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[elrechazado]

Been rewatching the movies after not seeing them since release. Amazing and I honestly appreciate them a lot more without some of the annoying hype/fanaticism surrounding them back then. I'm thinking about ordering all the books. LOTR+The Hobbit+The Silmarillion. There's so many other Tolkien works on Middle Earth out there, any others I should get?

No, I would read the hobbit first, then lotr, then silmarillion. Silm is definitely a prequel, but it makes more sense knowing a bit more about the world through lotr.

 

[Ratrat]

No, I would read the hobbit first, then lotr, then silmarillion. Silm is definitely a prequel, but it makes more sense knowing a bit more about the world through lotr.

Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin, Tales from the Perilous Realm. Not worth reading?

edit: ah, of course. Thanks for the help. :

 

[elrechazado]

Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin, Tales from the Perilous Realm. Not worth reading?

Personally I enjoyed them, but I wouldn't think of touching them until reading the "finished" works first.

 

[anaron]

Watched it last night. "Flight to the Ford." <3

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Been rewatching the movies after not seeing them since release. Amazing and I honestly appreciate them a lot more without some of the annoying hype/fanaticism surrounding them back then. I'm thinking about ordering all the books. LOTR+The Hobbit+The Silmarillion. There's so many other Tolkien works on Middle Earth out there, any others I should get?

Read the main three (Silmarillion, Hobbit, LOTR) in the order Tolkien intended. If you still crave more, then read The Children of Hurin, for a longer more fleshed out version found than the version found in the Silmarillion. The Unfinished Tales is less of narrative and more of a collection of fragmentary works. There's a very good back story for Galadriel and Celeborn, as well as an interesting story set during the time of Numenor.

The History of Middle-Earth series is in the same vein as The Unfinished Tales, but even more so. Lots of essays and rough drafts and some narrative and wealth of information. A great insight into Tolkien's thinking.

If you still want more Tolkien, then check out his faerie stories:

Farmer Giles of Ham
Smith of Wootton Major
Leaf by Niggle
Roverandom

For Middle-Earth related poetry check out The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

For other poetry check out The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun.

For something intended for a younger audience, but still very readable for an adult, read Letters From Father Christmas.


Morgoth's Ring is a must from the History of Middle-Earth series.

 

[Ratrat]

Awesome post ^
Just browsing through amazon had me confused at just how much material was out there. bookmarked.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I always liked Gollum, as I consider him more of a tragic character than a villain. He wasn't really born evil (although his morals were dubious, at least), but the ring's malicious influence and his family shunning him nurtured the seed of hatred growing in his mind, and eventually broke his mind and spirit and made him a twisted, corrupted creature that would trust no one and hate everything. I always found the part about Gollum having vague memories of the grass against his feet and soft voices talking to him to be touching, as he was still able to remember a better time in his life, even after hundreds of years of loneliness and anger.

But overall, I think I'd have to say Gandalf is my favourite character.

That is how I feel about Gollum too.

My favourite character is Treebeard. I liked thinking about things from his perspective. In the grand scheme of things, everything we do is too hasty. Seldom do we take pleasure in the natural beauty around us and we assign names to something that only describes what it is to us in one snapshot in time. I like that the names Ents have for things are long and describe the changes to things over time. I also felt incredibly sad that he'd spent so long looking for the Entwives. So long that some of the Ents had settled down, got roots and lost their ability to speak.

"My name is growing all the time, and I've lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say. It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to."

 

[Lesiroth]

And I still haven't watched any of the LOTR movies. Perhaps I should get to opening that DVD one of these days.

 

[CrocMother]

And I still haven't watched any of the LOTR movies. Perhaps I should get to opening that DVD one of these days.

Or....today.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Watched Fellowship with the family. A good use of Christmas Day on the 10th anniversary of the film, methinks.

It's kind of funny now how many of the film's lines have found their way into memes. Watching the movies with the meme-lines in place and in context is actually a bit strange, we're all so used to Boromir telling us what else he needs before he simply walks into Mordor that when just says it and leaves it at that in the film, it's actually like we're expecting more afterwards.

