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The Formula 1 2013 Season |OT| End of the Webber Era

C

ClassyPenguin

Banned
DD said:
"The record books may say that Felipe Massa never won the World Championship with Ferrari, but anyone who saw him that evening in Brazil in 2008 knows that he is by nature a great champion – and more of a sportsman than some who have worn the crown…"
- Joe Saward​

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/felipe/
Click to expand...
Yup. Screw the haters, he might have not been on top form the last few years but he us still a great driver.
 
J

JardeL

Member
Kimi and Alonso, they're both champions and best drivers on the grid imo but Ferrari's problem is about the car itself, not the drivers. Massa would stay at Ferrari if they had a competitive car.
 
A

Adam Scott Aukerman

Member
JardeL said:
Kimi and Alonso, they're both champions and best drivers on the grid imo but Ferrari's problem is about the car itself, not the drivers. Massa would stay at Ferrari if they had a competitive car.
Click to expand...
It would have to be a self-driving sonic car for Massa to best the rest of the field these days. While their car isn't currently a red bull, it's still good enough for Alonso to be second in the championship, and to have come very close to winning championships in recent years. Nice as he may be, Massa isn't anywhere good enough any more.
 
J

JardeL

Member
rogue_pigeon said:
It would have to be a self-driving sonic car for Massa to best the rest of the field these days. While their car isn't currently a red bull, it's still good enough for Alonso to be second in the championship, and to have come very close to winning championships in recent years. Nice as he may be, Massa isn't anywhere good enough.
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Yeah, Massa is not very good but he is decent with a competitive car. Noone would care about his performance if Ferrari was good enough to win championships with Alonso. The car sucks and bringing Kimi to Ferrari wont save their ass.

Alonso is at his best, even with his godlike driving skills he can't win a championship. Being second in the championship with the best driver on the grid doesnt make the car competitive or good enough imho.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Didn't get a chance to post about it yesterday, but the Massa news is something I think we've all been expecting for a long time now, but it's still somewhat bittersweet to see him finally move on from Ferrari. He has had his ups and downs, but he always seemed like a nice guy, and a fucking loyal driver for the team. Best of luck to him in the future.
 
P

PdotMichael

Banned
JardeL said:
Yeah, Massa is not very good but he is decent with a competitive car. Noone would care about his performance if Ferrari was good enough to win championships with Alonso. The car sucks and bringing Kimi to Ferrari wont save their ass.

Alonso is at his best, even with his godlike driving skills he can't win a championship. Being second in the championship with the best driver on the grid doesnt make the car competitive or good enough imho.
Click to expand...

So Alonso can change the laws of physics with his godlike driving skills?

If Kimi is on the same level as Alonso next year do they have both laws of physics changing abilities or is the car maybe not that crappy?
 
N

NHale

Member
Lach said:
Well he still needs that super licence and I have my doubts he can do it.

If he does get it and gets the seat, I don't think they'll go with Guttierez and Sirotkin. That would be a very weak driver duo. Actually thinking about it, it would be cool if Massa went back to his roots for a season or two. I don't think he'd find a better seat than a sauber...
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Without him getting super licence then the Russian money laundry scheme doesn't put any more money on Sauber pockets and the team will be forced to close the doors.

Unless a miracle happens Sauber short term future is tied with Sirotkin.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
NHale said:
Without him getting super licence then the Russian money laundry scheme doesn't put any more money on Sauber pockets and the team will be forced to close the doors.

Unless a miracle happens Sauber short term future is tied with Sirotkin.
Click to expand...

That's the gist of it. For SAU there are only three scenarios possible:
- Gutierez AND Sirotkin as pay drivers
- leasing a full car without own development
- or close the doors

But the Sirotkin thing is as close to a done deal as possible in F1, so I see the other options at below 5% probability.
 
B

brotkasten

Member
It's pretty hard for me to get emotional about Massa. He had his chance, it didn't work out as hoped, he sucked after the accident. Good riddance.

Now putting Kimi in the other seat, I don't know about that. Ferrari needs to be strong and focused and hiring Kimi seems to be a move to piss off Alonso more than anything, hence the 1-year contract. I highly doubt it's possible to win a championship like that.

In the end, I don't prefer Alonso over Kimi or vice versa, as long as they win the WCC and perhaps even the WDC. Next year's definitely going to be interesting.
 
R

ramparter

Banned
I think Massa lack of results has to do more with lack of motivation. Soon after Alonso joined the team he realized he was No 2 again. Why run when you know your team will ask you to step aside and let your teammate pass.
 
G

Gruso

Member
Some interesting words on the Massa situation from Some Brazilian Guy On The Internet.

