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[graywolf323]

they didn't learn a thing from the disaster with Halo Infinite and Microsoft's over reliance on contractors for everything Phil's gotten them to do for Xbox (spending $80+ billion) it's a shame he seems unable (or unwilling) to convince them that gaming shouldn't be treated the same as other software development

 

[Robb]

It's not a policy as much as it is law I think in most states that you have to give benefits to worker over 18 months. My company also did that.

It's a law. After 18 months they have to make the temp a full time employee. Before the law was in place, companies would just use temps as indefinite employees. SOE used to do that. They would lie to the temps on hire and say after 90 days they'd be rolled over to full time employees but in reality they never intended to do that.

Ah, yeah I see the reasoning behind that. Still though, really bad practice to have for long running projects. I assume no one is going to wait 6 months to get a new contract at the same place. Once they're gone they're gone for at least another 18 months, or for good..

We use contractors in the short term where I work as well and it's always a shitshow. Every single time I question what have been done on a certain project the answer is "we had a guy but he's not here anymore and no one who actually works here knows how the code he wrote works". And we don't even work that much with programming. I can only assume the same scenario would be extremely time consuming when you're making a game.

 

[ADiTAR]

Ah, yeah I see the reasoning behind that. Still though, really bad practice to have for long running projects. I assume no one is going to wait 6 months to get a new contract at the same place. Once they're gone they're gone for at least another 18 months, or for good..

We use contractors in the short term where I work as well and it's always a shitshow. Every single time I question what have been done on a certain project the answer is "we had a guy but he's not here anymore and no one who actually works here knows how the code he wrote works". And we don't even work that much with programming. I can only assume the same scenario would be extremely time consuming when you're making a game.

I understand, but when you realize these companies are in it for money, and a full time employee is double what you're paying him (your salaryX2), it's really easy to think a contractor can do the same job for much less headache. I'm not justifying it, and it's clearly not working.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Just finished watching.

This guy said he was very clearly told that this was a contract job with a firm 18-month term with a 6-month gap between contract terms and he took it anyway. First because it paid more than his current job and he needed to effing eat and secondly because he wanted to give little kids the same magic he felt opening Forza as a little kid on Christmas.

Then he got to work making the game as the guy who made rocks and mountains, but not trees, and he was doing that until the contract of a really senior person ended. This senior contractor was so important that the project could have collapsed without him but he was being mercilessly fired at the end of his contract anyway. This meant that the narrator had to actually learn how the tools work, which apparently really hard and is his definition of crunch.

Then he worked his way up to doing R&D, which meant figuring out how large the textures could be before breaking the engine, while also doing development, which was making textures that didn't break the engine. People started to see the work the Forza team was doing because stuff was going up on Twitter and he was really happy.

Then he was told his contract was ending. By this point in the story he seems to have worked his way into the position of being the grizzled and indispensable old timer so he said he asked if he could be hired as a full time employee, but his lead said no. So it's obviously because the higher ups needed a third house while his only option was to have no job for 6 months. He didn't have time to do documentation so the wisdom he had accumulated couldn't be passed down because he never wrote anything down before that. So his contract ended and he found a different job, which must have been 6 months later as he had previously said not having a job for 6 months was his only option. But he didn't clarify.

Seems like it would have been a perfect piece for Jason S. to add to his long list of development crunch exposés. Maybe JS will signal boost it to highlight the realities of accepting a contract job with Microsoft.

Dude, the levels in which you shill for Microsoft is getting absurd.

 

[poppabk]

Dude, the levels in which you shill for Microsoft is getting absurd.

Did you read what he wrote?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Did you read what he wrote?

Yeah, I did... did you?

 

[Skifi28]

Xbox seems to have all the money in the world when it comes to constantly losing money or buying publishers, but actually paying your developers to help make a good game? That's a step too far.

 

[ReBurn]

Dude, the levels in which you shill for Microsoft is getting absurd.

I don't think you even know what a shill is, tbh.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Xbox seems to have all the money in the world when it comes to constantly losing money or buying publishers, but actually paying your developers to help make a good game? That's a step too far.

They save a ton of money by not making people tull time employees. The entire tech industry looks for ways to save money by cutting corners. This is one way microsoft does it and for certain business segments it works out, but for gaming, time largely works against them and delays are enormously costly as is releasing product that isn't in a great state.

The reason why Microsoft isn't getting many nominations for goty is because their games aren't made in a traditional studio environment. Many people have mentioned that a lot of studios use contractors and that is true, but most companies didn't get sued in 2000 for abusing labor laws to cheat workers out of benefits and are required by law to avoid permatemps.

