The Fighting Game Noob Thread: From Scrub to Master
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
I'm not active at the moment, but I do own the game and have intermediate skill level play in it. Steam ID is Karsticles.
Professor Renegade
Banned
Cool, added!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Chun Li critique please. I'm not good at reacting with U1. I try to predict and it fucks me over. In this case I'm waiting for an fb and I just completely lose patience waiting for a reaction. How do I temper my patience in this scenario?
This is between my rival, Booyah, and I. Booyah is waiting for his gaf account to be accepted before he can post. Every few days/weeks we do a short set of games to see how we've improved. Before this, I took out my Ryu. I got a win, but he got 3 more wins. Then I switched to Chun and he couldn't beat my Chun Li once. Compared to last time, he wrecked my Chun Li. It's like we go back and forth. My Chun Li gets a bit better and he struggles, his Ryu gets a bit better and I struggle. I'm pretty sure this will make his Ryu even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OVpWCzetM
This is between my rival, Booyah, and I. Booyah is waiting for his gaf account to be accepted before he can post. Every few days/weeks we do a short set of games to see how we've improved. Before this, I took out my Ryu. I got a win, but he got 3 more wins. Then I switched to Chun and he couldn't beat my Chun Li once. Compared to last time, he wrecked my Chun Li. It's like we go back and forth. My Chun Li gets a bit better and he struggles, his Ryu gets a bit better and I struggle. I'm pretty sure this will make his Ryu even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OVpWCzetM
i did the akira ones, pretty easy honestly. i think the input for his knee is super forgiving in doa.Now I'd like people here to actually do the challenges in DOA
So how do you guys get over the tedium of execution and combo drills? I can't do it. I'm way too ADD. I get bored so quickly in training mode. I love fighting games but I lack the patience and discipline to get to the next level. I don't have any friends who want to get good with me, either.
You can't use prediction with that ultra. You have to react to it. An intelligent player will know that you are looking for it, and will use weird timings or never throw a fire ball period. Look for it a few times, but once you can establish that they know you are trying to punish a fireball with u1, just go back to the game plan with the occasional charge buffers. They will stop looking for the obvious calls (chun holding down back at a certain distance), and that's when you can catch them when they throw a reckless fireball.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I know you can't predict it but I lose patience.
So when I love patience, rather than dial in the ultra, shoot out a kikoken and make them think they're safe.
Gotcha.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
If Beef were here he'd say,"Fuck combos, play grapplers." RIP Beef.
I'm not sure because I just recently starting learning combos and implementing them into my game in SFIV. GG though, I don't find it tedious at all. I find it fun. The hard part is remember the combos in the first place for me.
If you're going to drill a combo, do so for short periods. If your attention can only handle 10-20 minutes, leave to working on it for 20 minutes and come back to it. You shouldn't work on a combo for more than an hour, though because otherwise you'll probably feel like you're not making much progress.
CountBlack
Member
A lot of Chun's do cr.HP to move forward slightly then react to the fireball. It makes it easier for me doing that.
With Deejay you can whiff a lk. Upkick -> U1 for some forward movement then a punish on the fireball.
Thank you Kitasenju~sama
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Can you explain this more thoroughly? So the goal is to whiff and then punish?
MikeBreezy92
Member
Make it interesting. Do short drills. You're really gonna have to make it short and sweet until you get your discilpline up.
Edit: Basically if you're not a practice mode monster don't be in practice mode for hours doing drills. This is a constant mistake new players make.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Speaking of combos, any tips on transferring them from training to actual fights?
I can do a U1 combo in training mode just fine, but during a match I hesitate. Any help with overcoming that to someone new to combos?
I can do a U1 combo in training mode just fine, but during a match I hesitate. Any help with overcoming that to someone new to combos?
MikeBreezy92
Member
Trial by Fire really Lmao. It's about know why you use the combo starter in the first place. That and you have to pretty much be confident in it. If not it's much easier to drop especially in a already stressful match situation.
