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The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| End of the Webber Era
- Thread starter Leunam
- Start date
My heart goes out to the family of the track marshal. What a tragedy! RIP
Now for some goings on:
You probably heard about the four more 2day tests starting next year. Here is the low down.
The large teams extorted the small teams to agree. They had to take the vote twice to get the result they hoped for. Bernie supports the idea due to pressure from RBR and FER.
On the first vote Merc, LOT, FOI, WIL, TOR and CAT voted against. On the second vote Merc changed their stance - I don´t know yet why.
The problem is, eight more test days cost about 10 mil more (testing team, another chassis, 1 mil per engine used). The small teams are money strapped as it is, and this could be the final straw. To put this in numbers: Experts estimate the fixed costs to run a F1 team a full season at 65 mil. This means, that f.i. Marussia with a budget of 70 mil has about 5 mil to spend on development for the full season. FOI with 80 mil budget has 15. So 10 mil more would clearly force teams to the brink, or even over the cliff.
So why did SAU and MAR vote for this, and not against? Because FER would have raised the engine costs for this teams, so basically bought/coerced their votes.
The big teams in return agreed to limit wind tunnel testing from 40 to 30 hours a week, computer capacity from 40 to 30 teraflops, and the possibility to exchange test days 1:1 into wind tunnel hours.
These are restrictions, that are impossible to verify. For example:
Wind tunnel hours only count upwards of 15m/s wind speed. Teams already interpret the wind tunnel warmup very differently. RBR only counts wind tunnel hours when the thing runs at full speed, arguing that their wind tunnel is so old that it takes very long until its at full speed.
In the end that's the main strategy of RBR, accepting many small and almost impossible to verify regulations, instead of one big regulation like the financial cap that had been discussed.
In this context is also Dr. Markos interview, where he stated that he wants Merc to be severely punished, otherwise they´d never agree to a cap.
So why do the big teams do this all? The thinking is, they are killing the small teams on purpose. The plan is, to force the small teams out of building their own cars, and selling them chassis. For the big fish that's the only way to justify the bloated teams of up to 600 people - which they couldn´t keep within a financial cap.
IMHO the result of this policy would destroy the sport. The number of chassis manufacturers would decrease very fast, as no team would want to buy a "slow" chassis. We would have a situation where teams would either switch chassis midseason, even several times; or teams bound to longterm contracts, forcing them to drive behind for years.
Just look at the IndyCar series of the late 80s early 90s.
Now for some goings on:
You probably heard about the four more 2day tests starting next year. Here is the low down.
The large teams extorted the small teams to agree. They had to take the vote twice to get the result they hoped for. Bernie supports the idea due to pressure from RBR and FER.
On the first vote Merc, LOT, FOI, WIL, TOR and CAT voted against. On the second vote Merc changed their stance - I don´t know yet why.
The problem is, eight more test days cost about 10 mil more (testing team, another chassis, 1 mil per engine used). The small teams are money strapped as it is, and this could be the final straw. To put this in numbers: Experts estimate the fixed costs to run a F1 team a full season at 65 mil. This means, that f.i. Marussia with a budget of 70 mil has about 5 mil to spend on development for the full season. FOI with 80 mil budget has 15. So 10 mil more would clearly force teams to the brink, or even over the cliff.
So why did SAU and MAR vote for this, and not against? Because FER would have raised the engine costs for this teams, so basically bought/coerced their votes.
The big teams in return agreed to limit wind tunnel testing from 40 to 30 hours a week, computer capacity from 40 to 30 teraflops, and the possibility to exchange test days 1:1 into wind tunnel hours.
These are restrictions, that are impossible to verify. For example:
Wind tunnel hours only count upwards of 15m/s wind speed. Teams already interpret the wind tunnel warmup very differently. RBR only counts wind tunnel hours when the thing runs at full speed, arguing that their wind tunnel is so old that it takes very long until its at full speed.
In the end that's the main strategy of RBR, accepting many small and almost impossible to verify regulations, instead of one big regulation like the financial cap that had been discussed.