Visually it's hard to argue that the film has aged significantly, if at all. Movies which only used CG effects when practical effects were absolutely impossible will always hold up better than movies which used CG for everything, just because. The emphasis on always preferring physical effects when possible seen in movies like the LOTR trilogy means those kinds of films will always age better than movies which always use CG as a cheap and easy way to do everything such as the Star War prequel trilogy.

The sound design and score of the film are of course as flawless today as they were 10 years ago. I think it would be fun to have a pet Balrog just for the bass whenever he opened his mouth to say something.

I haven't read the books in some years now. I should get around to that sometime. I still wonder what Tolkien would have thought of the films were he alive today to have seen them himself.

 

[Lax Mike]

Re-watched TT on Netflix recently. My favorite movies ever, probably.

That being said, this thread gives me the opportunity to get some nerdy issues I had with some decisions by the characters (NOTE: CHARACTERS, not the movies themselves)

-When Frodo and Sam get caught by the Gondor guys, and had to help them catch Gollum, Frodo should have just said "Hey Gollum, they got us. They are all around you with arrows pointed at you. We have to be their prisoners or we die." Gollum's reasons for being mad at Frodo were based off of a huge misunderstanding.

I always had the same problem with that scene. Also Gollum is supposedly great at evading capture, which makes it all the more odd that he pretty much just fell into their hands there. I know the books mention that Aragorn and Gandalf had been hunting for Gollum for years, decades even, and in the FotR, Gandalf mentions that Gollum had evaded him for years before being captured by Sauron.

-Eomer is forced into exile, along with thousands riders of the Roherim which easily crush the Uruk'hai force at the end. If he had so many riders willing to leave their families and follow him into exile, why didn't they back him when Wormtongue muscled him out of the palace in the first place? He clearly had the allegiance of 80% of the army and clearly Theoden was being poisoned.

I guess that would just have to be chalked up to his loyalty to the king, or that didn't initially have that many men. He had to marshal all the army from around Rohan, since it seems like most of their army is basically a militia with everyone being expected to be able to fight and ride, and would be called upon in times of need. There's also the fact that the men he brought to Helm's Deep were there to save the King and their comrades against a clearly evil foe. I doubt he would have gotten so much support if he said, "Hey, I need you to help me fight the Royal forces, because the King is under a spell, and, no this totally isn't a attempt to usurp the throne". Since Theoden would still be under the spell, he could just denounce Eomer in front of all his men, and because a good number of them probably had never personally met the king, they would have a hard time believing that his current state was anything different from usual.

 

[apana]

The orcs and goblins are very scary in this series. The actors did a good job because their bloodlust and desire for man flesh felt very genuine. I kept wondering what it would feel like to be Merry or Pippin when they are kidnapped by the orcs and forced to ride on their backs.

Correction: They weren't just orcs, they were Uruk-hai. They were created by Saruman cross breeding orcs and men, I hope that was the result of a magical spell and that he didn't actually have to find men who were willing to do that.

 

[strafer]

Samwise is the pinnacle of bro.

 

[CrocMother]

Correction: They weren't just orcs, they were Uruk-hai. They were created by Saruman cross breeding orcs and men, I hope that was the result of a magical spell and that he didn't actually have to find men who were willing to do that.

Their armor is thick, their shields, broad.

 

[JB1981]

Got the EE set on blu-ray for Xmas

 

[agrajag]

Correction: They weren't just orcs, they were Uruk-hai. They were created by Saruman cross breeding orcs and men, I hope that was the result of a magical spell and that he didn't actually have to find men who were willing to do that.

He had orcs rape female women.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin, Tales from the Perilous Realm. Not worth reading?

edit: ah, of course. Thanks for the help. :

They're good, but mainly for those who are already Tolkien fans. Start with the Hobbit, then go for LotR, and finish it up with the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is a great book, but a hard read, and it helps to know a bit more about Middle-earth before attempting to read the Silmarillion. You could also pick up Bilbo's Last Song, which is basically a poem that was supposed to be at the end of LotR, but was excluded, and wasn't published until many years later.

