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The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion |OT|
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
Wafflecopter
Banned
Speevy said:
Morrowind modded is a million times better than vanilla Morrowind.
Wafflecopter
Banned
Speevy said:
Because consoles don't have mods?
According to who? You?indie85 said:
What you're describing is a prototypical MMORPG, which is a terrible way of designing an open-ended, single-player RPG. Bethesda even tried to go this route with Morrowind, and it just doesn't work.
While Oblivion does has its share of flaws, the leveling system is certainly not one of them.
Wafflecopter said:
Because not being a PC gamer, the idea of modifying a game permanently seems artificial. And keep in mind I LOVE customization in games. I just can't see how someone can alter the basic structure of a game and keep playing without making the game's skies turn green and rain candy as well.
Wafflecopter
Banned
Speevy said:
That's not how mods are at all :|. Morrowinds mods make it leagues better.
I think since you don't have mods, your view of it is warped. Fire up Morrowind and dl some mods. You'll see how great they are.
And this undermines the entire premise of the game, which is open-ended exploration. Most linear RPGs introduce stronger and stronger creatures, and better weapons and armor, as you progress from point A to point B. The game is controlled and you don't have full freedom to roam. In Oblivion, the entire premise is that you can go everywhere from the get-go. Adding the occasional very tough enemy out there is nice, and it's been done. (Try whacking a guard at the start. Or fight Umbra. Or the King of Miscarcand. Or...) But doing what you are describing just puts limits on what you can explore in the game, and breaks the entire premise.indie85 said:
If the mod you described was in the game by default, the game would be utterly ruined for me. I did ~two dozen random dungeons before completing a single quest. I put a good 30 hours into the game before even arriving at the main city. Adding in restrictions to the gameworld, such as regionally powerful enemies, would not let me do that kind of exploration and ruin the experince for me.
Wafflecopter
Banned
Speevy said:
It doesn't. It depends on the quality of the mod. BG2 mods are great. Morrowind, Battlefield 2, even Oblivion's make improvements. Four years from now, Oblivion will have DROVES of fantastic mods. It's all in the implementation.
How about the freedom to explore every city, and all of the map, from the beginning? The freedom to do dozens of dungeons any time you want? The freedom to pick and choose the quests you perform, taking and leaving them as you wish? The freedom to focus on the main quest, or to ignore it altogether? WTF are you talking about?indie85 said:
No, it really doesn't. Look at Morrowind - once you hit level 25 or so, you're essentially a god among men. You can whip anything in the game without breaking a sweat. Of course, subsequent editions added a difficulty slider, and the expansions add a bit of a challenge, but the original version shipped with non-scaled mobs. The result? You lose interest after coming to the realization that you can kill Vivec in one hit. A GOD for cripes sakes! Ridiculous.indie85 said:
Don't be dense. I would think that the mere fact you can go wherever you want, whenever you want, qualifies as being open-ended. You can tackle the main quest right after you create your character... you can choose to wait until after you've already poured 30 hours into the game... or you don't even have to bother with it at all. That's the beauty of Western RPGS... there aren't any limitations. You can truly role-play your avatar in whatever way you see fit.
Sure, and they have every right to their opinion. Just as you do.
Yeah and you can STILL roam around where you like, its just this time theres an actual learning curve to deal with. Try wacking that guard at level 40, you'll still get your ass handed to you in vanilla, hows that for ridiculous when their begging you to save cyrodil. Also certain NPCs like umbra remain tough whatever level you are with the mod.
Actually the mod encourages exploring, I myself had to explore more caves and dungeons than that before I started the quests, because like i said you'll get your ass handed to you otherwise. Also as high level loot isnt NEARLY as easy to get your hands on its another incentive to explore. BUT all the time with the added risk factor that some places you might get cained! Im level 34 and im yet to start the main quest.
Yeah that was a fault of the game, but at least it had a section of the game which was challengingGreekWolf said:
Nah id describe open-ended as having quests which can be completed in any number of ways and had consequences on my future choices in the game. Character development? Everyone ends up as a fighter/mage, wanna be a sneak thief? You'lll get your ass kicked it you just focus on those skills, so poor. Read my above post as to why the mod improves on why it doesnt disuade from exploring.
