Support NeoGAF

[Grizzlyjin]

you cant honestly sit there and say it was a terrible episode? it wasn't.

stop being so angry all the time

this was a great episode.

Ummm yeah, I can. With no hyperbole. It was lazy. The bee episode last season was too, but that wasn't something they had been building to all season. It wasn't even a disappointing episode, I had basically no expectations for it. It was them piling plot contrivances on top of each other like a 6 foot Jenga tower.

I thought the Joe and Wally stuff was well done. But a "We're not so different" speech? Come on, that's Lazy Villain Monologuing 101. Wells not recognizing Jay all this time. Heck everyone on Earth 2 not recognizing him. Barry and everyone just being "Oh shucks Zoom escaped" until they realize Wally is gone. So there was no backup plan, at all? And then they get Wally back and decide to take away their only defense against the serial killer with superspeed because of a verbal agreement? Joe shot Earth 2 Wells on sight. But he has a gun in his hand and he's just going to watch Zoom get more powerful. It's all just so idiotic.

I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't know who Zoom was going to be when they started the season. It isn't exactly unprecedented. Arrow did a flashforward grave scene without knowing who would be killed off. Zoom giggling and being all "just according to keikaku" to explain how all the inconsistent stuff makes sense is a hard pill to swallow.

 

[RellyRell28]

We know Barry gets his speed back judged by the Arrow flashforward but I'm gonna skip next week because I despise heroes losing powers episodes.

Yeah those episode have never been that great with me.

 

[KonradLaw]

I've been down on his performance most of the year -- mostly because Jay is/was such a loser -- but I thought he had a legit bit of creepiness with this moment:

I love Jay's Zoom. Dude is so damn creepy and unhinged. Not his fault he's got idiots as rivals.

 

[ZeroX03]

they really had to go with the whole "we're not so different you and I" bit?

The whole season was about duality and parallels to the characters and the first season. So they had to shoehorn that in. Zoom is dark Barry! That's totally more interesting than Geoff Johns' original take. I wonder what Johns thinks? He's probably the second best Flash writer, and the best has already condemned the show.

 

[WedgeX]

So. What exactly is Zoom's end goal? Just not to die?

He's some kind of weird serial killer that only likes to kill police and Earth-2 villains.

 

[icespide]

this seasons really losing me. the only thing keeping me remotely interested in is whatever twist they pull with the iron mask guy

 

[Lashley]

Great episode.

I love the actor who's playing Zoom.

I wonder if it's Wally Flash in the metal mask?

 

[Joni]

The entire dimension hopping is stupid in the context that Barry can change dimensions himself... Which they completely ignored, without a single mention. Hell, I can forgive them that as the Barry-Cisco stuff was great. But damn, it went to hell when they explained Zoom. A willing time remnant waiting to be killed? That is stupid. And Jay being a famous serial killer doesn't work, we saw Jay and Wells together... Everyone recognizes his face, except the smart guy.

Oh Joni. You poor, poor thing.

Should have seen it coming based on the amount of posts. Could easily have been salvaged until Zoom came in the picture. They even forgot Barry's boyfriend.

 

[hwalker84]

The more I think about this the dumber it gets. So Zoom needs to steal speed to live. So you give him your speed knowing that he's going to continue to terrorize worlds and other Flashes to steal their speed? Come on son...

 

[BodiesWithoutOrgans]

Jay is so damn sexy

That is all

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

The more I think about this the dumber it gets. So Zoom needs to steal speed to live. So you give him your speed knowing that he's going to continue to terrorize worlds and other Flashes to steal their speed? Come on son...

God. So in theory they can literally starve him out since Reverb is gone, portals are closed, and Wells is on E1.

 

[ZeroX03]

At least Wally got the good plot comparatively this episode? Got a nice Joe scene and Barry got to say the right thing for the first time ever. Wally must be terrified of that house now though, that's a Zoom and a King Shark attack within a few weeks.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

"Am I too soon!? I'm too soon!" - The Flash when it comes to dealing with the ladies.

 

[Xamdou]

So Zoom said he isn't fast enough to make a speed clone but Barry summoned dozens of em easily?

 

[abundant]

So Zoom said he isn't fast enough to make a speed clone but Barry summoned dozens of em easily?

He wasn't fast enough to create a speed mirage that could appear on Earth-1 and Earth-2.

 

[MontyMarx]

My brain is still hurting from the end of the episode.

WHAT.

 

[morningbus]

Also, speed clone and a speed mirage are different things.

