Templar Wizard
Member
Whats going on now?
50% of the drivers on the grid think that Nico dumped it on purpose, so because Warwick made a decision its no longer possible to discuss it?
And what conspiracy theories are you referring to?
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The Formula 1 2014 Season |OT| Who Will Win? Nobody Nose
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Whats going on now?
50% of the drivers on the grid think that Nico dumped it on purpose, so because Warwick made a decision its no longer possible to discuss it?
And what conspiracy theories are you referring to?
Where did you get that number from?
Templar Wizard
Member
I believe the quote was 'every other driver on the grid' believed it was on purpose, so thats 50% I calculate.
But thats from Brundle, Benson, Hughes etc..
But thats from Brundle, Benson, Hughes etc..
Does it matter what the exact number is?
In any case, there's quite a lot of people involved in F1 that think it was deliberate. Whether it's 20%, 40% or 70% doesn't matter. That the stewards didn't hand out a penalty because it wasn't possible to prove anything doesn't matter either. His "gentlemen racer" image definitely helped him and I'm not sure that the image is deserved.
None of those things mean that Rosberg did it on purpose. They also don't mean that he didn't. The only person that knows is himself.
Which doesn't make it impossible to speculate and have an opinion either way for an outsider. Quite why anyone would get upset by that is beyond me.
In any case, there's quite a lot of people involved in F1 that think it was deliberate. Whether it's 20%, 40% or 70% doesn't matter. That the stewards didn't hand out a penalty because it wasn't possible to prove anything doesn't matter either. His "gentlemen racer" image definitely helped him and I'm not sure that the image is deserved.
None of those things mean that Rosberg did it on purpose. They also don't mean that he didn't. The only person that knows is himself.
Which doesn't make it impossible to speculate and have an opinion either way for an outsider. Quite why anyone would get upset by that is beyond me.
Templar Wizard
Member
Exactly, whats done is done, he wasnt penalised for it so we move on.
What it does have a huge effect on is Hammy and that was plan for all to see, so Monaco 2014 may be a defining moment in how 2014 continues.
Surely thats a topic for discussion??
What it does have a huge effect on is Hammy and that was plan for all to see, so Monaco 2014 may be a defining moment in how 2014 continues.
Surely thats a topic for discussion??
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
I think that's probably a good idea, as it seems you could use a refreshing of perspective.
As is evident from Warrick's statement, benefit of doubt played a part in this decision, as intent could not be proved nor disproved. So to brand one side of that argument as "silly conspiracy theories" when there's no actual evidence on either side is awfully reductive.
We're here to discuss, no matter how cyclical or inane some of those discussions may be, not to command people to agree with us.
That's compensated for by "Loose one turn"
king picollo
Member
Was there any report as to what was up with Hamilton's eye/vision?
That seemed to influence the race more than anything in the end.
That seemed to influence the race more than anything in the end.
He brushed it off pretty quickly in the post-race interview, was just something that came through a small opening in his visor and it took a few laps to clear.
Wouldn't have been such an issue anywhere else, but Monaco definitely requires 2 working eyes.
OK guys. I decided to do a little longer writeup to maybe make myself a little more clear.
I´m a Merc guy. First and foremost. As long as one of the Merc guys wins the WDC I´m absolutely happy.
Maybe I´d be a tiny fraction more happy for ROS, but thats simply because HAM already has a championship, and he doesn´t. Yet I´d absolutely celebrate the HAM WDC too, absolutely no doubt.
What angers me about the situation right now, is that ROS is one of the nicest guys you could ever meet in your life, and as such a rarity in the F1 circus. Right now there is no single person more mad at ROS than ROS himself, because he knows he made a mistake, and people will use this to spread FUD for years to come.
Simply put, ROS is exactly the person who could have never done it. He´s the kind of guy, who simply can´t lie to you. He´d rather say "I can´t answer that", change topic or stay quiet before he could even tell a white lie. I don´t know, maybe his head would explode if he ever tried, but I´m sure you could tell.
Did this play a role in Warwicks & the other stewards decision? For sure. Because they would have noticed, if he had tried to lie.
And this is only on top of the most exhaustive data you could ever hope to analyze. Damn it guys, teams use this data sets to extrapolate their drivers reaction times over the length of the race, put that into relation when they drank and stuff like that. Yes, you can tell from the data when a driver farted.
