Psychotext
Member
Believe it or not, that's the hard.
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The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| End of the Webber Era
- Thread starter Leunam
- Start date
We all know the tires are complete trash, but doesn't this one look more like it was flat spotted?
The rest of the tire is just full bits of clag that get picked up post race to add weight to the car.
RukusProvider
Banned
As you can see by the lettering color, its hard.
The season is a fuckin joke thanks to Pirelli and Fia. Both should foot equal blame.
Every season will always bring it's own set of circumstances. Whether it's
Everyone has garbage tyres. I'm just constantly seeing that the winners are always those that get through that season's "circumstances".
To add, Vettel is the Mourinho of F1. When he wins, it's because of his talent, when he loses, It's everyone elses fault.
- Double Drs
- Refueling
- Tyre Wear
- Team Orders
Everyone has garbage tyres. I'm just constantly seeing that the winners are always those that get through that season's "circumstances".
To add, Vettel is the Mourinho of F1. When he wins, it's because of his talent, when he loses, It's everyone elses fault.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Unless all teams (bar the shit ones at the back) vote for a change, nothing should change.. You can't change the game rules after starting, you will immediately favor some over some.. That's not fair and should not happen.
If Lotus, Ferrari or any other team whether they did a good job or lucked into it this year, they deserve this level of success so why take away their advantage because the rest don't like it?
It's like Brawn GP and the DD
If Lotus, Ferrari or any other team whether they did a good job or lucked into it this year, they deserve this level of success so why take away their advantage because the rest don't like it?
It's like Brawn GP and the DD
PdotMichael
Banned
That's the worst argument ever. It's like playing ball sports with a flat ball, everyone plays with the same flat ball but what's the point of playing the game?
And I think it's not good that not the driver and the design of the car are the main factors if a driver/team can win the race or not but that a third party decides it.
It even worse than 2005 and 2006 with the stupid Michelin vs. Bridgestrone battle.
Ok. So if they fix the tyres to only need 2 stops per race you'll be happy? You'll see, they'll probably fix the tyres in 2 races time and then watch Vettel or Alonso have this championship decided by Singapore and see the complaints come up. Everyone for some strange reason has this belief that the tyres lasting longer will fix everything, and that their respective driver or team will do better overnight. I really don't see it. The teams that adapt or have a great car and updates suceed, with a great driver of course. Red bull was supposed to be slowed down after rule changes, double diffusers, flex wings and engine pressure changes, one after the other and here we are with Vettel leading the WDC years later. The tyres will get fixed, it won't change much. Vettel, Alonso and Kimi will still be in the top and the championship will continue to be either awesome or horribly dull. I'd rather enjoy the season with the cards that were dealt.
PdotMichael
Banned
Yes, I think racing would be better if we see that drivers pushing the car and don't nurse the car from the very first lap.
I watch F1 for the combination of driving and engineering skills and not for the micky mouse entertainment.
Or I'm the only one who dislike that the only reason that Vettel and Alonso won the races in Bahrain and Spain in such a dominant (boring) way was only because the tires? So you can't even say the races were that exciting this year.
But you must have missed all the analysis from the Buxtons, the Lauers and all the other people on TV . Ferrari and Lotus were pushing the cars! that's why they were on the podium this weekend! Alonso and Kimi are this dangerous with garbage tyres and you want them to only stop twice now? The season will be over in 8 weeks time. I think you're not seeing the fact that the winners aren't nursing tyres but pushing their pace. I think some teams are taking that old quote from racings early days "the leather will fall off eventually, might as well push" and they are winning. I think maybe who you want to win didnt push their car. And you're buying their tyres "excuse". Imagine if Hamilton would of said years ago "I would totally of won the race if I had a double diffuser and a flex wing sniff sniff". I hope they fix the tyres so we can eliminate excuses, but the facts are that Alonso was passing dudes within the first 5 laps and Kimi passes them sometimes during the last 15 when their tyres are dead. 2 different strategies one same outcome, podium finishes.
PdotMichael
Banned
And Red Bull and Vettel who won the race in Bahrain were not giving the best? Or Rosberg and Hamilton who are also extremly fast but the car can't handle the tires for some reason?
The problem is that teams and drivers are not giving the best but there is no acceptable explenation why Vettel was 38s ahead of Alonso in Bahrain and three weeks later was Alonso 38s ahead of Vettel.
There is a gap of 76s only because a team can get the tires to work for unpredictable reasons.