Female women eh

Personally I like male women the best, but ymmv

 

[Hawkian]

He had orcs rape female women.

Female women eh

 

[apana]

He had orcs rape female women.

My guess is Saruman had orcs and humans interbreed and then cloned/mutated them using those pits in the ground as was depicted in the films. Also your "female women" saying reminded me of Aragorn's joke about female Dwarves having beards.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

My guess is Saruman had orcs and humans interbreed and then cloned/mutated them using those pits in the ground as was depicted in the films. Also your "female women" saying reminded me of Aragorn's joke about female Dwarves having beards.

Female dwarves did actually have beards though. The dwarves were born with beards IIRC.

 

[Raonak]

Always found it a bit boring, it was setting up the groundwork for the next 2 movies so i guess it makes sense.

loved TT and ROTK though.

I must thank LOTR/peter jackson for making NZ famous though

 

[bengraven]

My guess is Saruman had orcs and humans interbreed and then cloned/mutated them using those pits in the ground as was depicted in the films. Also your "female women" saying reminded me of Aragorn's joke about female Dwarves having beards.

The pits were purely Jackson's invention.

Orcs bred with human women to make Uruk Hai. In fact, the background information Tolkien wrote talked a few times of rapes by orcs on women, though Tolkien himself was very very discreet about it.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Orcs bred with human women to make Uruk Hai. In fact, the background information Tolkien wrote talked a few times of rapes by orcs on women, though Tolkien himself was very very discreet about it.

Is this mentioned in HoMe or Letters of JRRT?

 

[apana]

The pits were purely Jackson's invention.

Orcs bred with human women to make Uruk Hai. In fact, the background information Tolkien wrote talked a few times of rapes by orcs on women, though Tolkien himself was very very discreet about it.

Even if that is how the first Uruk-hai started, just by the numbers it wouldn't be a very effective way of creating an army. At some point some sort of magical cloning or "genetic engineering" had to be used by Saruman. I think that is probably the reason why Jackson depicted it the way he did.

 

[apana]

One thing I am confused by is how Aragorn was a king but nobody knew about it except for a select few and why were there no kings of Gondor for such a long period? Why did Aragorn return to take the throne and not any of his fathers? My knowledge on this is limited because I have only read Two Towers and Return of the King, but I've seen all three films.

 

[Freshmaker]

I always had the same problem with that scene. Also Gollum is supposedly great at evading capture, which makes it all the more odd that he pretty much just fell into their hands there. I know the books mention that Aragorn and Gandalf had been hunting for Gollum for years, decades even, and in the FotR, Gandalf mentions that Gollum had evaded him for years before being captured by Sauron.

Frodo had been getting through to Smeagol. The main reason he was captured was because:

1) He was following Frodo's scent. He was mainly hanging around that waterfall because that's where Frodo's trail ran cold.

2) He trusted Frodo, and Frodo was trying to get Gollum captured with minimal fuss so he wouldn't go nuts and get himself killed. If he had been in a position to flee, he would've likely been killed.

Strider and Gandalf were trying to chase down a creature that had only the vaguest agenda that actively avoided people and anything it perceived as even slightly dangerous on top of preferring largely uninhabitable environments. There was nothing to pin down when they were searching.

Of course in the books, Frodo had far more reason to trust Faramir...

 

[Combichristoffersen]

One thing I am confused by is how Aragorn was a king but nobody knew about it except for a select few and why were there no kings of Gondor for such a long period? Why did Aragorn return to take the throne and not any of his fathers? My knowledge on this is limited because I have only read Two Towers and Return of the King, but I've seen all three films.

Long story, but basically the last king of Gondor died childless, and rule was handed over to the stewards of Gondor until an heir of Isildur would reappear to claim the crown of Gondor. Aragorn's father died when Aragorn was a child, and Aragorn wasn't told about his lineage until he came of age, as his mother feared he would be killed if it became known that Aragorn was heir to the throne of Gondor.

Aragorn also lived to become a rather impressive 210 years old before he finally croaked.