In this context is also Dr. Markos interview, where he stated that he wants Merc to be severely punished, otherwise they´d never agree to a cap.
So why do the big teams do this all? The thinking is, they are killing the small teams on purpose. The plan is, to force the small teams out of building their own cars, and selling them chassis. For the big fish that's the only way to justify the bloated teams of up to 600 people - which they couldn´t keep within a financial cap.
IMHO the result of this policy would destroy the sport. The number of chassis manufacturers would decrease very fast, as no team would want to buy a "slow" chassis. We would have a situation where teams would either switch chassis midseason, even several times; or teams bound to longterm contracts, forcing them to drive behind for years.
Just look at the IndyCar series of the late 80s early 90s.
horrible news, RIP, the way the marshals scrambled to clean the track lacked a bit of coordination, wanted to do it quicker than they should... a safety car would have been the right thing to do really, next crash implying a crane will see a safety car deployed even if the wreckage is parked miles away from the tarmac.
I don´t necessarily disagree, but: the accident happened AFTER the race was over, so a SC wouldn´t have made a difference.
The marshal in question helped balance the car on the crane, lost his walkie-talkie, bend down to retrieve it, stumbled and fell, and was overrun before he could get up again. Very tragic.
Really sucks to hear about the marshal. When the crane was brought onto track to remove the car in the last 4 laps, one of the commentators here commented that it was probably more dangerous to bring the marshals and the crane onto the track like that, than to just leave the car where it was at the barriers. I don't think he quite envisioned a scenario where a tragic accident like this would happen with no relation to the race itself, but it turned out to be pretty ominous. 
Customer chassis would kill the sport. Quick as a flash. Terrible idea.
Fuuuuuck. That doesn't sound good at all. Thanks for fleshing it out, though... is very interesting. But we don't need fewer teams :/
RBR sure makes a good run to the very top of my shit list...
Nicktendo86
Member
So the story of this weekend's GP (other than the poor marshal, RIP) has to be that McLaren are now, officially, a midfield team. The utter fuck up that has been this car just blows my mind, how heads have not yet rolled I have no idea.
PdotMichael
Banned
Do you have any kind of source for the new regulations?
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
It pains me that betting on Vettel is what it takes to get back past Adamm :'(
Jerks are in the table!!
I got 52 points.. I haven't changed my predictions since the initial setup on Melbourne
Why just RBR though? FER's engine price extortion isn't exactly admirable either.
Right now its a rule proposal, to be signed into law on June 27th by FIA World Council. I´m sure they´ll give a press release then.
The regs themselves are still being discussed. Right now it stands at:
- 4 more 2day tests, to be held after GP´s of Spain, Germany, Hungary and Belgium
- aero test drives to be scrapped (aero test = 4 days, max 250km per day, only to be held on ex-airports or round circuits (those were rather cheap, at 250k a pop))
- promotion days reduced from 8 to 2 (100km a pop)
- 3 newcomer testdays to be scrapped
- windtunnel reduced from 40h to 30h a week
- computer capacity reduced from 40 to 30 teraflop
- every testday can be exchanged 1:1 for windtunnel (concession to the smaller teams)
- regular test would be 4days in Jerez January 21st, two test weeks in Katar and or Bahrain and or Abu Dhabi (gulf states for sure)
- season would start March 2nd in Bahrain
FER is the current champion on said list!
Whitmarsh is incompetent, Sam Michaels also. It is just incredible how bad are they this year - even technical staff is running away from them.
Right now its a rule proposal, to be signed into law on June 27th by FIA World Council. I´m sure they´ll give a press release then.
The regs themselves are still being discussed. Right now it stands at:
- 4 more 2day tests, to be held after GP´s of Spain, Germany, Hungary and Belgium
- aero test drives to be scrapped (aero test = 4 days, max 250km per day, only to be held on ex-airports or round circuits (those were rather cheap, at 250k a pop))
- promotion days reduced from 8 to 2 (100km a pop)
- 3 newcomer testdays to be scrapped
- windtunnel reduced from 40h to 30h a week
- computer capacity reduced from 40 to 30 teraflop
- every testday can be exchanged 1:1 for windtunnel (concession to the smaller teams)
- regular test would be 4days in Jerez January 21st, two test weeks in Katar and or Bahrain and or Abu Dhabi (gulf states for sure)
- season would start March 2nd in Bahrain
FER is the current champion on said list!