Psychotext
Member
Ferrari were, Kimi was on a three stop and was just able to stay out longer (and go faster with that) than other cars because they're so much easier on the tyres.
That aside, Pdot basically covers the problem well. Consistency. Sure, the same four teams are basically fast but it's a lottery as to which one will be fast on any one weekend. I don't even think the teams themselves have a clue how it will go until race day when we see how hot / cold the track is.
Alonso had no DRS and had to make two consecutive stops in early stage of the race. It's pretty impressive that he finished only 38 secs behind.
No, have you got a link to that?
Evolution_1ne
Banned
Couldn't tell from the blistering but WOW, I mean I remember the softs being utter shit but hards don't last either, WTF is this shit. How do they expect anyone to race like this, they do know this is about racing right...
Nicktendo86
Member
When we are at the point when they can fall apart, without warning, like they did for Di Resta, something NEEDS to be done. They are bloody dangerous!
There are plenty of explanations. The tyres are for from being the only thing that changed. The cars, the weather, the track, all are different. Changing spec mid season rewards mediocrity. The rules were agreed, all teams have the same base to work from. The only thing that should cause a mid season spec change is a safety concern, which I think is starting to be a valid concern given the last race.
Business
Member
Agree on all fronts. Probably a more realistic picture wouldn't have outraged people so much.
Exactly.
gutterboy44
Member
If anyone should appreciate the reversal of an idea gone too far it is Kimi. Remember when the awful no tire change rule was in effect and this happened?
I really, really do not want the momentum to be taken away from Kimi and Alonso and back into RBR's hands, which might not even happen anyway, but the cars are unsafe. The explosive delaminations are going to hurt something or someone other than lap times at some point.
Didn't something like this already happen a few seasons ago, even after Vettel was already dominating? There were a series of races in a row where no one was even bother finishing Q3 after Vettel set a lap because the tire life was so minimal and precious. They need to make the tires last longer. If Ferrari and Lotus are still gentle on them, ideally they should be able to push them even harder and longer than Merc and RBR. But right now it is hindering the series as a whole and at the very least pretty damn unsafe.
I really, really do not want the momentum to be taken away from Kimi and Alonso and back into RBR's hands, which might not even happen anyway, but the cars are unsafe. The explosive delaminations are going to hurt something or someone other than lap times at some point.
Didn't something like this already happen a few seasons ago, even after Vettel was already dominating? There were a series of races in a row where no one was even bother finishing Q3 after Vettel set a lap because the tire life was so minimal and precious. They need to make the tires last longer. If Ferrari and Lotus are still gentle on them, ideally they should be able to push them even harder and longer than Merc and RBR. But right now it is hindering the series as a whole and at the very least pretty damn unsafe.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
True, but if the situation for everyone was the same it would be fair to change the rules/tyres/whatever. In this case you have team losing due to a common factor and others gaining. Why change the common factor?
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
First. I hate you for reminding me of that awful race. Second, you're right in what you say, but this should be addressed for the next season and not in the middle of a season.
Now imagine this scenario. Alonso and Kimi leading the championship by a good margin. Come silverstone, tyres changed and immediately Mercedes and Redbull start dominating and eventually one of their drivers wins the WDC. Do you think its fair?
gutterboy44
Member
I know, it sucks. It really is lose lose. It is a fine line of teams overcoming poor rules/regulations or just down right stupid rules/regulations. The Brawn domination with the whole double diffuser was fine, they were the smarter team and it got them a championship but it made the sport dull as hell and just because one team exploited the rules the most, the competitions was meaningless for half the season. I didn't want to see a team that was the better team have their accomplishment taken away by a massive mid season overhaul but it wouldn't be the first time it has happened. I guess it is about winning as a constructor or winning as a driver and all of the shades of grey in between.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
The year being dull or not should not be a factor in the decision process. In Brawn GP's year, teams were arguing the legality of the Brawn car, and although it was one of the most boring F1 seasons no rules were changed and teams had to adapt.
