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The EU did not Publish a 300-Page Study that couldn't Find Proof Piracy Harms Sales
- Thread starter Saya
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Generalpsyduck
Banned
EU sometimes good things, sometimes very bad things..October 10th there going to vote for a new copyright law and if this law goes into effect it will censor the whole web through a filter it is terrible, it will censor really anything you want to link, like news snippets,youtube,meme's everything.
And seeing the study that nothing is wrong there doing this for corporations not people.
And seeing the study that nothing is wrong there doing this for corporations not people.
Sad Affleck
Member
Not surprising in the least. Piracy is a service problem as we've already seen with music and games. Movies are hurt by piracy because movie studios do not provide a good service. People don't want to go to theaters any more, they want to watch the movie in their homes. As soon as movie studios start providing virtual day 1 tickets for home use piracy will become a non-issue.
It absolutely does. It's a shame there doesn't seem to be much momentum for one though.
BlackNMild2k1
Member
It's always been my thought that the majority of those that would consume the content (software, games, moves, tv, etc etc) illegally, never would have purchased it legally anyway (not at the price it's normally being sold at).
But since more people end up consuming certain content, then there is more people talking about it which may in turn persuade others who were curious to maybe obtain it legally.
And in some cases, there are those that have already obtained or have access to said content legally, but may use other avenues for convenience sake.
But since more people end up consuming certain content, then there is more people talking about it which may in turn persuade others who were curious to maybe obtain it legally.
And in some cases, there are those that have already obtained or have access to said content legally, but may use other avenues for convenience sake.
People being more likely to buy music they've listened to, even if it was pirated, has been a pretty consistent finding in studies like these. It's not much of a stretch to extend that to games.
Movies have a service, convenience, and pricing mismatch right now, as well as dealing with time sensitivity. Hundreds of thousands of people eagerly signing up for moviepass is an example. There haven't been many attempts to fix this, historically speaking. Other industries have had their Steam or Spotify equivalent but not movies, so piracy persists.
Royal_Flush
Member
Study: "That does not necessarily mean that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect."
Thread title: "study that found that piracy doesn't harm sales"
Could we please not spindoctor facts in thread titles? Thanks.
Thread title: "study that found that piracy doesn't harm sales"
Could we please not spindoctor facts in thread titles? Thanks.
PixelatedBookake
Junior Member
uncelestial
Member
You are spinning their findings. Finding that "piracy doesn't harm sales" is a positive claim, one that is not being made. The study resulted in the absence of a claim -- that they can't prove it harms sales.
The market force of piracy on revenue is pretty undeniable on industries that have turned to all-you-can-eat streaming because "at least it's not piracy," but that is incredibly difficult if not impossible to quantify in any kind of 1:1 scientific cause/effect way because of the very nature of "opportunity costs."
You sound like you really want to justify piracy but there isn't a justification for it. There is no fundamental right that anyone has to just take whatever copyrighted work they want and not compensate anyone for it.
The market force of piracy on revenue is pretty undeniable on industries that have turned to all-you-can-eat streaming because "at least it's not piracy," but that is incredibly difficult if not impossible to quantify in any kind of 1:1 scientific cause/effect way because of the very nature of "opportunity costs."
You sound like you really want to justify piracy but there isn't a justification for it. There is no fundamental right that anyone has to just take whatever copyrighted work they want and not compensate anyone for it.
Vote is delayed to November. I'm pushing to get rid of this provision altogether.
And note: tons of businesses are opposed.
I was referring to the "reason why it hasn't been published yet" bit.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The fact that piracy is illegal is possibly part of the reason that piracy isn't a major problem. If it was legal, it would be a completely different beast if only because it would introduce a different userbase that would dwarf the current pirates.
TatteredHat
Member
Are you a member of the EP? Parts of that bill seem great but Art. 11 and 13 are some real shit.
AquaticSquirrel
Member
This is the first time I've heard of this proposed internet filter from the EU. Normally the EU is one of the strongest supporters of human rights and consumer protections so I'm very disappointed that they would try to pull off some bullshit like this.
Granted it seems that the days of a "free" internet are numbered as freedoms are eroded slowly but surely to try to control the flow of information. I know that all politicians are corrupt and mainly in it for the money/bribes/power/kickbacks but I always thought the EU at least tried to also look out for the people to a small degree between all the bribes and fuckery.