CountBlack
Member
Her cr.HP moves her forward to get a better guarantee of being in range for U1. For non-charge characters its sometimes easier to do that because you can buffer the motion in-between the normals then just press the button when you see a fireball. With charge characters you can't necessarily buffer the motion since you'll lose charge, but it helps you stay in spot or move forward.
Another tip would be to really listen to sound cues, so wearing headphones when playing could help. Right when you hear the hadouken you know it's time to go. Or when you see him start doing a crouch motion you can start to feel that its about to come out. Chun's U1 is a very good anti fireball Ultra so you don't have to do it immediately.
I use a combination of putting CPU to random block, having both experienced and inexperienced friends try and escape the situation/fluster me, and throwing myself into online and hoping I don't get crucified.
It works pretty well, I can do Bedman oki/spacing in a way that isn't really stupid.
paolo11
Member
Thank you.
Yeah, we all have them. I tend to think it's because we play on autopilot and aren't breaking down the match in our heads. For example, I went back and played UMvC3 for the first time in a while at locals about 6 months ago, and I was struggling against my opponent. Then I realized that I was playing Dormammu like I was using my main team, instead of using the strengths of the current team. When I forced myself to adjust, I started doing better.
However, analyzing your play mid-match and making adjustments is extremely difficult. I think it takes at least 6 months of dedicated play to be able to do it, because you need to first be able to recognize that you're doing the wrong thing, which means having a solid fighting game knowledge backdrop. Then, it takes even longer to be able to break down play mid-matches. The highest level players are doing this every second of their match - they're analyzing at a level that is extremely hard to get to because...well, it would take a while to explain.
Let's just say that it's really easy to push buttons and then get annoyed that you lost. That's the default, low-level existence of humanity. Everything else takes effort, and we all fail to reach our potential on some days due to tiredness, low motivation, distractions, etc.
I see. Thanks for your input, Kart. I want to be smart and mentally strong for Street Fighter.
Some USF4 protip: you can also watch their EX bar, since it only fills up when doing specials.
Now if your opponent misses his motion and do a shoryu instead of a hado though... ^^
[EDIT]
This is a very important and good insight, there.Thank you.
Yeah, we all have them. I tend to think it's because we play on autopilot and aren't breaking down the match in our heads. For example, I went back and played UMvC3 for the first time in a while at locals about 6 months ago, and I was struggling against my opponent. Then I realized that I was playing Dormammu like I was using my main team, instead of using the strengths of the current team. When I forced myself to adjust, I started doing better.
However, analyzing your play mid-match and making adjustments is extremely difficult. I think it takes at least 6 months of dedicated play to be able to do it, because you need to first be able to recognize that you're doing the wrong thing, which means having a solid fighting game knowledge backdrop. Then, it takes even longer to be able to break down play mid-matches. The highest level players are doing this every second of their match - they're analyzing at a level that is extremely hard to get to because...well, it would take a while to explain.
Let's just say that it's really easy to push buttons and then get annoyed that you lost. That's the default, low-level existence of humanity. Everything else takes effort, and we all fail to reach our potential on some days due to tiredness, low motivation, distractions, etc.
Being able to adjust your playstyle mid-match is the graal to shoot for, but there's an easier start to it every intermediate player should try to get to first: recognizing your opponent's playstyle in the first seconds of the match. Is he the defensive type? Is he pushing you? Does he jump too much? Is he being reckless or solid? Is he trying to reversal DP every time he goes down? The list goes on and on, and it basically boils down to being able to detect weaknesses in your opponent's play so as to know how to counter him. And after that, it does get really interesting when both of you can adapt to these counters on the fly -- I'm still so far away from this. ^^
But yeah, trying to tick boxes or put your opponent in "a category" when first playing against him is the first step to take once you get enough knowledge of the game; Justin Wong is doing that when playing online against randoms, he will do random unsafe things in the first round to see how the other player reacts to them, and continue to abuse them if he falls for them, or switch his style if it doesn't work.
direct_quote
Member
I would play against the cpu sometimes to simulate a match.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Thank you.