How do they enforce the teraflop and wind tunnel restrictions today?
RBR have officially made it to the black-pages of my book.
I was really shocked to see the news of the marshal. I didn't know he'd been hit, but Martin Brundle saying how he didn't see the point of bringing the truck out when there was 4 laps remaining.. I agree with him, and it was uncanny, linking the two together when I read the news.
I remember the last death in F1. Melbourne 2001. Villenueve and Ralf Schumacher coming together. I remember it so vividly, because later, at some meeting, Villeneuve had made a remark that Montoya couldn't drive properly, and Montoya responded that at least his wheels didn't kill marshals. And Villenueve jumped the table at the throat of Montoya. Honestly, I can't blame him. And I remember the wheel at Monza the year before. We've come so long when it comes to wheel safety. Such a shame, but in a way, at least it wasn't directly caused by the race, as someone being hit by something. It means this sport is still at the top of security. I'm sure someone will look into the safety of the crane vehicles, because someone has to keep the car balanced, and walking next to a truck like that... well..
Teams have to send their proceedings in writing to FIA, who has to approve them. FIA then has the right to conduct spot checks (is that the right translation for "Stichprobe"?).
I´m not aware of how often, if any, of those spot checks they really make.
PdotMichael
Banned
Though I don't see how Red Bull could force the smaller teams to vote for any changes.
Unlike Ferrari or Mercedes they don't build and sell own engines.
That Red Bull would love to invest more money is obviously but I don't see how they can force other teams, so not sure how they are suddenly the main bad boys again. Reminds me on the Mercedes/tires story where some people put the focus on Red Bull although they were and are not the only one who were furious about the Mercedes' secret test.
Unlike Ferrari or Mercedes they don't build and sell own engines.
That Red Bull would love to invest more money is obviously but I don't see how they can force other teams, so not sure how they are suddenly the main bad boys again. Reminds me on the Mercedes/tires story where some people put the focus on Red Bull although they were and are not the only one who were furious about the Mercedes' secret test.
Stick probe sounds much more awesome. "We're here to stick-probe you".
Yeah, yeah, I know. We call it "stikkprøve"
RBR doesn´t pressure the small teams - they directly pressure FIA. And Bernie knows which side his bread is buttered...
Yeah I can totally see this! LOL
Yeah, saw that today while GAF was self detonating. I'm hoping next year's rules shake things up. I don't hate Vettel but I want more competition. I like Sebastian Loeb but he's the main reason I stopped watching/following the WRC. Vettel's about to accomplish the same thing for me in F1.
RukusProvider
Banned
Good. He seems to have good synergy with the team and they work well together.
With Webber out next season hopefully they can bring over Kimi or promote one of the junior boys.
This locks out one of the RBR seats for the next 2 seasons so the Junior boys best get moving and start impressing.
From a pure cost standpoint, farming one of them up is much cheaper than a Kimi.
The only drivers who are a detriment to their team's chances for Constructors are Grosjean and Button. So maybe it's you who doesn't have any sense ;P
pants
Member
Massa is far too chaotic recently. He's just not a driver you can bank on to get a good points haul per season. I don't think Webber's heart is in it (RBR) anymore tbh. He doesnt need to leave F1, just leave RBR
Button or Massa?
brotkasten
Member
I doubt Ferrari expected Vettel to join them in 2015.
Dutch Gronk
Banned
That's when Perez his contract starts.
I think Massa's been pretty stable with the exception of the last two races... but you're right about Webber. I don't think he'll leave F1 this year, but I definitely don't see him being at RBR. I was expecting they'd maybe keep the same pairing for the new car just to reduce the variables for 2014, but it's up to Mark and at this point, I could see him taking the place of someone like Grosjean at Lotus in a car that's still very much competitive and probably more suited to his driving than what Newey's putting out.
