experience anyway) next to a hollow tree stump but I never find anything inside of it

Spoiler

Are the two talking? If not, you need to get closer to them to activate their conversation. (Lame, I know, considering the quest is passed off as if it has a sneaking objective.) If they are talking, your quest info should have updated telling you to follow the other shady character.

 

[rocksolidaudio]

There are people with dogs in Cheydinhal, hell.. one woman told me that she trained dogs and people, but preferred dogs.

Another lady was at the cathedral, but she had her two dogs with her and was telling me how much she loved them.

I honestly never expected npcs to do stuff like the AI example on a regular basis.. they purely exist so that the world doesn't feel like a barren place. I kind of like tailing npcs and seeing what they do, but I can't get one of them to do anything while I'm watching..

Spoiler

The quest called "unfair competition" or something similar in the Imperial City.. the local merchants suspect that a guy is selling stolen stuff and want me to follow him to find out for sure. I see him meeting with a guy that I think is a thief (he's an asshole, from my experience anyway) next to a hollow tree stump but I never find anything inside of it

walk right up close to them while they're talking and it will activate a cutscene of sorts.

 

[FlyinJ]

I just read on another forum that not only are monsters rubberbanded to your level on all the quests, but all the loot is as well.

So, you'll never find some awesome powerful loot in a dungeon. It's all set to whatever level you currently are. For instance, I'm level 12 now, and every quest has dwarven armor in it. Even for quests I picked up when I was level 2 and the loot was at that point chain.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

man this game just pissed me off! im doing a mission for the dark brotherhood. guy tells me to go to the sewers and break into the prison to kill this old dude. anyhow, i pretty much get to the end of the sewers, all i need to do is pick the lock. guess what? 13 tries isn't enough, and i run out of lock picks. fucking bullshit dude. now i have to go ALLLLLLLL the way back, and possibly find a shop or something where i can buy some lockpicks. growl

 

[FreakyFink]

man this game just pissed me off! im doing a mission for the dark brotherhood. guy tells me to go to the sewers and break into the prison to kill this old dude. anyhow, i pretty much get to the end of the sewers, all i need to do is pick the lock. guess what? 13 tries isn't enough, and i run out of lock picks. fucking bullshit dude. now i have to go ALLLLLLLL the way back, and possibly find a shop or something where i can buy some lockpicks. growl

Check your autosaves.

Lesson learned: Manually save before picking locks.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

lesson learned indeed

i thought i had plenty lockpicks, i didn't even look at the number really. then it said i was out -_-

 

[op_ivy]

couple questions, apologies if they have been covered, but this thread has EXPLODED since last i checked it

1.) can someone point me to that quest with the painter?

2.) i need some alchemy help... how do i get more options out of my ingredients? everything i have only has one effect listed, the rest are just question marks. i have the second tool listed to mix these, so i can use all four slots. do i just need to get the next best mixing tool? do i just need to further my alchemy skills?

3.) alchemy again. what are some good poison or damaging ingredients and where can i find them? the vast majority of my ingredients are either beneficial to me, or relatively lame stuff against bad guys (ex. damage luck... wtf).

 

[Speevy]

I just read on another forum that not only are monsters rubberbanded to your level on all the quests, but all the loot is as well.

So, you'll never find some awesome powerful loot in a dungeon. It's all set to whatever level you currently are. For instance, I'm level 12 now, and every quest has dwarven armor in it. Even for quests I picked up when I was level 2 and the loot was at that point chain.

It sounds to me that you want an immortal character. This system actually lets you work within the game's menus to use spells, potions, weapons, armor, and stealth to win your battles. If you want an ultra-powerful sword, steal one.

Having Dwarven Armor for my character right now would be overencumbering. In addition, most spells just require to much magic for me to cast right now.

 

[FlyinJ]

1.) can someone point me to that quest with the painter?

Can someone please help me with that painter quest? It's unfortunately one of the ones I couldn't beat early on in the game, so I went to level. When I came back it scaled it up to me so it's just as hard.

Spoiler

I just can't kill these things without either using 2 bottles of turpentine or 1 bottle and about 4 super magic refill potions. I either use 2 bottles of turp on my sword then a few spells, or I use one bottle of turp and run backwards shooting fireballs at it for minutes, using magic refill potions as I go. If I try to just wail on them with my sword, they beat the living crap out of me. Even when I block with my shield they knock me back every time they hit... then jump on me with a super hit. Is there some weakness these things have that I'm not aware of? I'm a spellsword, btw

oh for op-ivy:

Spoiler

It's in Cheydinhal, at the painter's house on the eastern side. Talk to the NPCs there and ask them for rumors to get the quest, or find his house

 

[Belfast]

couple questions, apologies if they have been covered, but this thread has EXPLODED since last i checked it

1.) can someone point me to that quest with the painter?

2.) i need some alchemy help... how do i get more options out of my ingredients? everything i have only has one effect listed, the rest are just question marks. i have the second tool listed to mix these, so i can use all four slots. do i just need to get the next best mixing tool? do i just need to further my alchemy skills?