Guards are 10 levels above you no matter what. So they are always tough, you just get a bit better at combating them as time goes on.indie85 said:
And that's what I'm talking about. This "freedom" you speak of, that's what gets eliminated when you can't choose to do any quest you want. Having to go off and level to beat a quest is exactly what you DON'T have to do in Oblivion. A mod that adds that in utterly destroys the premise.
Look, it's pretty clear that you want Oblivion to play like a traditional J-RPG - having to level-up to go certain places, etc. I've played lots of those games, and I like them. But that's not what Oblivion is. If you want to turn Oblivion into that with mods, great. That's what the mod community is for. But your "criticisms" amount to wanting the game to be some other kind of RPG. It's not. It's free-form.
My Arms Your Hearse
Banned
So, anyone ever have problems getting the mid level athletics trainers to offer you training/give the master training quest? And if you did, and you resolved them, what did you do? I'm completely uberizing another characrer, due to sheer and utter boredom, and I remember on my last character I had to do a song and a dance to get them to talk to me in the right way (I still don't remember what I did, it just worked finally). So, I'm having this problem again x1000. Neither of them (the Argonian in Anvil or the Guy in the shack outside of Chorrol) will talk to me... though the Argonian taunts me with "pay me money for training!!" though there is no option, and no option to ask about the master trainer. I'd really rather not leave my game open and running in place for a day or two to level athletics to 100, and I'll just get it done with my levels if I could only get one of these bastards to talk to me.
You seem to be misinterpreting everything I say. Nothing is locked off to you, but with the mod theres a challenge. It makes it the OPPOSITE of linear, like i said it ENCOURAGES you to explore. Sure you can do the main quest, but your gonna find the Oblivion gates mighty hard, like there wont just be a bunch of scamps at level 4. There was no point to explore cyrodil before, now there is. I grow weary of re-versing the same points for you to understand this simple concept. I think you should try it, if only for non-closemindedness' sake.GhaleonEB said:
BTW I HATE J-RPGs.
Damn straight. AT least someone can see this game for what it is.
I don't see how running into enemies so powerful that you get your butt kicked so severely that you have to go off and level constitutes an open experience. That's what you have described - enemies that make you run away to level, quests that make you do side-dungeons to level. That's what you've said. I'm saying it's a terrible idea to inject that into Oblivion because, while you can GO to those places, the level of the enemies restricts what you can DO there.indie85 said:
I found the Oblivion gates to be tough throughout the game. I got my butt kicked rather often, even more so when I was leveled up ways. It was a challenge, but a doable one.
And the bolded part is just plain odd. So I've been wasting the 130 hours I put into the game, exploring? Oh. No.
And here I thought we were going to hit 10,000 posts.raYne said:
indie85 said:
Not true. The guards' levels are your level +10; when you're level 1, that's a huge difference and you'll get slaughtered nearly instantly; at level 30, a level 40 guard might be harder than your average bandit but certainly an easy fight.
I don't have a problem with phat lewt being harder to get; I don't have a problem with the monsters being harder; but when you're throwing level 15 bears against a level 3 character, that's a little nuts. It would be an acceptable level of nuts if running away from the critters was an option, but once you're spotted you can run from one end of Cyrodill to the other and the bear will still be chasing you, and that feature isn't something you can fix with a mod. Your only hope is to get to town, save, exit the game, and reload to break that chasing link. That, or lure the critter to the guards to take care of it.
It's not like Dragon Quest where you can scrape through an area you're underleveled for by running away from everything. And it's details like this that break the concept behind Oscuro's Overhaul mod.
Nathan
You seem to be taking my general description of what the mod does to the extreme, like you have to run away at every single cave or dungeon...its just not the case. Rather it engages your brain into deploying different tactics into defeating your foes ( I forgot to mention the AI of NPCs has been increased). Vanilla offers a very superficial offering of freedom; YES you can explore everywhere, but when Cave A offers exactly the same experience as Cave B at a particular level, it becomes a pointless exercise to explore CaveB.GhaleonEB said:
I found nothing tough in Vanilla.
Im going to bed.