I don't think the following would be an unreasonable expectation for at least some of the lineups next year:
RBR: Vettel/Ricciardo
Lotus: Kimi/Webber
That's how I'd like to see it, anyway... but I also think it's not unreasonable to expect the above rosters to be true come next year. Honestly don't think Kimi would go to RBR, he seems fairly happy with the Lotus car (but not necessarily the people IN that team, lulz).
Why Ricciardo over Vergne ?
Real question, since I don't think any of those two is clearly better than the other.
brotkasten
Member
Because Shaneus is Australian and he'd like to see another Australian replace his Australian driver.
Let's ignore Ricciardo's technical problems in Australia and the DNF courtesy of Vergne's French compatriot missile at Monaco then
Hello!
I found this thread by luck. I was searching for news about f1 game on e3. Is it hidden like this on purpose?
McLaren fan for over 20 years. I was with them every year, excited for every race no matter if they were good or bad, even that year with MP-18.
But this year I just lost interest. Dont know exactly why - could be drivers (and I didnt like Lewis that much, but at least he was not boring), new management and feeling they are not even trying to fix the situation...like they are ok with being midfield team.
Oh yeah... tyre managment championship that f1 turned into doesnt help either.
Ok rant over
Has McLaren discovered where is the problem? Will they bring some updates (before fall if possible)?
Any GAF meetups on euro races? I usually go to Monza but not every year.
I found this thread by luck. I was searching for news about f1 game on e3. Is it hidden like this on purpose?
McLaren fan for over 20 years. I was with them every year, excited for every race no matter if they were good or bad, even that year with MP-18.
But this year I just lost interest. Dont know exactly why - could be drivers (and I didnt like Lewis that much, but at least he was not boring), new management and feeling they are not even trying to fix the situation...like they are ok with being midfield team.
Oh yeah... tyre managment championship that f1 turned into doesnt help either.
Ok rant over
Has McLaren discovered where is the problem? Will they bring some updates (before fall if possible)?
Any GAF meetups on euro races? I usually go to Monza but not every year.
Let's ignore Ricciardo's technical problems in Australia and the DNF courtesy of Vergne's French compatriot missile at Monaco then
That was a joke (mostly), but we know that if we begin to argue this way it would never end, that's why I said in the first place that neither of those two is clearly better than the other
Psychotext
Member
/waves
So, Vettel just got confirmed for RBR until 2015. Who do you guys think will be his teammate? Sounds like Webber could switch as he's not confirmed beyond 2013.
bobnowhere
Member
Pure speculation on my part, but it seems as though their car places a huge emphasis on the floor and pitch. Hence the very stiff suspension setup trying to keep the car in one position under varying aero load. Any bump or curb hop disrupts this. I suspect they will do better at billiard table tracks with low curbing like maybe Abu Dabi but I imagine they are too far behind the 8 ball now to catch up.
Woohoo, two snooker/billiard/pool metaphors in one paragraph!
Loeb dominating in WRC is a bit different than what Vettel is doing in F1. I don't think any one driver domination would turn me off from F1 but it definitely hurt my want to follow WRC.
Loeb was on a different plane compared to everyone else.
Hello there! This thread is a good place to be most of the time but it can get pretty ugly following races.
Man I wish I could have seen/heard LDM's reaction to this news.
I think this news makes Felipe's position at Ferrari even more unstable since he would have been acceptable for one more year as a stopgap if Seb picked up that supposed option he signed with them, but now nothing is stopping Ferrari from going after a younger talent to groom after Fernando retires/transfers.
brotkasten
Member
Alonso's contract ends at the end of 2016 and Vettel wasn't going to get a seat sooner than that.
Psychotext
Member
I wonder how many World Championships he'll have at that point (Alonso not Vettel).
Probably got a reasonable shot at next year.
Probably got a reasonable shot at next year.