Generally at other studios a contractor will be there for the duration of the project and maybe they'll be retained or they'll move on. 18 month contracts when games can take 6+ years... if people don't understand how devastating that is while creating a product or service I don't know what to tell people.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I don't think you even know what a shill is, tbh.

Great response... What do you actually get out of shilling for Microsoft. Hopefully, you're paid or reimbursed somehow and not just a sad fanatic.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

they didn't learn a thing from the disaster with Halo Infinite and Microsoft's over reliance on contractors for everything Phil's gotten them to do for Xbox (spending $80+ billion) it's a shame he seems unable (or unwilling) to convince them that gaming shouldn't be treated the same as other software development

The alternative is games that cost as much as Sony's but have a limited audience to sell to. That's the reason their first order of business was layoffs because they don't want to keep that many employees on the payroll/receiving benefits.

Cost controls are crucial for everyone, but especially xbox since the brand is on life support.

 

[ReBurn]

Great response... What do you actually get out of shilling for Microsoft. Hopefully, you're paid or reimbursed somehow and not just a sad fanatic.

What did I say that was shilling for Microsoft? Specifically where did I say Microsoft was great as part of what I wrote? You should probably take off the console war armor.

Did you actually watch the video? Microsoft didn't force that guy to sign an 18 month contract with a hard end date. He said that he knew the terms up front and he chose to take the position because it was for more money than he was currently making and that he thought it would be easy to convince Turn 10 to hire him before it ended.

What point are you even trying to make?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Nope even Sony uses contractors for its games but they have a higher level of QA when the work comes back. Sony even has their own contractor studio Called VASG (Visual Arts Service Group) that helps other 1st and 3rd parties.

I was going to point that out, that Sony doesn't necessarily hire contractors. But have (I think) two studios or so whose primary function is to act as a contractor for their internal studios and some third-party partners.

But sony doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) hire contractors in their internal teams.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

What did I say that was shilling for Microsoft? Specifically where did I say Microsoft was great as part of what I wrote? You should probably take off the console war armor.

Did you actually watch the video? Microsoft didn't force that guy to sign an 18 month contract with a hard end date. He said that he knew the terms up front and he chose to take the position because it was for more money than he was currently making and that he thought it would be easy to convince Turn 10 to hire him before it ended.

What point are you even trying to make?

You're still doing it by trying to paint this like oh well he wasn't forced to do this.

Where did he claim he was forced to do it in the video?

Just because you're not forced to do something doesn't mean the situation is shitty or that the results that you are working towards aren't worse off because of it.

You're so blinded by your obsession with Microsoft that you don't see that their labor policies directly impact their workers and their products.

He thought that if he worked hard and did a good job they'd hire him. They saddled him with more work than he was hired for and despite his hard work, he was still not retained. The project suffered in general, not because any one person is irreplaceable but because this is happening across the board.

 

[poppabk]

You're still doing it by trying to paint this like oh well he wasn't forced to do this.

Where did he claim he was forced to do it in the video?

Just because you're not forced to do something doesn't mean the situation is shitty or that the results that you are working towards aren't worse off because of it.

You're so blinded by your obsession with Microsoft that you don't see that their labor policies directly impact their workers and their products.

He thought that if he worked hard and did a good job they'd hire him. They saddled him with more work than he was hired for and despite his hard work, he was still not retained. The project suffered in general, not because any one person is irreplaceable but because this is happening across the board.

You literally repeated what he said. Are you an MS shill now?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I was going to point that out, that Sony doesn't necessarily hire contractors. But have (I think) two studios or so whose primary function is to act as a contractor for their internal studios and some third-party partners.

But sony doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) hire contractors in their internal teams.

SIE uses contractors like any other studios. You can go to LinkedIn for any one of Sony's studios and find contractors.

The difference again is that Sony augments projects with contract workers because it's easier to manage staffing levels in between projects. I someone is really good, easy to hire them. If they aren't really good or if the project is over and you don't have an immediate need for them, you clet them go and maybe they can come back and work on another project in the future.

Microsoft ends contracts after 18 months to avoid lawsuits over permatemps even if the project length is 70 months. That is what is unusual and counterproductive to game development. Again, very different from software development (although still not great), because video games are publishing, no one really cares when Microsoft Office gets an update or not (and if they do, it's usually a priority update i.e. shorter than 18 months).

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You literally repeated what he said. Are you an MS shill now?