It's been fun. It's also a near post-for-post repeat of the last time this argument came up, about a thousand posts or so ago. :lolKobold said:
You are a god among men. Read through this thread - people (myself included) have gotten whomped by clanfears, daedroths, mountain lions, trolls, will-o-the-wisps and more and came asking for advice on how to beat them. That does not exactly mesh well with your "everyone hates Oblivion as-is theory, I know.indie85 said:
Wooooooo!!
Wafflecopter
Banned
Why are people pissed at indie?
Wafflecopter said:
Because he's a troll. If nothing is hard for you in this game then you must have the special copy of this game, sold to only leet PC types. My PC version was challenging. I installed the mod, and it's interesting, and fun even, but it ain't Oblivion. I don't really have interest in playing it all the way through. Exploring is tedius, I'm always minutes away from getting raped. I then have to wander around looking for a place where I can actually play. I can respect the effort and the idea, but I went back to "vanilla" and it's just more fun.
Wafflecopter
Banned
DD-11 said:
Then the mod isn't that good. Trust me, Oblivion will have great mods, and like Morrowind some of them will be better than the Vanilla version
GreekWolf said:
Yep. My experience is that 95% of the people bitching about the levelling system are basically pissed that they can't exploit the game to make a God-character and run roughsod over all the competition. Morrowind was great for its time, but the game had to be modded to high hell to preserve a good beginning-to-end experience. I don't think anyone is going to say the implementation of the levelling system (as it currently is) is perfect, but to say that it's broken is dumb. What these people want is World of Warcraft where they are the greatest player in the universe and nothing can beat them - even the hardest mobs are pushovers, because they can't get that in a real MMO. It's pretty sad, actually.
Edit: And wafflecopter, most of the "best" mods for both Oblivion and Morrowind are little more than atmospheric. Better faces & player character models, sound effect updates and changes, illuminated windows, etc etc. That stuff was so good because it really added to the atmosphere of the gameworld.
One funny thing the update did: I can't skip the "2K" logo screen now. It used to be that I could skip to the title screen starting with that logo, now it's the next one. I can only imagine that someone in marketing at 2K objected to their logo being skipable. :lol
Also - what's the difference between Bethesda Softworks and Bethesda Studios?
Also - what's the difference between Bethesda Softworks and Bethesda Studios?
Confidence Man
Member
Nerevar said:
It is broken, sorry.
Too bad people just toss away the argument with "oh people just want it to be exploitable". It's completely ****ed up and makes the game less enjoyable and less immersive in many ways.
I'd have to agree that the default leveling system is broken... if you want to powergame at least. Having to get some combo of 10 skillups for the 2 stats you want to raise that level before you get those major skillups is just annoying. It adds tedium if you're trying to make the best character/get the most out of the leveling system. It's why I prefer mods that adjust your level/stats dynamically as you skill up. for example, my Argonian assassin still levels up every 10 major skillups, but I don't have to micromanage all of my minor skillups to get my ideal stat gains. It also gives me a way to "fix" any issues I may be running into - like early on, my endurance was really low and I was too weak to survive some fights that I couldn't win with stealth or sneak past. So instead of having to restart or anything, I just went and grinded out some block/heavy armor/armorer skillups and the after effect was my endurance caught up. and thanks to a retroactive health mod, I wasn't punished for it either... another thing I think is fair, because you can't always/don't always know how to build your character ideally for each level you're going to gain. Is my character a god? Yes, but because of his equipment more than his level, and after adjusting the difficulty a bit, I'm still challenged by a lot of enemies. I just like the modified leveling system available with PC mods because it adds yet more freedom to playing your character, with less punishments. I will say though, Oblivion's my first TES game and I love it, but I don't love the basic leveling system. So I hope that can change a bit for TES:V. At the very least, make it less punishing for a player who doesn't min/max their character.
Anyway, on with game progress: I worked more on the main quest recently.
Anyway, on with game progress: I worked more on the main quest recently.
I collected all 4 books of the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, Baurus survived the fight in the sewers (very tricky, I had to keep healing him actually) and I got the Mysterium Xarxes. Now I just need to hope I can give Martin the Masque of Clavicus Vile...