It will be a sad day if this actually passes...
Exactly, very depressing.
Granted it seems that the days of a "free" internet are numbered as freedoms are eroded slowly but surely to try to control the flow of information. I know that all politicians are corrupt and mainly in it for the money/bribes/power/kickbacks but I always thought the EU at least tried to also look out for the people to a small degree between all the bribes and fuckery.
It will be a sad day if this actually passes...
Exactly, very depressing.
I don't know anyone who has NOT pirated due to moral qualms or whatever, it's more that buying movies doesn't seem like a good value in most cases and they're not seen as worth tracking down through illegitimate means most of the time either.
Pushing age 40 now so most of my contemporary friends and family just buy the things they like, but it's rarely movies, and I feel that's down to the all you can eat options out there available for TV and music but not really movies.
Anecdotally, I'd say most people I know might go to the theater a few times a year and maybe see a few other current films along the way when they have limited runs on Netfix/Amazon/Hulu.
I think there's very little desire these days to go out of the way to pirate or even buy a film that you know you're only going to watch once or twice. Building a media library has been reduced to a niche hobby compared to the DVD heyday due to streaming services making people rethink both their spending habits and how they dedicate physical space to media that they may not watch very often.
Ultimately this shift has benefited the concepts of binge watching TV programs and Spotify has made music very easy - there's a big gap there for movies that no one is filling, and as I said, at least in my circle, movies aren't really pirated, they're just not a priority due to lack of a consistent convenient option and other similar but more convenient (and also legal) entertainment timesinks.
Whos going to bother stealing a 2 hour movie when there's nearly infinite amounts of non-movie entertainment at the press of a button?
Does it though? There's no proof that the person who downloaded the movie, would have even gone to the cinema or bought the movie otherwise.
True Savior
Member
Piracy is how most media is consumed worldwide. The costs of physical media are absurd and the necessity of paying for tv+ several streaming options to watch anything is completely inaccessible to most people and so that distance between cost and content is rarely covered through subscriptions.
It's a clear case of a market completely unadjusted to the majority of the world population, which ends up being subsidized by a bunch of rich countries who can actually afford those solutions.
Piracy is simply the consequence of a majority being left out. Without it they would''t even watch it. And that's a big issue cause without it, some media would lack the awareness it gets.
It's a clear case of a market completely unadjusted to the majority of the world population, which ends up being subsidized by a bunch of rich countries who can actually afford those solutions.
Piracy is simply the consequence of a majority being left out. Without it they would''t even watch it. And that's a big issue cause without it, some media would lack the awareness it gets.
shinra-bansho
Member
You wouldn't steal a 300 page report.
Evolution of Metal
Member
It is impossible to measure a number of illegal movie downloads, let alone watches. There are so many private, streamed and specialized releases that nobody has resources to track it all.
If piracy were essentially ignored and there was not the slightest hint of repercussions for doing so, I very much doubt it would continue to "not be an issue" as why on earth would anyone pay for something they can "legally" get for free outside of moral qualms for the poor massive corporations.
Piracy, is in itself, not an issue because it is made to be a phantom issue. The moment it isn't legally problematic, there'd be an uptick in piracy, and thus it becomes more of an issue.
That said, the bottom line of a few mega corps isn't really on my list of concerns so whatever people do want to do is up to them
Piracy, is in itself, not an issue because it is made to be a phantom issue. The moment it isn't legally problematic, there'd be an uptick in piracy, and thus it becomes more of an issue.
That said, the bottom line of a few mega corps isn't really on my list of concerns so whatever people do want to do is up to them
Gizmodo wrote that headline. For shame all the same, maybe even more so.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
What a shit article.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
You wouldn't download a European study on piracy.
Cuz you can't.
Cuz you can't.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I can certainly believe this one n the case of tv shows, especially ones where the asking price is high or the show is difficult to get. If the show is good, people will probably go the extra mile to seek out the rest.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Saya you. I'd download the fuck out of it.
It *has* to effect sales of some things but only in relative percentages.
Big AAA game? Probably not.
Little indie? Significant enough of a percentage, I think.
On one hand, I know that there are things people pirate that they wouldn't have bought any way because they don't have the money. In that sense piracy should have no real impact. But let's say you can only afford like 5 CDs a year. You may not be buying the other 30 albums you pirate either way, but if you're already pirating you probably aren't buying those 5 CDs, either.