 

[Zoramon089]

Even if that is how the first Uruk-hai started, just by the numbers it wouldn't be a very effective way of creating an army. At some point some sort of magical cloning or "genetic engineering" had to be used by Saruman. I think that is probably the reason why Jackson depicted it the way he did.

. . .

 

[Freshmaker]

Even if that is how the first Uruk-hai started, just by the numbers it wouldn't be a very effective way of creating an army. At some point some sort of magical cloning or "genetic engineering" had to be used by Saruman. I think that is probably the reason why Jackson depicted it the way he did.

I get the impression that he didn't think the audience would understand why Isengard was a threat without the constant flying down the colon stuffed with monsters to establish it all.

I spent most of the Fellowship rolling my eyes during those OTT sequences since I knew they were going to go down like nothing once the Ents came at them.

 

[apana]

The mythology/history and origin stories of LOTR are a bit unwieldy, at least it is not easy to learn from just glancing a wiki article.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

The mythology/history and origin stories of LOTR are a bit unwieldy, at least it is not easy to learn from just glancing a wiki article.

Tolkien's mythology is very complex for a fictional mythology, yeah. But at the same time, the attention to detail and complexity is what makes his creation so impressive.

 

[Kimosabae]

Just marathoned these last night: I'm surprised at how little I cared for RotK this time around. While the movie has what is probably my favorite image in cinematic history (Gandalf galloping across the plains of Minas Tirith wielding his staff of light to scare off the Nazgul), it didn't have the tightness in pacing and emotional impact I remembered.

First time I saw this film in 03' I balled my eyes out rooting for Sam, and I wanted to break things after leaving theater (the film was inspiring). Things have reversed. I was more emotional towards Sam's actions in Fellowship, due to my mind fast forwarding to the climax of King. The character comes across even more genuinely, knowing his resolution to his friends never falters. Society doesn't breed people like this anymore, if it ever did.

Fellowship seems to be the transcendent film of the trilogy for me, now. Ironic, since when it dropped in 01', I thought it was boring as hell in my unsophisticated youth. That film is damn-near perfect. The lack of its dependence on CG helps a lot.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Fantastic thread I don't know how I could have possibly missed it.

I had adored the books since I was 14 when I first read through all three. After that first encounter I return to the universe Tolkien created at least once every couple years. When I first heard about the movie I was really skeptical(Frighteners eh that was okay I guess) and I couldn't help but feel that the movies were going to be a monstrous disappointment.

Still me and my dad were huge fans of the universe and couldn't help but show up opening night.

The one moment of Fellowship that made me realize holy shit they did it they actually did the impossible is when the group have just fled Moria, Gandalf is presumably dead and the group is mourning on the cliff side when Boromir in response to Aragons calling out for the party to leave says:

B.Let them rest for pitys sake!
A.By Nightfall these hills will be teeming with Orcs!

Get them on their feet.
On your feet Sam...Frodo?.......Frodo!

Elijah Wood turns and instead you don't see the actor at all only a small hobbit that was never supposed to face such torment and know such pain in a world that he only thought wonder and happiness came from. One small tear rolls down his cheek and with that sends me into a complete torrent.

Best movies of all time for me.

 

[TCRS]

The one moment of Fellowship that made me realize holy shit they did it they actually did the impossible is when the group have just fled Helms Deep, Gandalf is presumably dead

You mean the Mines of Moria?

Today I'm going to watch the SEE of The Two Towers. If I had to choose a favourite movie from the trilogy I would say TTT (though they really are one movie). It's just so perfect. I love Rohan and the Helms Deep battle is the best of the trilogy imo. And then we have Treebeard and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimly hunting the Uruks. The Journey to Helms Deep is great as well.

 

[Synless]

I really should read the books.

 

[apana]

Sam is so awesome and brave in both the books and films, probably my second favorite character. The actor who portrayed him did a great job, I love that speech he gives near the end of Two Towers. I think Sam and Gollum are supposed to represent two sides to Frodo's own personality. One that is desperately craving for the ring and the other who is hopeful and brave in the midst of terror and death.