Maybe you have a comprehension issue. The story isn't what is in dispute, I'm not defending Microsoft's position in this as if it were normal.

 

[ReBurn]

You're still doing it by trying to paint this like oh well he wasn't forced to do this.

Where did he claim he was forced to do it in the video?

Just because you're not forced to do something doesn't mean the situation is shitty or that the results that you are working towards aren't worse off because of it.

You're so blinded by your obsession with Microsoft that you don't see that their labor policies directly impact their workers and their products.

He thought that if he worked hard and did a good job they'd hire him. They saddled him with more work than he was hired for and despite his hard work, he was still not retained. The project suffered in general, not because any one person is irreplaceable but because this is happening across the board.

You still can't point to what I said that was shilling for Microsoft so you're attacking me for strawmen you're making up in your head. The guy didn't get a full time job because he was told up front he wasn't getting a full time job. You can romanticize it as abuse however you want to, but the only unrealistic expectations set in his story were the ones he set for himself.

Have fun with your console warring. But please leave me out of it.

 

[gothmog]

Steve Jobs said it perfectly: "The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste.".

They barely register that they are producing soulless products, so they have no awareness around how their hiring practices harm the creative vision of their games.

 

[Fafalada]

I don't really understand why they have the 18 month policy in place.

In a lot of countries in Europe there are legally enforced rules like that (ie. not a corporate choice - although some companies try to skirt around them).

This is a huge issue and it baffles me that they continue with this practice.. Just make a contract for the entire expectancy of the project.

This also assumes you know the project expectancies well - eg. look at something like Skull & Bones that literally took over 12 years. Now sure Forza isn't quite as unpredictable but the IP was basically left for dead and a lot of Turn10 staff laid off between last X1 release and the Series entry. So there's probably been at least one reboot of the project in between somewhere.

Or better yet, actually hire talented people instead of doing short-term contracts for projects that take 5+ years.

This is the part where games industry economics cause the most problems. Being hit-driven, and especially for places where cycling through permanent employees is not easy(non US countries basically) there's a lot of preference for flexible workforce to scale with what's happening in the market.
Also, this never received as much publicity as MS has on the topic - but eg. Ubisoft has been infamous for making permanent employment very rare in France (where labor laws are particularly employee friendly) - so their 'core' studios in Paris etc. have always been made up of armies of contractors. I know someone will make a joke that's reflected in their output too.

 

[Panajev2001a]

In a lot of countries in Europe there are legally enforced rules like that (ie. not a corporate choice - although some companies try to skirt around them).


This also assumes you know the project expectancies well - eg. look at something like Skull & Bones that literally took over 12 years. Now sure Forza isn't quite as unpredictable but the IP was basically left for dead and a lot of Turn10 staff laid off between last X1 release and the Series entry. So there's probably been at least one reboot of the project in between somewhere.


This is the part where games industry economics cause the most problems. Being hit-driven, and especially for places where cycling through permanent employees is not easy(non US countries basically) there's a lot of preference for flexible workforce to scale with what's happening in the market.
Also, this never received as much publicity as MS has on the topic - but eg. Ubisoft has been infamous for making permanent employment very rare in France (where labor laws are particularly employee friendly) - so their 'core' studios in Paris etc. have always been made up of armies of contractors. I know someone will make a joke that's reflected in their output too.

Halo Infinite was also developed by armies of rotating contractors and 343i is U.S. based.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Article on this is up on thedrive.

Forza Motorsport Developer Shares 'Exhausting' Experience Making the Game

Microsoft's long-reported insistence on contract hires took its toll on the rebooted racing sim's development, according to one artist.

www.thedrive.com

Although a slew of post-launch updates have improved Forza Motorsport following the title's October launch, it's fair to say the franchise's big reboot has fallen short of fan expectations. It had been six years since Forza Motorsport 7's release, and the follow-up still hit consoles and PCs with glaring graphical and gameplay bugs, incomplete features, and an unpopular single-player campaign—not to mention the Nürburgring Nordschleife's absence. A first-hand account of the game's development published to YouTube by one of its artists may give us insight as to why the day-one product turned out the way it did.

Adrian Campos was employed by Forza developer Turn 10 Studios as a Senior Environment Artist on a contract basis from June 2022 to October 2023. Campos was tasked with building the terrain and scenery surrounding the circuits, "essentially everything not on the track," in his words. His tenure began with work on Mugello and Spa-Francorchamps, but just a month and a half in, he learned that the other environment artist on the team who was showing him the ropes had to leave because their contract was ending. This, unfortunately, would become a theme of Campos' employment.