Big AAA game? Probably not.
Little indie? Significant enough of a percentage, I think.
On one hand, I know that there are things people pirate that they wouldn't have bought any way because they don't have the money. In that sense piracy should have no real impact. But let's say you can only afford like 5 CDs a year. You may not be buying the other 30 albums you pirate either way, but if you're already pirating you probably aren't buying those 5 CDs, either.
It doesnt harm any sales.
If i take myself, i have a subscription for my local cinema, 27 euros a month for unlimited acces, imax and special screenings. I go check out the movie in the cinema, if it becomes available on the net i'll download the movie, check it in my home atmosphere, if the movie holds up my expectations i will buy the movie day one. No matter the costs.. same for tv shows... I like them, ill buy them.
If they made a streamingservice with all the services combined. People dont need to seek illegal ways. Then everything will be under the same roof.. charge them 40 bucks for the whole lot. Sure beats the re runs and unattractive tv enviroment these days.
If i take myself, i have a subscription for my local cinema, 27 euros a month for unlimited acces, imax and special screenings. I go check out the movie in the cinema, if it becomes available on the net i'll download the movie, check it in my home atmosphere, if the movie holds up my expectations i will buy the movie day one. No matter the costs.. same for tv shows... I like them, ill buy them.
If they made a streamingservice with all the services combined. People dont need to seek illegal ways. Then everything will be under the same roof.. charge them 40 bucks for the whole lot. Sure beats the re runs and unattractive tv enviroment these days.
That's you.
I think there are people who support what they like by paying for it, even if it's after they have pirated it. Maybe some people buy a vinyl or a t-shirt at a show. Or they get a legit copy of an album on itunes. But other people may choose to put that money towards something else they want to support because piracy makes that possible for them. Maybe some people pirate everything released on major record labels so they can spend their money on bandcamp supporting self-published music.
RipperGrim
Member
It's literally impossible to prove, you would have to release the exact same thing twice. one with piracy and one without, can't be done.
We don't have a baseline for what the sales are supposed to because there are so many factors that go into it. Just because something is still successful doesn't mean piracy didn't affect it and vice versa if something fails doesn't mean it's because of piracy.
We don't have a baseline for what the sales are supposed to because there are so many factors that go into it. Just because something is still successful doesn't mean piracy didn't affect it and vice versa if something fails doesn't mean it's because of piracy.
Starwolf_UK
Member
It sounds like a bit of a null result to be frank and that can be a problem research has in general is null results tend not to be published unless it contracts something prior. But lack of publishing null results means it is unknown is something has been tried before.
But the whole suppressing angle made me check if the article source wasn't the Daily Express or some other anti-EU establishment.
Airola
Member
How can that be proved though?
You can basically only look at this from the perspective that someone who downloads a movie might still buy the movie, if the person ends up buying the movie.
But if the person don't end up buying the movie, the only thing that can be said is that this person didn't buy the movie but saw the movie.
I think discussing whether it harms sales is a moot point because you really can't prove it either way. You can't say if this many people downloaded the movie then the owner lost this much money and you can't say they would've never even bought the movie anyway, because no-one sees the future.
The only thing that should be decided is whether or not downloading without permission is wrong and comparable to stealing. And I think it should and could be done without even looking at the money the owners could lose by it. It should be all about whether the creators and producers of the movie should have the right to decide where, when and how their product is distributed, and whether violating that right should be wrong. The money part isn't important. The important part is about violating the rights of others.
Airola
Member
But where's the threshold in that?
Where the line goes that makes the movie good or bad for you? Would you buy a movie that was ok but not that good? Would you buy a movie that was quite good but not something you might want to watch again? Would you buy a movie that was good but not great?
If a certain movie isn't shown in your local cinema, would you still check it out online?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Woah
Almost all the movies i want to see are available in the cinema, the ones that i miss. I take the gamble and buy them anyway. If i dont like the movie that much at home. But still like it in a certain way ill buy it when it is heavily discounted.
BriareosGAF
Member
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but talking about "fundamental" rights with respect to intellectual property is a pretty slippery slope. All intellectual property rights exist as grants by the State enforced by threat of violence, physical or economic. We grant these rights to the State because we believe they are long-term beneficial to our economic prosperity, not because there's some irreducible philosophical foundation to it. Thus it's useful to discuss the matter in terms of its practical effects on productivity via consumption and remuneration.
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