Speed clone/speed scout allows for autonomy and was the fan-assumption for what Jay was doing based off an ability a speedster in the comics has.

Speed mirage was what Reverse Flash was doing and is a trick of the eye more than anything.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

Whoever is in the mask is the "real" Jay Garrick. It has to be. Because as things are now, Jay Garrick just doesn't exist and I refuse to believe the writers would to that to the legacy of The Flash. Maybe he did exist but Zolomon stole his speed, took him out of time so no one remembers him, and threw an iron mask on his head for.... reasons.

Another issue I have with this episode.... it's one thing for a character to tell a lie in dialogue but we actually saw "Jay" fight Zoom before "Jay" came to Earth-1. So, at this point, it looks like that was a lie. Doesn't that feel a little cheap?

 

[More_Badass]

Best moment of the episode

 

[Joni]

The more I think about this the dumber it gets. So Zoom needs to steal speed to live. So you give him your speed knowing that he's going to continue to terrorize worlds and other Flashes to steal their speed? Come on son...

Maybe he only needed to steal the speed once, to replace his own?

Best moment of the episode

Do drugs kids! See how cool they make you look.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Zooms ultimate plan to get a Caitlyn threesome is almost complete.

 

[fallengorn]

Best moment of the episode

Jay totally sold that moment and the effects were great.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

I'm not sure if the writers or the director is to blame for the one scene where Zoom handed over Wally to Barry and then they stood there for a minute then proceeded to just give him what he wants. This scene was written completely backwards. Usually how a hostage scene works is that the bad guy holds on to the hostage until the good guys give him what he wants, because it's leverage. Why that scene wasn't written in that manner is highly confusing, because once the hostage is let go that should have given Barry multiple reasons to knock Zoom out.

In regards to him still existing after Jay died, I think it has the rules of the 'other timeline'. Examples of this rule include Barry traveling back in time for a moment to escape Weather Wizard or Barry traveling back when him and arrow lost in a fight and the city blew up. I assume that there is still a timeline where that's stuff still happens and the cities are in ruin. I'm guessing zoom managed to go between them and grab his echo/remnant that way. The only other way I see it happening is the confusing way they dealt with Eobard and how he somehow still needs to exist for the main story to happen.

Honestly, all Zoom had to do was say he grabbed his remnant from the far future instead of the past. It would have been a better answer to such an easily confusing question.

 

[BBboy20]

This is kind of sickening watching a man in the Jay helmet do this.

Tell me about it. :|

That orphanage dude was really blunt. Even people in Earth-2 realise their lives don't matter as much.

No wonder the breach is in a Children's Hospital, because Zoom's a clown.

https://youtu.be/Z6z-nxAYhGw?t=2m31s

I'm assuming the time remnant Jay is from another Earth. Otherwise

New update?

But seriously, they talk about being faster and yet...Barry really has yet to learn how to fight and even when they talk about outrunning Zoom, nobody really stated how they were going to stop him so...yeah...what the fuck has been happening to the Arrowverse? Because Suicide Squad and Bat Afleck are becoming the most hopeful out of DC live-action adaption....

I have felt this pain on Smallville. On Supernatural. On Vampire Diaries. On The Originals. On The 100.

I have suffered through the roughs of Nikita. I've watched the semi-enjoyable Reaper burn away. I have witnessed the death of Veronica Mars. When it was the WB, I watched Angel go from strength to weakness, to strength, to cancellation. I have watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer murder its best.

You have only tasted suffering. I have feasted on it, been forged by it into a weapon of hate and salt. And now I look back and see your weakness. I see your hope. I wish to cast it out of you. I want to make you harder. Like me.

.......................................................................................everything is going to be alright...............right?

Best moment of the episode

I actually chuckled at that too...

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

Best moment of the episode

You know, Joe was there, with a gun, and Hunter really wasn't paying attention, that really could have been an opportunity to shoot him in the back of the head at point blank range. Just sayin'

 

[Joni]

You know, Joe was there, with a gun, and Hunter really wasn't paying attention, that really could have been an opportunity to shoot him in the back of the head at point blank range. Just sayin'

Probably fast enough to catch a bullet.

 

[ZeroX03]

I'm not sure if the writers or the director is to blame for the one scene where Zoom handed over Wally to Barry and then they stood there for a minute then proceeded to just give him what he wants. This scene was written completely backwards. Usually how a hostage scene works is that the bad guy holds on to the hostage until the good guys give him what he wants, because it's leverage. Why that scene wasn't written in that manner is highly confusing, because once the hostage is let go that should have given Barry multiple reasons to knock Zoom out.