As long as you have all the data available (and the stewards never indicated otherwise) you can tell EXACTLY what happened. Thats why RBR never had a chance in their fuel flow proceedings, because in dubio pro reo doesn´t work, when there is no doubt left.
So, why do some drivers still say he did it deliberately?
I would bet body parts of myself that not a single driver genuinely believes he did. But in the season, you say stuff like that. Because not just in love and war, but also in F1 everything is a go that could give you even the tiniest competitive advantage.
So of course they say that, hoping they can bring unrest to Merc. Pressure HAM. Make ROS doubt himself.
You know why ROS is so universally liked in the circus? Because he never took part in that kind of shenanigans. You never saw him in 2014 with his arm over VET shoulders, saying "man, what a shame, you the 4 time champ, and they only give the good stuff to the young one". You never saw him the years before talking to WEB "hey what a shame they treat you a second fiddle, you´re such a nice guy".
If I can give one tipp: don´t listen to what F1 people say within the season if you want to judge relationships. Its simply part of the circus. Listen in the offseason, you´ll be much the wiser.
As for HAM, I really hope these things don´t get to him. By my personal private judgement, he has trust issues. Its now been all season, that he basically looked stunned when he heard the nice things others in the team (yes, even ROS), said about him. And I think his relationship with Lauda is somewhat odd. I would not go so far as to suggest he had childhood problems, but I mean Lauda is not exactly the emotionally warmest person. More the strict father than the loving one. Yet they are very very tight.
But Lauda is exactly the perfect person to sit down with the two, and talk it through. He wont make them dance into the sunset holding hands, but he will make sure they know they will always be treated equally, absolutely perfectly equally. When they canned Brawn not even two weeks after Shanghai they already made sure there will be no doubts about that.
Its still a very long season ahead, with many points still to be distributed, many things that could happen. Even Lauda and Wolff want the WDC decided in the very last race.
Back to driver shenanigans. You know who the crowned king of those is right now? ALO. Thats one of the reasons I had a very good laugh when some media wanted to write him to Merc before the Spain race. There are many teams that wouldn´t touch him with a ten foot pole, no matter how brilliantly he drives.
You only need to watch what happens at FER right now. He was extremely unhappy getting a very competitive teammate. At the start of the season he didn´t have to worry, as RAI had severe problems getting used to FER break-by-wire solution. But now that RAI starts to get even, he is back to his old ways. he simply wants to demotivate him to a point, where RAI will simply say fuck it, I´m out. Because ALO himself wont get a topseat somewhere else. I´m really curious how this is going to playout this year.
But, before the ALO fans roast me over open flames, I do not want to make ALO look bad. What he does is pretty much par for the course as F1 is involved.
You know, there was a guy not so long ago, who bedded the other drivers girlfriends. Threatened them with a broken pool queue, as he simply couldn´t even lose a simple game of pool, and always had to show he was better than enyone else.
Thats the other end of the spectrum from ROS. Alo is only very much in the middle.
I´m a Merc guy. First and foremost. As long as one of the Merc guys wins the WDC I´m absolutely happy.
Maybe I´d be a tiny fraction more happy for ROS, but thats simply because HAM already has a championship, and he doesn´t. Yet I´d absolutely celebrate the HAM WDC too, absolutely no doubt.
What angers me about the situation right now, is that ROS is one of the nicest guys you could ever meet in your life, and as such a rarity in the F1 circus. Right now there is no single person more mad at ROS than ROS himself, because he knows he made a mistake, and people will use this to spread FUD for years to come.
Simply put, ROS is exactly the person who could have never done it. He´s the kind of guy, who simply can´t lie to you. He´d rather say "I can´t answer that", change topic or stay quiet before he could even tell a white lie. I don´t know, maybe his head would explode if he ever tried, but I´m sure you could tell.
Did this play a role in Warwicks & the other stewards decision? For sure. Because they would have noticed, if he had tried to lie.
And this is only on top of the most exhaustive data you could ever hope to analyze. Damn it guys, teams use this data sets to extrapolate their drivers reaction times over the length of the race, put that into relation when they drank and stuff like that. Yes, you can tell from the data when a driver farted.
As long as you have all the data available (and the stewards never indicated otherwise) you can tell EXACTLY what happened. Thats why RBR never had a chance in their fuel flow proceedings, because in dubio pro reo doesn´t work, when there is no doubt left.
So, why do some drivers still say he did it deliberately?