Yeah, we all have them. I tend to think it's because we play on autopilot and aren't breaking down the match in our heads. For example, I went back and played UMvC3 for the first time in a while at locals about 6 months ago, and I was struggling against my opponent. Then I realized that I was playing Dormammu like I was using my main team, instead of using the strengths of the current team. When I forced myself to adjust, I started doing better.
However, analyzing your play mid-match and making adjustments is extremely difficult. I think it takes at least 6 months of dedicated play to be able to do it, because you need to first be able to recognize that you're doing the wrong thing, which means having a solid fighting game knowledge backdrop. Then, it takes even longer to be able to break down play mid-matches. The highest level players are doing this every second of their match - they're analyzing at a level that is extremely hard to get to because...well, it would take a while to explain.
Let's just say that it's really easy to push buttons and then get annoyed that you lost. That's the default, low-level existence of humanity. Everything else takes effort, and we all fail to reach our potential on some days due to tiredness, low motivation, distractions, etc.
Thanks for this post. Great insight to help everyone when we have those bad days.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The 3 days I decided to play Chun Li I was using U2, it was easier for combos and anti-airs. It's not a charge motion which is better for me at least.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Comboing with U2 is easier but there are some match ups where U1 is better and I need to combo on the fly just in case.
I recorded a couple online ranked matches. I'll do a little self-critique. Any input is appreciated.
(Please ignore the Hotline Miami 2 music, I hope they don't get taken down because of it haha)
Match I got wrecked
:09 - Opened with an instant air jaguar to catch him by surprise, hoping for a hit on backdash or jump. Unfortunately he decided to play it safe like he should and I got punished.
:11 - I play against computers ALOT. I know I shouldn't, but sometimes I just like to spar with a ryu bot to learn how to dodge fireballs and use anti-airs. Unfortunately, this nets me some bad habits, in this case focus spam. Gotta use it 1/3 of what I do now.
:13 - could have punished here (I think?), but air tatsu and tatsu in general scares the absolute crap out of me. I have no idea how to deal with it and when to counter attack, so I need to learn that.
:17 - again, tatsu makes me go full stupid.
:20 - another bad habit from fighting bots. Highly predictable and I get punished for it here.
:25 - I really should have neutral jumped here, since about 80% of ryus I fight online will grab after tatsu, but I decided to play it safe.
:28 - could have punished with standing fierce kick.
:29 - and here comes my barrage of failed IA jaguar kicks. I have a lot of trouble hit the down-right input, and tend to go straight from down to right when I try to fast. This is the result.
Gonna do the rest later, but after watching the whole thing Ive noticed I jump way too much and that I play to aggressively when I shouldn't be. At :48 I apparently decide to try a IAJK when he was doing nothing, waiting for the attack. I should have tried to wait for a fireball.
Match I barely won
:06 IAJK is really cool but I really need to stop attempting to open with it. Almost no one actually gets hit by it.
:15 - got lucky with the focus here, and managed to get a decent combo off it.
:22 - I go for the cross up, which would have been fine since he threw a fireball except I missed the actual cross up kick, and end up in the corner for it. I need to use hard ground jaguar kick more for corner pressure, it would have been a better option here.
:39 - Ive noticed I tend to rely on ex jaguar kick as a hail mary to win matches, since it hits overhead. I really should have waited for a fireball to use it, which is a scenario where its more effective and guaranteed to hit.
:51 - this time I try a Light jaguar kick, and it pays off. I should still knock the opening attack crap off though.
1:02 - Jaguar kick would have been a safer and more reliable method of approach in this scenario.
1:10 - Hard Punch is a better anti-air I believe
1:16 - my jaguar tooth becomes predictable ad I get punished for it
1:18 - not sure what I was even trying for here
Thats all Ill write on that one for now. The only other thing Ill say about it is that the perfectly synced music climax at the end is awesome.