Why would it be the director's fault? They're just guns for hire in TV, they have no impact on the story or order of events. It's all on the writers.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

But seriously, they talk about being faster and yet...Barry really has yet to learn how to fight

All Barry needs to do is humble himself and go to team Arrow for some fighting sessions. It baffles me why he doesn't take the time to learn good fighting maneuvers so he can outfight Zoom.

Why would it be the director's fault? They're just guns for hire in TV, they have no impact on the story or order of events. It's all on the writers.

You're most likely right. It just baffles me that the writers from the amazing season 1 managed to mess up this one scene the most out of many odd scenes in this episode.

 

[Joni]

Why would it be the director's fault? They're just guns for hire in TV, they have no impact on the story or order of events. It's all on the writers.

They at least have powers to work on awkward scenes like that. Maybe get someone to write a "I'll kill everyone if you try something" in there.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

Probably fast enough to catch a bullet.

Not when it's from behind and he's half way through

Spoiler

an orgasm

.

 

[Ragnaroz]

I'm not sure if the writers or the director is to blame for the one scene where Zoom handed over Wally to Barry and then they stood there for a minute then proceeded to just give him what he wants. This scene was written completely backwards. Usually how a hostage scene works is that the bad guy holds on to the hostage until the good guys give him what he wants, because it's leverage. Why that scene wasn't written in that manner is highly confusing, because once the hostage is let go that should have given Barry multiple reasons to knock Zoom out.

I've thought about that too, but it really seems like Barry still couldn't quite beat Zoom even with the upgrade he got. So what's to stop Zoom from killing everyone in that room after releasing Wally? That's why he probably didn't need a hostage anymore.

 

[Red Hood]

Wow, so tense. I'm so excited to see how Barry - without his powers - takes down Zoom.

Spoiler

Not.

Superhero trope 101, oh my goodness what will they do now?

At least they "explained" how good-guy Jay fits in all this. For a minute there I was getting pissed off thinking they'd seriously make the rookie mistake of thinking good-guy Jay = Zoom, while they've all seen Jay die in front of them.

Totally not satisfied right now, not what I expected from the Zoom encounter. They have to up it by a million for the season finale if they want to end it on a high note and wash away this bad taste. Shame, season started so well but for me it seems to have collapsed by the stupid Jay twist. Still interested in the Iron Mask guy though.

 

[Joni]

Not when it's from behind and he's half way through

Spoiler

an orgasm

.

If Barry can do it, Zoom can as well.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

If Barry can do it, Zoom can as well.

But again Barry wasn't distracted having a speedgasm there.

 

[ZeroX03]

They at least have powers to work on awkward scenes like that. Maybe get someone to write a "I'll kill everyone if you try something" in there.

They have a tiny bit of leeway, but "working" on scenes is tough in TV. It's a week to shoot a lot, they go pretty by the numbers and this particular director is certainly a TV guy. Plus we don't know what was cut in the editing room. Kevin Smith's episode came in at 55 minutes before being cut down to 42.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

They have a tiny bit of leeway, but "working" on scenes is tough in TV. It's a week to shoot a lot, they go pretty by the numbers and this particular director is certainly a TV guy. Plus we don't know what was cut in the editing room. Kevin Smith's episode came in at 55 minutes before being cut down to 42.

Yeah and with Jason Mewes being in The Flash it seems like they even gave Kevin Smith a little more leeway than usual since he's a famous director. For just the run of the mill TV director for shows like this, I think they're pretty tied to the script.

 

[ZeroX03]

Yeah and with Jason Mewes being in The Flash it seems like they even gave Kevin Smith a little more leeway than usual since he's a famous director. For just the run of the mill TV director for shows like this, I think they're pretty tied to the script.

Jason Mewes was the writers idea, they offered the Easter egg/cameo rather than Kev asking

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

Jason Mewes was the writers idea, they offered the Easter egg rather than Kev asking

Snoogans!

 

[TheOddOne]

I'm a little late to the party but

You da man, brah.

 

[Kyoufu]

I still stand by my sex analogy. The Flash's lows are still so damn entertaining.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Which episode is Kevin Smith's?

 

[Magwik]

Which episode is Kevin Smith's?

Episode 20. 2 weeks from now.

 

[Mathieran]

Out of all the lazy and bad things that occurred during the episode, Zoom all the sudden being able to travel between the two earths is probably the worst.