I would bet body parts of myself that not a single driver genuinely believes he did. But in the season, you say stuff like that. Because not just in love and war, but also in F1 everything is a go that could give you even the tiniest competitive advantage.
So of course they say that, hoping they can bring unrest to Merc. Pressure HAM. Make ROS doubt himself.
You know why ROS is so universally liked in the circus? Because he never took part in that kind of shenanigans. You never saw him in 2014 with his arm over VET shoulders, saying "man, what a shame, you the 4 time champ, and they only give the good stuff to the young one". You never saw him the years before talking to WEB "hey what a shame they treat you a second fiddle, you´re such a nice guy".
If I can give one tipp: don´t listen to what F1 people say within the season if you want to judge relationships. Its simply part of the circus. Listen in the offseason, you´ll be much the wiser.
As for HAM, I really hope these things don´t get to him. By my personal private judgement, he has trust issues. Its now been all season, that he basically looked stunned when he heard the nice things others in the team (yes, even ROS), said about him. And I think his relationship with Lauda is somewhat odd. I would not go so far as to suggest he had childhood problems, but I mean Lauda is not exactly the emotionally warmest person. More the strict father than the loving one. Yet they are very very tight.
But Lauda is exactly the perfect person to sit down with the two, and talk it through. He wont make them dance into the sunset holding hands, but he will make sure they know they will always be treated equally, absolutely perfectly equally. When they canned Brawn not even two weeks after Shanghai they already made sure there will be no doubts about that.
Its still a very long season ahead, with many points still to be distributed, many things that could happen. Even Lauda and Wolff want the WDC decided in the very last race.
Back to driver shenanigans. You know who the crowned king of those is right now? ALO. Thats one of the reasons I had a very good laugh when some media wanted to write him to Merc before the Spain race. There are many teams that wouldn´t touch him with a ten foot pole, no matter how brilliantly he drives.
You only need to watch what happens at FER right now. He was extremely unhappy getting a very competitive teammate. At the start of the season he didn´t have to worry, as RAI had severe problems getting used to FER break-by-wire solution. But now that RAI starts to get even, he is back to his old ways. he simply wants to demotivate him to a point, where RAI will simply say fuck it, I´m out. Because ALO himself wont get a topseat somewhere else. I´m really curious how this is going to playout this year.
But, before the ALO fans roast me over open flames, I do not want to make ALO look bad. What he does is pretty much par for the course as F1 is involved.
You know, there was a guy not so long ago, who bedded the other drivers girlfriends. Threatened them with a broken pool queue, as he simply couldn´t even lose a simple game of pool, and always had to show he was better than enyone else.
Thats the other end of the spectrum from ROS. Alo is only very much in the middle.
1. Do you know Rosberg personally? Have you met him? I did at Goodwood, and you'd be surprised how someone can come across when there are no cameras about. He's very intelligent, well-spoken, and knows exactly what to say when it matters. That doesn't exclude him from being as 'dirty' a driver as anyone else when the time comes. I'm not saying there's is evidence to prove he deliberately caused those yellows, but as others have said, Warwick essentially gave him the benefit of the doubt.
However, I will say that I trust Warwick's judgement and decision, so I honestly don't really care any more. Doesn't change what I think, but whatever.
2. "I would bet body parts of myself that not a single driver genuinely believes he did."
That would be fucking dumb. There are definitely those that at least suspect, if not believe 100%.
3. Agreed on Alonso. I do however think a 2015 drive with McLaren-Honda is already well on it's way to being finalised. He won't waste another year.
theignoramus
Member
Peter Windsor said the reason Lewis went out so late in Q3 was because it was Nico's turn to decide about going out first and Merc likes a gap between the first driver out and the second.
@ Jibbed
1. I do. I do not base my opinions on what these guys say into a microphone.
2. I disagree fully. Not much more to say there.
3. I see that chance at less than 10% myself. Honda will pay BUT a golden autumn of his career as the experienced development driver. They´ll pair him with a young gun. Honda wont be competitive (as in: having a winning car) in their first year. It doesn´t make any sense for them to get one of the top drivers, and having to shoulder the blame alone. And there is always blame in F1 when you don´t have a winning car, no matter the circumstances.