Overall notes and things I feel I need to improve on:
- Fix my IAJK problem ( I should be able to do at least a full drill)
- Stop my bad habits (jumping/crossups, focus spam, hard jaguar tooth)
- Improve my defensive game, I got grabbed a lot after jump in low punch
(Please ignore the Hotline Miami 2 music, I hope they don't get taken down because of it haha)
Match I got wrecked
:09 - Opened with an instant air jaguar to catch him by surprise, hoping for a hit on backdash or jump. Unfortunately he decided to play it safe like he should and I got punished.
:11 - I play against computers ALOT. I know I shouldn't, but sometimes I just like to spar with a ryu bot to learn how to dodge fireballs and use anti-airs. Unfortunately, this nets me some bad habits, in this case focus spam. Gotta use it 1/3 of what I do now.
:13 - could have punished here (I think?), but air tatsu and tatsu in general scares the absolute crap out of me. I have no idea how to deal with it and when to counter attack, so I need to learn that.
:17 - again, tatsu makes me go full stupid.
:20 - another bad habit from fighting bots. Highly predictable and I get punished for it here.
:25 - I really should have neutral jumped here, since about 80% of ryus I fight online will grab after tatsu, but I decided to play it safe.
:28 - could have punished with standing fierce kick.
:29 - and here comes my barrage of failed IA jaguar kicks. I have a lot of trouble hit the down-right input, and tend to go straight from down to right when I try to fast. This is the result.
Gonna do the rest later, but after watching the whole thing Ive noticed I jump way too much and that I play to aggressively when I shouldn't be. At :48 I apparently decide to try a IAJK when he was doing nothing, waiting for the attack. I should have tried to wait for a fireball.
Match I barely won
:06 IAJK is really cool but I really need to stop attempting to open with it. Almost no one actually gets hit by it.
:15 - got lucky with the focus here, and managed to get a decent combo off it.
:22 - I go for the cross up, which would have been fine since he threw a fireball except I missed the actual cross up kick, and end up in the corner for it. I need to use hard ground jaguar kick more for corner pressure, it would have been a better option here.
:39 - Ive noticed I tend to rely on ex jaguar kick as a hail mary to win matches, since it hits overhead. I really should have waited for a fireball to use it, which is a scenario where its more effective and guaranteed to hit.
:51 - this time I try a Light jaguar kick, and it pays off. I should still knock the opening attack crap off though.
1:02 - Jaguar kick would have been a safer and more reliable method of approach in this scenario.
1:10 - Hard Punch is a better anti-air I believe
1:16 - my jaguar tooth becomes predictable ad I get punished for it
1:18 - not sure what I was even trying for here
Thats all Ill write on that one for now. The only other thing Ill say about it is that the perfectly synced music climax at the end is awesome.
Overall notes and things I feel I need to improve on:
- Fix my IAJK problem ( I should be able to do at least a full drill)
- Stop my bad habits (jumping/crossups, focus spam, hard jaguar tooth)
- Improve my defensive game, I got grabbed a lot after jump in low punch
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I meant execution in general, too. Not just combos. People say, like, you should be able to do 100 fireballs in both directions without error.
I feel like another thing I need to do is memorize range and priorities - not just my character but also my match-ups.
As far as combos go, i would be happy with consistency with smaller, damaging combos and being able to combo into supers reliably. In a real fight I tend to get mashy from tension. Or straight up choke, get pushed into a corner.
When I play online I really have nothing to prove to anyone but that's when I get the most anxiety and make a lot of dumb mistakes. It's not so bad in a local match.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Pretty much you have to build up a lot of discipline to do certain things.
Gipsy Danger
Member
In regards to U1 sometimes it's just as smart to never use the Ultra. The fear of the ultra is enough to have people stop throwing fireballs. I've started doing this with Eroo. A few months back whenever I'd have super I'd be desperate to land the kara-demon whenever I could get it. But now I just hold onto the bar and try to use it for more useful things like converting off of cr.mk xx FB.