Globo is the broadcaster in Brazil, Brazil is a HUGE market for F1 with millions of viewers and Globo is one of the biggest media players in the world. They have power and money.

Globo will not show the races unless there is a Brazilian driver because they'll lose a big part of their casual audience that likes to see the brazilian drivers. Globo is also an excellent partner of FOM and FOM would lose a hell lot of money if they lose this huge market.

You can rest assured that Massa will race next year, or at least Felipe Nasr. They can afford a seat in any team willing to sell it, hell, they can pay for both seats and still make a profit out of it, they never had to do it until today because there was at least one Brazilian Driver in a top team in the past 20-30 years.

FOM and Globo needs at least one brazilian driver. If massa can't get a spot because of his potential, he'll be seated by FOM and Globo somewhere on the grid.
Click to expand...

From here: http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co...sa_will_not_be_driving_for_ferrari_in/cc5ngqv

What do you reckon? From out of his arse, or a realistic assessment of the importance of F1 in Brazil?
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
Gruso said:
What do you reckon? From out of his arse, or a realistic assessment of the importance of F1 in Brazil?
Click to expand...

In todays F1 climate its close to impossible for MAS to secure a drive as a paid driver.
But: enough teams are cash strapped to a point, where they would take him if he brings money.
 
N

NHale

Member
P

Psychotext

Member
So Niko Hülkenberg's merch is currently 50% off at the Sauber shop... Gutiérrez's stuff remains unchanged in price.

So that pretty much confirms Lotus for next year.
 
T

TCRS

Banned
Two seasons? Damn. I'm excited and at the same time dreading the potential clashes between him, Alonso and the team.
 
VE3TRO

VE3TRO

Formerly Gizmowned
Oh gawd lol. https://twitter.com/lotus_f1team/status/377765191053606912

tFiCBdS.png
Click to expand...
 
D

DrM

Redmond's Baby
JardeL said:
Kimi and Alonso, they're both champions and best drivers on the grid imo but Ferrari's problem is about the car itself, not the drivers. Massa would stay at Ferrari if they had a competitive car.
Click to expand...

Also their driving style is quite different, so Ferrari will have quite a work to do with creating car right in the middle (read: as Fernando wants).
 
B

brotkasten

Member
JardeL said:
Kimi and Alonso, they're both champions and best drivers on the grid imo but Ferrari's problem is about the car itself, not the drivers. Massa would stay at Ferrari if they had a competitive car.
Click to expand...

You're making it sound like it was Massa's decision to leave the team.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
*insert michael jackson popcorn gif*

2014 will be plenty interesting. From Ferrari's POV, not sure whether Kimi was ever needed; in fact, they already had Hulk signed - Ferrari could have saved the extra 10-15m to focus on poaching technical geniuses like Newey, etc.

It's clear that Ferrari did not have a driver problem (especially if they could have landed Hulk); hiring Kimi does not fix their car problem one bit.
 
Z

Zeknurn

Member
ksharp said:
*insert michael jackson popcorn gif*

2014 will be plenty interesting. From Ferrari's POV, not sure whether Kimi was ever needed; in fact, they already had Hulk signed - Ferrari could have saved the extra 10-15m to focus on poaching technical geniuses like Newey, etc.

It's clear that Ferrari did not have a driver problem (especially if they could have landed Hulk); hiring Kimi does not fix their car problem one bit.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that they also picked up James Allison earlier this season. Who knows, maybe he played a key part in Ferrari picking up Räikkönen.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
Zeknurn said:
Keep in mind that they also picked up James Allison earlier this season. Who knows, maybe he played a key part in Ferrari picking up Räikkönen.
Click to expand...

Whilst I rate him highly, it remains to be seen whether he can actually bridge the gap to RBR. Don't think he will be enough; like Pat Fry was not enough.

He probably played a part in Kimi's comeback because of their connection - but he's a technical engineer, not a race engineer.

To be honest, I expect Alonso to beat Kimi with a healthy margin (not Massa-like of course, more Button/Rosberg-like) - now Ferrari's issue will be to develop a car that's a bit faster in qualifying as Kimi and Alonso are not renowned for their 1-lap pace these days.
 
D

Diablo Rosso

Member
Ferrari's problem is the car, like it is for McLaren. Kimi isn't going to fix that really. If they do sort the car out then they are in the best position to beat Red Bull.
 
O

operon

Member
Ferrari needs to sort out the car, which means the bloody wind tunnel actually needs fixing. They will have 2 good drivers now give them the car.
 
N

NHale

Member
ksharp said:
2014 will be plenty interesting. From Ferrari's POV, not sure whether Kimi was ever needed; in fact, they already had Hulk signed - Ferrari could have saved the extra 10-15m to focus on poaching technical geniuses like Newey, etc.
Click to expand...