3.) alchemy again. what are some good poison or damaging ingredients and where can i find them? the vast majority of my ingredients are either beneficial to me, or relatively lame stuff against bad guys (ex. damage luck... wtf).

The number of effects you can pull out of ingredients is determined by youtr alchemy skill level. Novice can see 1, Apprentice 2, etc., etc.

 

[op_ivy]

Can someone please help me with that painter quest? It's unfortunately one of the ones I couldn't beat early on in the game, so I went to level. When I came back it scaled it up to me so it's just as hard.

Spoiler

I just can't kill these things without either using 2 bottles of turpentine or 1 bottle and about 4 super magic refill potions. I either use 2 bottles of turp on my sword then a few spells, or I use one bottle of turp and run backwards shooting fireballs at it for minutes, using magic refill potions as I go. If I try to just wail on them with my sword, they beat the living crap out of me. Even when I block with my shield they knock me back every time they hit... then jump on me with a super hit. Is there some weakness these things have that I'm not aware of? I'm a spellsword, btw

um, you sound like you could answer my question...

 

[FlyinJ]

Hah, I just edited my post before your reply ivy.

 

[DopeyFish]

w00t! no longer a bloodsucker! the game is fun again!

 

[op_ivy]

Hah, I just edited my post before your reply ivy.

cheers!

by the way, speed travel sucks. horses too. the vast majority of my gameplaying experience has been running and frolicking through meadows chasing after butterflies. wood elf 4 life!

 

[FlyinJ]

It sounds to me that you want an immortal character. This system actually lets you work within the game's menus to use spells, potions, weapons, armor, and stealth to win your battles. If you want an ultra-powerful sword, steal one.

Having Dwarven Armor for my character right now would be overencumbering. In addition, most spells just require to much magic for me to cast right now.

No, what I want is a game that isn't just meaningless quest vignette after quest vignette. I want to feel like I've earned the ability to complete a quest, not have my hand held the entire time and have every quest watered down/pepped up match my level no matter when I decide to take it.

I want an open ended world where I have to fear danger in ever dungeon I enter. Will this be full of dragons that will beat the crap out of me? Or will it be full of goblins, and I can easily slaughter them and take their crappy posessions to add a little to my wealth. I want to remember where that cave of dragons was when I get up to level 25, and go in there and beat their asses. That's the fun of an RPG.

In this game, it doesn't matter. I enter a dungeon knowing it's been modified to suit my level, both in monster content and in loot. If it's dragons, they'll be weak level 12 dragons. If it's goblins, they'll be tough level 12 goblins.

Even in a linear RPG experience like Final Fantasy, they actually allow you to get powerful. Imagine if you got in a fight in Final Fantasy that was too hard, and decided to go out and level up a bit before you tried it again. You go back after getting a few levels, only to find that the battle has been made harder as well to correspond to your new level.

 

[op_ivy]

i havent played the game nearly enough to make any judgements, but everything FlyinJ is saying makes perfect sense...

but at the same time, i know i got quite bored with morrowind once i reached a certain skill level and weapon set. i just became to powerfull. i'm assuming that wont really be the case in oblivion, at least not to the same extent. this is definitely a good thing.

basically, both ways have their advantages and diadvantages. as mentioned, i'll need quite a few more hours to tell you one way or the other if oblivion nailed it or broke it further. i think some middle road would probably be the best fit though.

 

[FlyinJ]

i havent played the game nearly enough to make any judgements, but everything FlyinJ is saying makes perfect sense...

but at the same time, i know i got quite bored with morrowind once i reached a certain skill level and weapon set. i just became to powerfull. i'm assuming that wont really be the case in oblivion, at least not to the same extent. this is definitely a good thing.

basically, both ways have their advantages and diadvantages. as mentioned, i'll need quite a few more hours to tell you one way or the other if oblivion nailed it or broke it further. i think some middle road would probably be the best fit though.

Yes, I completely agree. That was my main problem with Morrowind as well. I think they went a bit overboard with "fixing" the problem in Oblivion, though.

However, I'd much rather become too powerful in the endgame, having a challenging, ramped experience up to that point though.

 

[Pellham]

There are people with dogs in Cheydinhal, hell.. one woman told me that she trained dogs and people, but preferred dogs.

Another lady was at the cathedral, but she had her two dogs with her and was telling me how much she loved them.

I honestly never expected npcs to do stuff like the AI example on a regular basis.. they purely exist so that the world doesn't feel like a barren place. I kind of like tailing npcs and seeing what they do, but I can't get one of them to do anything while I'm watching..

Spoiler

The quest called "unfair competition" or something similar in the Imperial City.. the local merchants suspect that a guy is selling stolen stuff and want me to follow him to find out for sure. I see him meeting with a guy that I think is a thief (he's an asshole, from my experience anyway) next to a hollow tree stump but I never find anything inside of it

About that quest,

Spoiler

Better reload and this time try to listen in on the conversation between the merchant and the other guy