If you have the meter the threat of it is always there so it can change the way you and your opponent plays. Someone is far less likely to throw fireballs when a Chun U1 is just a motion away. But at the same time you have to be able to react to it when they do eventually throw one.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Unforunately I don't have any additional constructive criticism to provide, but I will say you're correctly dissecting where you went wrong in your matches. Being able to recognize which of the finer details to work one is a good quality to have.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Who in this thread is from Europe and an SF4/5 player? I'd like to help out people with actual matches on Steam or PS4 but seems like mostly everyone is North America or Asia 
Who in this thread is from Europe and an SF4/5 player? I'd like to help out people with actual matches on Steam or PS4 but seems like mostly everyone is North America or Asia
From EU
But complete garbage at the game
Holy Order Sol
Member
Who in this thread is from Europe and an SF4/5 player? I'd like to help out people with actual matches on Steam or PS4 but seems like mostly everyone is North America or Asia
EU, I'll be playing V but I don't play Ultra.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Now I'd like people here to actually do the challenges in DOA
The only one I've had problems with is Ein's. It has 3 WS+k in the combo into 66kkk. I'm going to feel so badass when I finally hit it.
Cool seeing people give DoA a legit chance. I'm used to seeing people shit on it because boobs.
Done all of Lisa's but they seemed easier that alot of the restNow I'd like people here to actually do the challenges in DOA
Looked at alpha and turned back
Cool
There is a lack of EU matchmaking
Tired of all the laggy matches with US and the rest
PrivateRyan
Member
When I try to 'teach' someone fighting games beyond the I-can-do-special-moves-level, the first thing I teach them to look out for are opponents who keep jumping in, then tell that player to learn to stand their ground, wait for the jump and anti-air them. The great thing is how satisfying it is when players do this for the first time, because it'll likely be the first instance where they've recognised and punished player behaviour as opposed to throwing out random special moves and hoping for the best.
On the flipside of this I'll sometimes have live matches (not in tournaments, obviously) where I'll impose handicaps on myself to stamp out bad habits - never doing X special move, never jumping, etc.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Are you actively trying to improve at SF or is it just a side-game thing? Which platform?
Trying to get good at 5. PS4
Karsticles
Member
I decided to just stick with Rachel to make it easy on myself. Cutting the number of strings I have to memorize in half from Helena and Lei Fang is going to help me adjust, I think.The only one I've had problems with is Ein's. It has 3 WS+k in the combo into 66kkk. I'm going to feel so badass when I finally hit it.
Cool seeing people give DoA a legit chance. I'm used to seeing people shit on it because boobs.
After I decide on a character, I'm the kind of guy that goes right to the frame data. In looking at Rachel's frame data, I noticed that:
1) FreeStepDodge's Wiki is pretty inadequate. Lots of missing info.
2) There's a color-code system of green/orange/red for frame advantage on block. What does it mean?
3) There are terms I don't understand, like "Delay Frames", NH (Neutral Hit?), CH (Counterhit), HCH (???), and BH (back hit?).
4) Positive frame advantage on block is pretty much not a thing. I counted one non-charged PB attack that was positive, and it's a long-range poke with lots of startup. I usually go for lots of positive frame advantage pokes on block for frame traps in games, but after looking through a few characters, that seems to...not be a thing in DoA. Am I right? What's my thought process in strings if they're all negative on block, with some being really negative on block?
5) What does (GB) mean under "Guard"?
6) When I look at a string like PPP, the execution data says "20(2)30". Is that startup/active/recovery, in order? Is it only showing the data for the third P, since the second P was taken care of in another section of the data?
7) What is a "fast" jab in DoA? I notice Rachel's P is 11 startup (based on 6's assumptions), which would be ridiculously slow in most fighters.
8) A lot of moves are apparently negative on hit. PP, for example, is -3 even on counterhit, which seems insane to me. Am I reading that right? Then it seems like pre-emptively ending a combo for a grab is rarely advisable.
9) What are "Hotzone Vaulting Attacks"? I don't remember those in Command Training.
10) What's a Cliffhanger attack?
11) What's KNB?
Her data for ease of reference:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/wiki/rachel-frame-data-doa5u/
Answered what I could.