 

[Buttons]

Wow I can't believe the movie is ten years old already. I remember all the hype when it was announced the movie was being produced.
There were posters everywhere a long time before the release and Lord of the Rings books were everywhere.
I bought the paperback edition and it was the first proper fantasy book I ever read. It started my passion for fantasy novels. I saw the first movie when I was halfway through Lord of the Rings and I absolutely loved the movie.

I really need to get the extended blu-ray editions. I loved my extended DVD versions.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Is this mentioned in HoMe or Letters of JRRT?

Its mentioned in Morgoth's Ring. History of Middle Earth, Volume 10.

The issue is contentious among Tolkien scholars as this idea isn't explicitly confirmed in the canonical texts. Tolkiens intentions though are clear. They are a result of cross breeding.

 

[CrocMother]

Just marathoned these last night: I'm surprised at how little I cared for RotK this time around. While the movie has what is probably my favorite image in cinematic history (Gandalf galloping across the plains of Minas Tirith wielding his staff of light to scare off the Nazgul), it didn't have the tightness in pacing and emotional impact I remembered.

As someone mentioned earlier, the way RotK is resolved is by far the weakest point in the series. I hated that there was this invincible ghost army that could have been tapped at any time. Totally made every other battle in the movie feel cheapened.

 

[elrechazado]

As someone mentioned earlier, the way RotK is resolved is by far the weakest point in the series. I hated that there was this invincible ghost army that could have been tapped at any time. Totally made every other battle in the movie feel cheapened.

zombie ghost battle was so lame. The charge of the rohirrim and theoden's speech and the horns was so awesome though.

 

[CrocMother]

zombie ghost battle was so lame. The charge of the rohirrim and theoden's speech and the horns was so awesome though.

Yeah exactly that scene still gives me chills to this day.

But with ghost army, all those deaths were completely unnecessary.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Just started a rewatch of the EE's yesterday, first time on Blu. SO GOOD. I still watch and love them like I'm seeing them for the first time, and with the improved video/audio quality, it IS like watching them again for the first time.

PS: Can never watch the Theatrical releases again. Just too many scenes missing to me now.

 

[elrechazado]

Just started a rewatch of the EE's yesterday, first time on Blu. SO GOOD. I still watch and love it them I'm seeing them for the first time, and with the video/audio quality, it IS like watching them again for the first time.

PS: Can never watch the Theatrical releases again. Just too many scenes missing to me now.

I can't either,but I do think the music and the flow of the entire sequence in FOTR for the opening is massively superior in the Theatrical cut compared to the EE version.

 

[strafer]

One scene that gives me chills are at the end of RotK when Aragorn says:

You bow to no one

That is some epic shit right there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URmQXIeVpN8

 

[Kimosabae]

Is the Ghost Army handled differently in the books?


Other disappointments with RotK:

Merry and Pippen. My God, these characters are irritating. I don't mind the role they play in regards to the epic at large - their saccharine light-heartedness is probably needed; but their emphasis is too much in RotK and borderlines on nonsensical very often.

The Witchking of Angmar: Seriously. WTF.

One scene that gives me chills are at the end of RotK when Aragorn says:

You bow to no one

That is some epic shit right there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URmQXIeVpN8

Yup. That scene still does it for me; though Pippen and Merry being present sullys it a bit.

 

[elrechazado]

Is the Ghost Army handled differently in the books?

In the books, the main strength of gondor's outlying fiefdoms and districts are held back in the coastal cities to stave off the attacks by sauron's forces and allies that are attacking there. Minas Tirith only has 7 thousand or so soldiers, a fraction of what they expected to hold the city with.

In the books, aragorn takes the paths of the dead and liberates town by town the provinces that are threatened by these other forces of sauron, using the ghost soldiers to strike fear into those forces of sauron, then defeating them. They then get to the main port city, using the built up force they've been collecting as they go, aided by the ghosts, and then aragorn releaes them.

He then loads all of his human forces (the ones that would/should have been in minas tirith if not for sauron's split attack on gondor), puts them in sauron's allies' boats, and sails up the river to the relief of minas tirith. At that time, the ghosts have been released by aragorn, and they don't help or appear at minas tirith at all.