My Arms Your Hearse
Banned
you can give him any of the Daedric artifacts - they all work - giving away the Azura's Star as the game suggests (if I recall properly) is a terrible idea as it is one of the most useful, but you already know that
Confidence Man
Member
GhaleonEB said:
I've already gone into detail as to how it's broken somewhere in this thread. I think I was even having the discussion with you, in fact.
He didn't make any valid points. All he said was people want to exploit the game, they want it to be World of Warcraft, etc...
What people want is a world that makes some sense, where one shouldn't be able to breeze through the arena at level 1, where generic roadside bandits shouldn't suddenly start wearing expensive high-powered gear, or where every dungeon in the game has the same level of enemy. There should be some danger in the world. I shouldn't feel like there's nothing in the world, no dungeon, no enemy, no quest I can't handle as soon as I walk out of the training area.
Dr Zhivago
Member
Why not just bump up the difficulty slider if you're finding it too easy?
It's impossible for a game to be balanced for every single player in the world.
It's impossible for a game to be balanced for every single player in the world.
SteveMeister
Hang out with Steve.
GhaleonEB said:
Bethesda Game Studios is the internal development studio. We came up with the designation during Oblivion's development to distinguish titles developed internally from titles we publish from outside developers, like Call of Cthulhu, Pirates of the Caribbean, and the upcoming Star Trek games.
I dont have a special copy of the game, infact I dont consider myself to have any special gaming abilities (although maybe Im being modest), just telling you how I played it. Apart from the guards and a few selected NPCs, you can beat anyone EASILY one-on-one, END OF STORY. So this equates to an experience of kill, kill, rest and repeat or if you really wanna be adventurous kill 3 or 4 before you rest (though that might need a few health potions, the excitement!).DD-11 said:
About the 'God' argument, its not like this mod does away with scaling, its just it doesnt seem like it was done by a clown this time. Ie by the time you hit 20 you will outstrip common bandits, just as it should be. Like Im level 34 as i said, yet i still find undead take me on good, higher goblins (which spawn more readily now) can take me on, trolls etc- theres no charging in and one wack and everythings dead here.
Nerevar said:
You're right about that. However, I do think that it is EXTREMELY tedious to have to level my minor skills just so I can get some good stats when leveling. It's just another unnecessary layer of tedium to the whole system.
Also, I chose the three Willpower magic schools and Blade as my major skills. Unfortunately for me, this means that if I were to use my Blade skill regularly, I will definitely NOT get a +5 to my willpower when leveling. This is extremely frustrating because I can't seem to play my character the way I want to without causing him to be unnecesarily weakened when leveling. This wouldn't be such a problem if the game did not scale enemies to my level which meant that I could have compensated for this by leveling aggressively. But no, every singe level, I've got to plan my skills meticulously to achieve the results I want.
Also, I think it ****ing sucks that as a Mage, it is possible to get stuff like 100 strength or 100 agility or 100 endurance. The game doesn't allow me to be a kickass mage with low health but high damage output. There's just no distinction among most of the character clases since everyone gets access to the same skills/weapons/stats. In this respect, I think the D&D system gets it right. A mage is a mage is a mage with low health but powerful spells. Same goes for a fighter or a thief. All powergamers in Oblivion would end up with a jack-of-all-trades character. All powergamers in Baldur's Gate 2would end up with an extremely powerful mage/fighter/thief. See the difference?
Another issue with the leveling system is that I became the Archmage of the mage guild at Level 10. Where's the realism? A level 10 mage becomes head of the mage guild and kills a supposedly very powerful enemy at level 10?
Do The Mario
Unconfirmed Member
ElyrionX said:
Yeah I think they should of put level caps on some of the guild promotions
It's funny that you guys say Oblivion's default levelling system adds to the exploration side of the game, because for me and a lot of others it's exactly the opposite. Every cave/fort/ruin that I come across, I know that it'll be filled with random enemies and random treasure at my exact level. I got completely bored with it myself.
Do The Mario
Unconfirmed Member
snaildog said:
Yeah I remember playing morrowind and stumbling upon a vampire infested cave then having to run of my life.
Good times, but then you had to wait 3 minutes of the game to load after you died
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