 

[PreFire]

So the man in the mask.. Either it's Earth 1 Eddie (idk why he would be kept prisoner, or why he would tap out Jay)

Earth 2 Wally (i know we saw blonde hairs, but earth 2 Wally could have dyed it lol)

Earth 2 Jay Garrick. (There has to be a real Jay Garrick in this. DC/CW can't just shit on the OG flash. He's a twin separated at birth, which is why he told Barry he wouldn't believe him if he told him. This would explain why there was a good guy flash on earth 2, because Jay Garrick was coincidentally effected by the PA explosion and he became the flash. What I don't understand is, did the squabble between him and Wells really exist, or did it just so happen begin after Hunter assumed his identity? )


I just want to know who shaves and grooms him? Not to mention where they shit, piss and if they even get fed.

Just way too many plot holes this episode.

Younger Hunter, the one that banged Caitlyn, is a time remnant that somehow delivers memories to future/current Hunter but when he fucking dies, nothing happens. Unless he's from an alternate timeline, that shit is fucking dumb. And him simply not crushing Barry's neck while Caitlyn annoyingly plead with him, was another dumb move. Like yeah, this fucking psycho, speed addict, is going to care about a relationship that should have been meaningless to him because it was part of his plan.

There were a few highlights though. So fucking glad Iris didn't go on a date with her scumbag of a boss. (Dude just wants to hit it, obviously) I just hope it doesn't turn into Ollicity (when she dates Barry) because I'll just quit the show.

Cisco, come on bro. You're not going to turn into Vader. Practice your powers, you are the key to defeating zoom. Reverb gave you a hint, although he acted like he could take zoom without much effort... Only to die in a split second.

Joe has to fucking stop mentioning Barry when he's talking to Wally. Seriously, the kid still hasn't fully accepted him. Stop bringing his name up when you're trying to bond with him bro. Fuck

And why can't the writers just choose a Barry skilled between "holy shit I'm the dumbest hero alive" and "omnipotent kick everyone's ass with no problem"? Just meet halfway.. Give us a smarter, not pussy, never needs everyone's help, Barry. Like the cocky Barry that showed up in the crossover on Arrow to rescue team arrow from Ra's hideout when they were caged up.

 

[Magwik]

Out of all the lazy and bad things that occurred during the episode, Zoom all the sudden being able to travel between the two earths is probably the worst.

Cisco opened a portal yo

 

[morningbus]

I just want to know who shaves and grooms him? Not to mention where they shit, piss and if they even get fed.

Do you, though?

 

[Ecliptor]

Another issue I have with this episode.... it's one thing for a character to tell a lie in dialogue but we actually saw "Jay" fight Zoom before "Jay" came to Earth-1. So, at this point, it looks like that was a lie. Doesn't that feel a little cheap?

Good point. I wonder how the helmet came through the breach in season 1.

 

[Kyoufu]

Whoever is in the mask is the "real" Jay Garrick. It has to be. Because as things are now, Jay Garrick just doesn't exist and I refuse to believe the writers would to that to the legacy of The Flash. Maybe he did exist but Zolomon stole his speed, took him out of time so no one remembers him, and threw an iron mask on his head for.... reasons.

Another issue I have with this episode.... it's one thing for a character to tell a lie in dialogue but we actually saw "Jay" fight Zoom before "Jay" came to Earth-1. So, at this point, it looks like that was a lie. Doesn't that feel a little cheap?

Good point. I wonder how the helmet came through the breach in season 1.

You should never take a mysterious character's version of events as fact. He was probably running around as The Flash when the sky opened and sucked the helmet.

 

[Nafai1123]

Out of all the lazy and bad things that occurred during the episode, Zoom all the sudden being able to travel between the two earths is probably the worst.

I didn't really have much of a problem with that. I mean, the Flash travels to Supergirl world before Cisco reopens the portal just because he's 4x faster. Of all the problems with the episode it seemed the least offensive.

Theory time:

Spoiler

The man in the iron mask is Earth-X Jay Garrick/The Flash. At some point in the past Zoom was able to access another earth, where he found that his doppleganger was adopted, given a different name and raised right and is a superhero. They fight, Zoom wins and steals his power and keeps him locked up for his own amusement of torturing his better self from another world. That's where he gets the idea of being The Flash to begin with and poses as him on Earth 2.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

You should never take a mysterious character's version of events as fact. He was probably running around as The Flash when the sky opened and sucked the helmet.

You're probably right about how it happened. I just find it weird that we've never seen something fake happen on screen before. If he had just told the story without visuals that would have been one thing, but since we saw it in a flashback I feel that's more of the producers/writers lying to us than the character.