So why change the tyres this year. you don't even have a clear dominant car. You might argue that Lotus and Ferrari are the best in managing them, yet you have Redbull winning 2 of 5 races and leading both championships! so it's actually 3 teams that are doing well, or competing closely. By changing the tyres now you risk giving Redbull the advantage and let them run away the championships. That risk for sure is something no F1 fan (bar Redbull's) would like Pirelli to take
gutterboy44
Member
My main complaint is the tires are the dominant "conversation" and something is not right. I don't think they need to completely over haul the tires to throw the title in RBR's lap, but when your front row goes backwards like that in a race (excluding Mark Webber, who may be the worst starter F1 has ever seen, short of engaging reverse or detonating on the grid like the ol' Jordan Honda era) and you see multiple cars with their tires fully delaminating within a 3-4 stop race, the sport has shot itself in the foot. This isn't endurance racing. I don't want to know who is the most conservative driver. I want to see the fastest cars in the world being pushed to the limit by the fastest drivers in the world. But sure, if it gets Kimi or Alonso another title, via most gentle on the rubber, fuck it. It wouldn't be the lamest championship title by a long shot.
We should probably changle the thread title though, The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| *radio squak* Look After Your Tires
Why me?
I can only imagine if Ferrari was the team complaining about tyres and Pirelli changed them mid-season. The whole Ferrari International Assistance saga ad nauseam...
Now Red Bull whines because they designed the car with aero as the main priority and they are paying the consequences of their mistake, and now they want a free jail card and Pirelli to save them from their mistake? Other teams like Lotus developed the car thinking about the tyres and now mid-season they are screwing them from being smart. Fantastic.
I'm sorry but changing something mid-season (unless the tyres continue to laminate and there is concrete proof that the problem is structural) would be the perfect way to ruin a championship by favoring teams that were unable to develop a car properly.
Now Red Bull whines because they designed the car with aero as the main priority and they are paying the consequences of their mistake, and now they want a free jail card and Pirelli to save them from their mistake? Other teams like Lotus developed the car thinking about the tyres and now mid-season they are screwing them from being smart. Fantastic.
I'm sorry but changing something mid-season (unless the tyres continue to laminate and there is concrete proof that the problem is structural) would be the perfect way to ruin a championship by favoring teams that were unable to develop a car properly.
gutterboy44
Member
I think that is pretty fair. The delaminations seem concerning due the way they dramatically fail, but if it is just too much camber or shitty driving and not an inherent defect, it shouldn't change.
Totally agree if Ferrari were complaining and the tyres were changes as a consequence the would be uproar and the thread full of Ferrari international assistance jokes etc etc
Nope, no link. Just rampant speculation by Radio Pitlane.
Looks like Bernies arraignment moves forward fast, and that he´s not going to keep his job. Horner got even asked directly, if he´s next for the job, and he answered, somewhat cryptically, that no one would be able to do what Bernie does. So much for a denial.
Some teams even commented along the lines of "it will be fun to see how he does all of F1, when he can´t even control his two drivers".
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
I really do think Pirelli will improve the life of the tyres, but that's it. I don't think they will go out of their way to please everybody. There are some big facts to consider though, Ferrari has a great car, Kimi is still a fantastic driver, and Mclaren put out a dog this year. The tyres won't change much except maybe getting Red Bull to win again.
At this stage of the season, they cant please everybody. If they could, they would.
Tires change everything. i firmly believe that with tires that only require 1-2 stops, red bull would run away with this championship - and they know it too
Um, back from 3500 km Eurotrip. Made 1000 km today in 10 hours. Only to see that i failed hard at prediction, but it wasn't my fault - my GF played with it and ranked the drivers as she wanted 
Off topic for all from Belgium - what the hell is wrong with your highways? More holes than tarmac on several parts
Off topic for all from Belgium - what the hell is wrong with your highways? More holes than tarmac on several parts
Um, back from 3500 km Eurotrip. Made 1000 km today in 10 hours. Only to see that i failed hard at prediction, but it wasn't my fault - my GF played with it and ranked the drivers as she wanted
Off topic for all from Belgium - what the hell is wrong with your highways? More holes than tarmac on several parts
It's not only the highways, most roads are shit here. Yet there's always construction going on somewhere.
I also felt that on my suspension, when I drove to Spa
Highway from the Netherlands to Brussels and Arlon is quite ok, but that from Arlon to Liege is battered.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
My only issue with the tires is the delamination that seems to occur under normal operating conditions.
As long as the tires are consistently bad/good and the same for every different type of tire the teams will eventually figure them out.
We'll still get bored as shit later in the season as Vettel dominates the southeast asian races.
As long as the tires are consistently bad/good and the same for every different type of tire the teams will eventually figure them out.
We'll still get bored as shit later in the season as Vettel dominates the southeast asian races.
Those voice overs on American TV is hilarious.