In time, Campos says Microsoft hired three additional artists to assist him. His description of "crunch" to meet Turn 10's target of 20 environments on launch day, particularly during the period when he was working solo, is regrettably all too common in the realm of triple-A game development. But the key here is what Campos describes as the "18/6 Rule." Basically, the developers that Microsoft would hire on a contract basis—that is to say, for a fixed term without healthcare or benefits—could only work for a maximum of 18 months before being required to take six off.

"Fast forward to around June of 2023, I received an email from the contractor company that really stun-locked me. It said 'hey, your contract is almost up.'" Campos thought he was contracted for 18 months rather than a year, and all Microsoft was willing to do for him was extend his term by a few more months.

"I feel bad—not necessarily for the system or the higher-ups," Campos said. "But I feel bad for the coworkers I'm leaving behind. That's one extra hand they don't have. So much knowledge and niche things I found out about the [game] engine, gone, simply because I didn't have time to write down documentation, because I had to finish a track." He left a week before Forza Motorsport's release last fall.

Feel free to add these quotes to the OP for more context Senua

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

As far as I recall it has something to do with Washington state laws or something?

 

[Roxkis_ii]

So in other words, Microsoft games will continue to be mid because MS doesn't see an issue with their hiring practices.

It's like a chief that doesn't taste their own food. Just shipping shit out and wondering why people don't want to eat at their restaurant, even with the best advertising teams.

 

[Three]

As far as I recall it has something to do with Washington state laws or something?

It has to do with the law but not Washington state law. It's "temporary worker law". If you keep somebody for more than 18 months they become an employee, so MS get rid of them so as to not pay the benefits of being an employee. They've been doing this crap for a long time

 

[Alexios]

Should have made a stand and quit, why work and crunch for a company that treats people even more valuable than yourself as expendable and replacable, they're only gonna do the same to you a few months later.

Lol @ excusing it by the law giving benefits or whatever past the 18 months, like it's bad to give folks what they're due and it's fine to run the studios like this just to avoid giving folks sick days and other bare essentials so the problem is the law and the benefits and not the shitty people dodging it.

 

[Interfectum]

Sounds like the guy knew the deal when he started the company and is now making a video complaining about it.

MS probably sees his Tweets and this video and think they dodged a bullet.

Not excusing MS here though, nearly everything they make is mid. I just don't see where this guy was wronged or slighted at all even after watching the video.

 

[Three]

Should have made a stand and quit, why work and crunch for a company that treats people even more valuable than yourself as expendable and replacable, they're only gonna do the same to you a few months later.

Lol @ excusing it by the law giving benefits or whatever past the 18 months, like it's bad to give folks what they're due and it's fine to run the studios like this just to avoid giving folks sick days and other bare essentials so the problem is the law and the benefits and not the shitty people dodging it.

I don't know about ChuckeRearmed but I'm certainly not excusing it. It's a shitty practice that they've been doing and I think the law actually exists because of them (MS) to begin with. A bunch of employees sued them for treating them like "permatemps":

Microsoft to pay $97 million to settle ‘permatemp’ case

The software vendor and a law firm representing more than 8,000 people who have held temporary jobs at Microsoft announced a settlement of a class-action lawsuit over whether the workers should have been eligible for some benefits.

www.computerworld.com

After getting sued they now game the new system and take advantage of employees by asking them to take 6 month unpaid "breaks" after a max of 18 months so that they can't be classified as permanent.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

Forza is really a BIG disappointment

They took months to add my favorite track into the game and Its as shit as It ever was + random added trees, terrible lightning compared to older Forzas, and random grafitti too...

It can't hold a candle to GT and I bet ACC will have a better nurburgring too.

 

[Raonak]

What a terrible way to develop software.

You lose so much knowledge and efficencies every time someone leaves. And there is such a long training period when you hire a new person.
Sure you can try document everything, but nobody actually reads or understands the documentation.

This really does explain how anemic their first party catalog has been.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I can't wait to see how Call of Duty degrades when ABK devs are shifted to the 18 month contractors

 

[StereoVsn]

What a terrible way to develop software.

You lose so much knowledge and efficencies every time someone leaves. And there is such a long training period when you hire a new person.
Sure you can try document everything, but nobody actually reads or understands the documentation.

This really does explain how anemic their first party catalog has been.

Yep, basically they will continue to output mediocre offerings because they physically can't do better with their employment policies.

"Good enough for GamePass" is what we can expect from MS for many years.