Karsticles
Member
Thanks. This is all from FSD.
So according to FSD, PPP is a guard break...is that true?
That is correct.
Guard break in DOA aren't the same in other games. It's just frame advantage, usually, doesn't mean a free attack after.
ShinMaruku
Member
Their wiki is actually information rich, the issue is you don't have the vocabulary to get the most out of it.
You mostly have it right where green = safe orange means unsafe on block and red means you can be combos right after block.
Christie and Misty are hella misleading on their 9 frame jab,s yes faster poke in the game, both are unsafe and lead to where you can read them and blow them up the trick to them is to make people guess so you can do the follow up, when I play Misty I toss out the jab if they counter they are gonna eat this juciy 33 t and lost 90 life. XD
Vaulting attacks are in places with barriers you can knock people over you will them jump over and you are in a place to have a guaranteed launch or combo depending on your string.
You mostly have it right where green = safe orange means unsafe on block and red means you can be combos right after block.
Christie and Misty are hella misleading on their 9 frame jab,s yes faster poke in the game, both are unsafe and lead to where you can read them and blow them up the trick to them is to make people guess so you can do the follow up, when I play Misty I toss out the jab if they counter they are gonna eat this juciy 33 t and lost 90 life. XD
Vaulting attacks are in places with barriers you can knock people over you will them jump over and you are in a place to have a guaranteed launch or combo depending on your string.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
It's easy to practice simple combos in single player mode, if that would be more fun for you than training. That's how I learned SF basics in SF2. For more complicated combos, you might need to start in training mode, but there's no reason you can't practice those in vs CPU matches. Learning SF doesn't have to be "work" rather than "play" if you're willing to fight the CPU and/or can handle losing a lot online without being discouraged.
You can practice execution in the same way I recommended above, though doing shoryukens across the screen in training mode will be a much faster way to get a handle on execution. It really shouldn't take a ton of time to practice special moves to the point that they come out reliably 90% of the time.
As for range and priorities, that's another thing you can get a sense of through experience rather than formal study. Again, it might be slower going, but if it's more fun overall for you to slowly learn it intuitively rather than study it explicitly, that might make the difference between you sticking with it or giving up on the game.
If there's a particular character you are learning, maybe study their range and priorities a bit to help you practice the right things. As for learning every other character's shit so you'll be ready for all the matchups, I could never make myself do that and enjoy it, so again I recommend learning gradually by playing a lot. If a particular opponent gives you a lot of trouble, go to training mode, fight that character as CPU (on a high difficulty) and you'll develop a sense of that character's possibility space without resorting to spreadsheets and homework.
I think you're on the right track with trying to master simple combos. Those are the ones you'll be able to learn quickly and reliably execute under pressure. I get nervous online too, and that means my automatic responses tend to dominate. If it's the same for you (and it probably is for most people) then the key is to practice the right things to make them automatic. You need a good jump-in combo, and you need a good punish combo on the ground, and that will get you started. Eventually you'll habituate to the heightened arousal of online play and you'll be able to think more during a match. At that point you might want to do more formal study, but just playing a lot and paying attention to your failings will also work, albeit more slowly.
Gipsy Danger
Member
This is mostly just rinse/repeat. But people should try to do them in sets against friends so you don't get frustrated if you lose. Doing it in online ranked will just annoy you. There's still combos I won't ever do in ranked that I do in online/offline sets all the time.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
double post
Who in this thread is from Europe and an SF4/5 player? I'd like to help out people with actual matches on Steam or PS4 but seems like mostly everyone is North America or Asia
I'm from EU and on PS4.
Looking to improve with USF4 in preperation for V. Tried playing a match against someone in NA and the connection was terrible.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Who in this thread is from Europe and an SF4/5 player? I'd like to help out people with actual matches on Steam or PS4 but seems like mostly everyone is North America or Asia
Will be playing SFV, EU. Steam name is HolyZen. Am utter garbage though.
Also looking for anyone playing Xrd on the PC who's west europe (maybe east coast, that isn't too bad).