This isn't necessarily targeted at you, just using your post as a platform
That was the FIA's fault for not closing that loophole in the rules. They also made it clear that was the last time they would allow an exploited loophole to remain in play for the rest of a season.
The tyres are Pirelli's fault. The FIA and the teams asked them to make tyres that would make the racing more interesting, they did that, and then went too far. They should absolutely make the tyres more durable from Silverstone onwards.
I'm honestly flabbergasted that people are actually arguing for Pirelli to keep these tyres. This isn't a "it's the same for everyone" situation. Okay yes, it IS the same for everyone, but we're watching the best drivers in the world driving to a tyre delta instead of racing to the line.
Sure, bring up the "but the best drivers in the world should be able to handle these tyres" line. Yes fine, the best drivers should be able to manage the tyres well - but when Formula 1 has gone from; 'quickest car & driver combination' to 'the car that treats it's tyres the best', something has gone terribly, awfully wrong.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
This isn't necessarily targeted at you, just using your post as a platform
That was the FIA's fault for not closing that loophole in the rules. They also made it clear that was the last time they would allow an exploited loophole to remain in play for the rest of a season.
The tyres are Pirelli's fault. The FIA and the teams asked them to make tyres that would make the racing more interesting, they did that, and then went too far. They should absolutely make the tyres more durable from Silverstone onwards.
I'm honestly flabbergasted that people are actually arguing for Pirelli to keep these tyres. This isn't a "it's the same for everyone" situation. Okay yes, it IS the same for everyone, but we're watching the best drivers in the world driving to a tyre delta instead of racing to the line.
Sure, bring up the "but the best drivers in the world should be able to handle these tyres" line. Yes fine, the best drivers should be able to manage the tyres well - but when Formula 1 has gone from; 'quickest car & driver combination' to 'the car that treats it's tyres the best', something has gone terribly, awfully wrong.
I do agree with you. Tyres ARE shit, and shouldn't be the main foxus of F1. I'm only against changing them mid-season, especially that not all the teams are complaining about them
This isn't necessarily targeted at you, just using your post as a platform
Sure, bring up the "but the best drivers in the world should be able to handle these tyres" line. Yes fine, the best drivers should be able to manage the tyres well - but when Formula 1 has gone from; 'quickest car & driver combination' to 'the car that treats it's tyres the best', something has gone terribly, awfully wrong.
If F1 was truly a "Quickest car & driver combination" formula then Fernando Alonso would have 0 championships instead of 2 because in 2005 Kimi and McLaren were by far the fastest car and driver and still lost the championship because they developed a car too unreliable while Renault opted for a more conservative approach. In 2006 Ferrari also had the best car and driver but Bridgestone vs. Michelin favored Renault in critical points of the season.
Funny but who developed the 2005 McLaren MP4-20 without thinking about reliability and ended up costing the championship? The same person that developed the 2013 Red Bull without thinking about tyre degradation. And tyres also decided the 2006 championship. This myth that F1 stopped being about fastest cars and drivers didn't happened because Pirelli, it's always been this way, like always who wins is the best package not the fastest package...
I like that idea a lot.
Drivers always have to manage something on their car. Even if the tyres lasted a whole race, they would need managing, as per the seasons without pit stops. That was the criticism then, too. That drivers had to manage their tyres. There has never been a period when a driver has been able to drive flat out all race unless they were pitting more than the teams around them.This isn't necessarily targeted at you, just using your post as a platform
That was the FIA's fault for not closing that loophole in the rules. They also made it clear that was the last time they would allow an exploited loophole to remain in play for the rest of a season.
The tyres are Pirelli's fault. The FIA and the teams asked them to make tyres that would make the racing more interesting, they did that, and then went too far. They should absolutely make the tyres more durable from Silverstone onwards.
I'm honestly flabbergasted that people are actually arguing for Pirelli to keep these tyres. This isn't a "it's the same for everyone" situation. Okay yes, it IS the same for everyone, but we're watching the best drivers in the world driving to a tyre delta instead of racing to the line.
Sure, bring up the "but the best drivers in the world should be able to handle these tyres" line. Yes fine, the best drivers should be able to manage the tyres well - but when Formula 1 has gone from; 'quickest car & driver combination' to 'the car that treats it's tyres the best', something has gone terribly, awfully wrong.
Managing your tires so that they last to meet the pit stop delta, and managing your tires so that they don't just disintegrate while you're cornering at 100mph are two totally different things.