Newey will never join Ferrari. He wants to work in the UK because of his wife.

ksharp said:
It's clear that Ferrari did not have a driver problem (especially if they could have landed Hulk); hiring Kimi does not fix their car problem one bit.
Click to expand...

This wasn't about "solving a driver problem" because if that was the case they would have gone with Hulkenburg not Kimi. This was about politics and LdM feeling the need to prove to Alonso that he doesn't have any power at Ferrari no matter how he outperforms the car or not. "Drivers come and go..."

While Vettel vetoed Raikkonen, Alonso didn't had that power.

Diablo Rosso said:
Ferrari's problem is the car, like it is for McLaren. Kimi isn't going to fix that really. If they do sort the car out then they are in the best position to beat Red Bull.
Click to expand...

If they only beat Red Bull they will be stuck on 2nd position again next year...
 
Z

Zeppu

Member
Calling it now: 2014 Season

Ferrari will have 80+% races with driver on podium. %40+ with two drivers. They will easily win the constructors' unless we're seriously underestimating Riccardo.
 
D

Diablo Rosso

Member
NHale said:
Newey will never join Ferrari. He wants to work in the UK because of his wife.



This wasn't about "solving a driver problem" because if that was the case they would have gone with Hulkenburg not Kimi. This was about politics and LdM feeling the need to prove to Alonso that he doesn't have any power at Ferrari no matter how he outperforms the car or not. "Drivers come and go..."

While Vettel vetoed Raikkonen, Alonso didn't had that power.



If they only beat Red Bull they will be stuck on 2nd position again next year...
Click to expand...
Who is going to be top?
 
K

kanuuna

Member
It'll be interesting to see Kimi & Alonso race as teammates. Here's hoping Kimi can put up a good fight for next season, since 2013 is pretty much over for him already.
 
B

brotkasten

Member
I really wonder if there's much behind the Mercedes V6 hype.

ksharp said:
*insert michael jackson popcorn gif*

2014 will be plenty interesting. From Ferrari's POV, not sure whether Kimi was ever needed; in fact, they already had Hulk signed - Ferrari could have saved the extra 10-15m to focus on poaching technical geniuses like Newey, etc.

It's clear that Ferrari did not have a driver problem (especially if they could have landed Hulk); hiring Kimi does not fix their car problem one bit.
Click to expand...

Newey's wife doesn't want to move to "a third world country like Italy" (or something along those lines).
 
J

jey_16

Banned
I think this is going to blow up big time, say what you want about Alonso but he has dragged that Ferrari to places where it should not be over the last few years, why antagonise him? Kimi isn't that young as well and Hulk would have been a good compromise. Spend the money on building a better wind tunnel or new computer modelling instead, no point on having two expensive drivers when the car is slow
 
Z

Zeppu

Member
"The car is slow" is a relative term. I don't believe the Ferrari is anywhere as slow as anyone makes it out to be, except in quali. It's just that the RBR is beast.
 
O

operon

Member
Zeppu said:
"The car is slow" is a relative term. I don't believe the Ferrari is anywhere as slow as anyone makes it out to be, except in quali. It's just that the RBR is beast.
Click to expand...

No one is saying it's real slow. The problem is it's qualifying performance is poor compared to Red Bull and Mercedes which puts them at a disadvantage, Alonso's fantastic starts helping to keep them in it. The Red Bull is a beast, Ferrari need to get closer to their performance. Next season is the perfect opportunity for a team to take over Red Bull's crown
 
N

NHale

Member
jey_16 said:
I think this is going to blow up big time, say what you want about Alonso but he has dragged that Ferrari to places where it should not be over the last few years, why antagonise him? Kimi isn't that young as well and Hulk would have been a good compromise. Spend the money on building a better wind tunnel or new computer modelling instead, no point on having two expensive drivers when the car is slow
Click to expand...

Some on the paddock actually argue that Hulkenburg could actually be faster than Kimi and unlike Kimi he would be willing to work for Alonso.

But like you said LdM is just showing to Alonso that his previous work didn't earn him anything. And rightfully so Alonso is pissed that this how he's being repaid after the last couple of years.

However what did Alonso expected? Schumacher won 5 WDC at Ferrari and how did LdM show his appreciation? He fired him via a press release that was given to the press while Schumacher was driving the race at Monza...
 
D

dubc35

Member
Sorry, I haven't caught up on the thread but damn, Ferrari is going to be a circus next year. It could be a good one or a terrible one. It definitely adds more to the excitement for next year with the tech regs changing too.
 
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