1. I do. I do not base my opinions on what these guys say into a microphone.
2. I disagree fully. Not much more to say there.
3. I see that chance at less than 10% myself. Honda will pay BUT a golden autumn of his career as the experienced development driver. They´ll pair him with a young gun. Honda wont be competitive (as in: having a winning car) in their first year. It doesn´t make any sense for them to get one of the top drivers, and having to shoulder the blame alone. And there is always blame in F1 when you don´t have a winning car, no matter the circumstances.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Why would Honda want Button doing the development when he has proven himself to be totally inadequate over the last few years? After Hamilton left McLaren the development feedback has fallen almost all on Button's shoulders and clearly he has not led the engineers in the right direction. Not having a top driver is part of McLaren's problem right now, holding onto Button doesn't seem like a smart decision. Signing Alonso to be their development driver in 2015 and then to attack 2016 for the WDC like we know he can seems like a better idea.
Thats not how it works. Right now he is the highest rated dev driver in the field, it was Heidfeld before him.
Giving the best feedback does not automatically mean the engineers take it in the right direction too. One of BUT´s biggest strengths is his ability, to totally take tyres out of the equation and give comparison data. Very few can do that.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
McLaren basically turned to shit when Lewis and Paddy left for Mercedes. Their in-season development is crap and they are continually behind the competition in pre-season practice. Button may be the best at ensuring tyre deg is not an issue, but he is not the right person to push the car to the very limit like Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel. How can the engineering team know where the deficiencies are if the driver can't push the car to the limit. The McLaren might actually be quicker than it currently shows in race trim in the hands of one of the top drivers but with Button there it is difficult to know what the potential of the car really is. It could be that the team have created something close to Ferrari, but the driver can't produce the goods.
Surely now is the time to remove all doubt and get Alonso in as a development driver to ensure they head in the right direction. If I was Ron, that is what I would be thinking. Button just can't cut it as the lead driver of a team with so much history of being at the top. He is, at best, on par with Massa and should be at FI, Williams or Sauber. McLaren betting the farm on Button instead of Hamilton is something they may not recover from, but they have a chance to rectify that mistake by signing a top driver like Alonso in 2015 to lead them from the front.
pants
Member
You sure pulled a lot out of your butt here bro
McLaren were having problems before Hamilton left and Ferrari have had Alonso for several years and done terribly. Only his skill on the track has given them a chance of doing well in a dog of a car.
McLaren are on a downward trend. Despite having the best PU on the grid by far the car is awful and they still don't have a title sponsor. Unless Honda are kicking in a lot of money, i doubt they would even be able to afford Alonso. Hopefully he doesn't forget how Ron treated him in 07
What zomgbbqftw brings up are IMO two separate issues.
Of course ALO would move the car quicker around the track than BUT. But of what use is the quickest driver, if he can´t explain to the engineers why he did it? ALO is one of the great drivers by feel. When it comes to analytical drivers, right now BUT is the acknowledged gold standard.
Of course ALO would move the car quicker around the track than BUT. But of what use is the quickest driver, if he can´t explain to the engineers why he did it? ALO is one of the great drivers by feel. When it comes to analytical drivers, right now BUT is the acknowledged gold standard.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
Honda are said to be ploughing in $100m per season (engines, support, 50% driver salaries), if they wanted him, and he was willing, they could get him. I don't want King Cunt back at McLaren, he's pure poison who should be left to rot at Ferrari.
Are Honda allowed to do any aerodynamic work in their wind tunnels for 2015?
Templar Wizard
Member
King Cunt?
Are you asking if Honda could use their wind tunnels at 100% to develop the car for next year, since at this moment in time they are not part of the sport?
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
Yes, it was rumoured before this season had started that Tim Goss had abandoned the current McLaren and had gone to work with Honda in Japan on next season's car.
Omnicorse say Honda want Newey, Horner and Vettel at McLaren.
Omnicorse say Honda want Newey, Horner and Vettel at McLaren.
Now that poses an interesting question... who has the deeper pockets? RedBull or Honda? Isn't Newey sick of being away from his kids? I can't see him agreeing to be in Japan constantly.
I don't think Newey can be any less away from his kids than he is now, and still be in F1.
Newey to WEC confirmed?
Psychotext
Member
Nope, Vettel has fans here... and not all of them as big an asshole as the one who shall not be mentioned.
I don't know that they'd be able to get away with it.
RukusProvider
Banned
Vettel fan checking in.
This thread is a freaking mess. ZOMG, stick to Sony analytics please.
Hamilton is fast but is heavily burdened or buoyed by his emotional state. His "poor me" crap is the reason I'm not a fan. I like Schumacher and Vettel personalities in that they're solely focused on winning and will do what it takes (we can argue ethics endlessly). I personally don't think Rosberg has their ruthlessness in him.