Even with this new force, the battle is still a tough fight, and eomer and aragorn's reuniting on the battlefield is one of the most epic moments in the series, and it was completely not even in the movies, so very disappointing.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Even with this new force, the battle is still a tough fight, and eomer and aragorn's reuniting on the battlefield is one of the most epic moments in the series, and it was completely not even in the movies, so very disappointing.

There was a lot missing from the Minas Tirith/Battle of Pelenor Fields sequence that got me grumbling. Some of my favourite scenes occur in and around the Houses of Healing and that was generally looked over. I really wanted to see Aragorn using the Kingsfoil. I loved the descriptions on how the scent filled the room and stirred hope among those inside.

Films also had too much Arwen for my liking.

 

[Loxley]

In the books, the main strength of gondor's outlying fiefdoms and districts are held back in the coastal cities to stave off the attacks by sauron's forces and allies that are attacking there. Minas Tirith only has 7 thousand or so soldiers, a fraction of what they expected to hold the city with.

In the books, aragorn takes the paths of the dead and liberates town by town the provinces that are threatened by these other forces of sauron, using the ghost soldiers to strike fear into those forces of sauron, then defeating them. They then get to the main port city, using the built up force they've been collecting as they go, aided by the ghosts, and then aragorn releaes them.

He then loads all of his human forces (the ones that would/should have been in minas tirith if not for sauron's split attack on gondor), puts them in sauron's allies' boats, and sails up the river to the relief of minas tirith. At that time, the ghosts have been released by aragorn, and they don't help or appear at minas tirith at all.

Even with this new force, the battle is still a tough fight, and eomer and aragorn's reuniting on the battlefield is one of the most epic moments in the series, and it was completely not even in the movies, so very disappointing.

Wow, that sounds fantastic. I see why critics and LotR fans were disappointed by the dead-army showing up and cleaning house at the battle. If that's the way they would have played out in the films it would have been far better, but I guess it also would have added another 30 minutes (at least) to the running time. It's possible that they chose to go the way they did for budgetary reasons, but that still would have been awesome to see.

 

[Kimosabae]

In the books, the main strength of gondor's outlying fiefdoms and districts are held back in the coastal cities to stave off the attacks by sauron's forces and allies that are attacking there. Minas Tirith only has 7 thousand or so soldiers, a fraction of what they expected to hold the city with.

In the books, aragorn takes the paths of the dead and liberates town by town the provinces that are threatened by these other forces of sauron, using the ghost soldiers to strike fear into those forces of sauron, then defeating them. They then get to the main port city, using the built up force they've been collecting as they go, aided by the ghosts, and then aragorn releaes them.

He then loads all of his human forces (the ones that would/should have been in minas tirith if not for sauron's split attack on gondor), puts them in sauron's allies' boats, and sails up the river to the relief of minas tirith. At that time, the ghosts have been released by aragorn, and they don't help or appear at minas tirith at all.

Even with this new force, the battle is still a tough fight, and eomer and aragorn's reuniting on the battlefield is one of the most epic moments in the series, and it was completely not even in the movies, so very disappointing.

Gotcha. Definitely sounds more interesting - but time consuming. That's probably a good reason for the change? Not only filming the sequence of province visits but a drawn out battle with no convenient gambit to end it convincingly.

 

[elrechazado]

Wow, that sounds fantastic. I now get why critics and LotR fans were disappointed by the dead-army showing up and cleaning house at the battle. If that's the way they would have played out in the films it would have been far better, but I guess it also would have added another 30 minutes (at least) to the running time. It's possible that they chose to go the way they did for budgetary reasons, but that still would have been awesome to see.

The answer should have been for the ghosts to do the thing they did in the movies (even though that didn't happen either) to the boats, then aragorn could have lead an army onto those boats, and shown up and been a badass leading in reinforcemetns to the battle at minas tirith. Wouldn't have required really any back story or exposition, but wouldn't have felt like such a cheap ass deus ex machina.