Sucks about Kimi's luck at Monaco. However, if he can retain that form and keep the car going, I expect major meltdowns from Alonso.
The most exciting thing about this season has been the inner team drama as the action on the track is slower. Each time the cars are slowed and the lap times go up, I'm a little less interested in F1. My favorite are still the 2004 like cars with outright speed, qualifying only setups and not having to drive to a delta.
This thread is a freaking mess. ZOMG, stick to Sony analytics please.
Hamilton is fast but is heavily burdened or buoyed by his emotional state. His "poor me" crap is the reason I'm not a fan. I like Schumacher and Vettel personalities in that they're solely focused on winning and will do what it takes (we can argue ethics endlessly). I personally don't think Rosberg has their ruthlessness in him.
Sucks about Kimi's luck at Monaco. However, if he can retain that form and keep the car going, I expect major meltdowns from Alonso.
The most exciting thing about this season has been the inner team drama as the action on the track is slower. Each time the cars are slowed and the lap times go up, I'm a little less interested in F1. My favorite are still the 2004 like cars with outright speed, qualifying only setups and not having to drive to a delta.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Kimi is better than Alfonso..
Fox Mulder
Member
What are some of the best seasons to dig up and watch?
2012, 2010, 2008, 2007 are the best seasons of the last few years. The last half of 2009 was quite good too.
Before then I struggle to remember exactly which were the good years, but the schumacher vs hakkinen years were quite good. 98 and 00 especially.
96 was also quite good, mostly for schumacher being so godlike.
pants
Member
1994, 1996, 1997, 1990, 1989
96 was all Hill vs Villeneuve, that was his first year at ferrari when they had the upside down nose, he was nowhere really.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
1999, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2010..
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
My first F1 year, it's still one of the best.
Watching Irvine getting so close to the dream, even Frentzen with Jordan at some point seemed like a title contender, Herbert winning a gp out of nowhere, a normally easy title for Hakkinen but so many reliability problems and two mistakes you don't expect to see from a world champion. (both in Italy, guess it's not easy to drive in a country everybody wants you to lose)
Mastah
Member
1997 - great season with 75% of the field fighting for podiums and wins
2003 - fantastic battle between 3 teams for titles and rise of Alonso and Renault
2006 - titanic duel between Alonso and Schumacher
2007 - 4-way fight for championship
2008 - not as good as previous year, but fight until the end between Massa and Hamilton
2010 - like in 2003, 3 teams and 5 drivers going for it till the last lap of the last race
Also 1998 and 2000 with Hakkinen and Schumacher were good too, but for some reason I don't like these seasons. 2005 with Raikkonen and Alonso, but no real fight on track between them (though 2005 Japanese GP was godlike, one of the best races in history). 2004 was boring Schumacher and Ferrari domination, but if you are interested to see F1 at its best, with the fastest cars ever, that's the season.
Panis was doing well in 1997 (assisted by superior Bridgestone tyres), until he... broke his leg
These idiots will do everything, even destroy and kill F1, before introducing budget cap on sensible level, which would fix most of the problems with the sport today.
Marussia made their breakthrough during Barcelona test, because they had opportunity to test things, which wouldn't be possible in race weekend. Money clearly wasted there, huh? Don't want to spend money on testing - don't test, as simple as that. There is no obligation to test other than one day for Pirelli. With ban on in-season testing only big teams benefits from it and I think that is the agenda behind this move.
True, but it contains some of his best ever performances, like the Spanish grand prix
While I agree that a budget cap would be very desirable... what breakthrough? While they might have distanced themselves a bit from Caterham, they didn't really close the gap to Sauber, so I don't really see much of a breakthrough for them.
And I want Jesus, Buddha and Muhammed rolled into one nice lady to give me bj´s
Kidding aside, Newey doesn´t want to leave England, Horner is Bernies heir, and VET has a loi with FER. I guess its nice to want things, but lets keep it realistic.
pants
Member
And I want Jesus, Buddha and Muhammed rolled into one nice lady to give me bj´s
Kidding aside, Newey doesn´t want to leave England, Horner is Bernies heir, and VET has a loi with FER. I guess its nice to want things, but lets keep it realistic.
Newey and Vettel I can easily see.
True, he did put on some performances. I think he was better (and worse) in 1997 though
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