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[kiyomi]

There is no 'best F1 driver to ever live'. That's right, even Senna was not the best F1 driver to ever live. There is rather a group of 'best F1 drivers to ever live' and you can pick and choose from that group depending on era, etc.

Btw, If you don't think Schumacher was one of the best, then you need to rethink your priorities.

I'm not going to delve into a defensive argument on Vettel again, but the people writing him off this season are very silly. This is his first poor season at the front.

It was really a rhetorical sorta question. Nobody is stupid enough to suggest that there is one, clearly defined Ultimate Driver That Ever Lived, and it certainly wasn't me, so cool it. And there's no need to tell me to "rethink my priorities", either. We're all just sharing opinions here, so there's no need to be aggressive.

Nobody* is writing Vettel off, but he has had a disappointing season by his standards, don't you agree? For those of us who have believed all along that Hamilton and Alonso are still the better overall drivers, it just adds a little fuel to the fire in that belief, that's all. He's still a great driver.

* Well I guess some people are, but those people are nuts.

 

[Ark]

It was really a rhetorical sorta question. Nobody is stupid enough to suggest that there is one, clearly defined Ultimate Driver That Ever Lived, and it certainly wasn't me, so cool it. And there's no need to tell me to "rethink my priorities", either. We're all just sharing opinions here, so there's no need to be aggressive.

I didn't realise how aggressive I sounded until I re-read it a couple of minutes ago and edited the post, but it was too late I apologise.

Nobody is writing Vettel off, but he has had a disappointing season by his standards, don't you agree? For those of us who have believed all along that Hamilton and Alonso are still the better overall drivers, it just adds a little fuel to the fire in that belief, that's all. He's still a great driver.

It depends on what you think his standards are really. I'd say his standards are having a car that can fight for the championship, and he doesn't have that (for the first time since bring promoted to RBR). It's likely going to be his first season since 2007 without a win though. Amusingly, Alonso isn't going to get a win this year either. Vettel has definitely improved since the first race of the season though.

 

[kiyomi]

I didn't realise how aggressive I sounded until I re-read it a couple of minutes ago and edited the post, but it was too late I apologise.

It's cool, we're all just fans here. :>

It depends on what you think his standards are really. I'd say his standards are having a car that can fight for the championship, and he doesn't have that (for the first time since bring promoted to RBR). It's likely going to be his first season since 2007 without a win though. Amusingly, Alonso isn't going to get a win this year either. Vettel has definitely improved since the first race of the season though.

I think what I mean when I say "his standards", is probably the way he's getting out-raced. Vettel - in my mind - gained a reputation for being able to fully use what he had at his disposal, which was often a fantastic car, and being able to deliver strategies that worked even when on occasion, Webber looked strong. This year, it seems to be his teammate who is the one more capable of that in this year's RBR. Alonso, over the years, has tended to dominate his teammate regardless of the competitiveness of the car, and particularly in the recent years where he hasn't had a true title-contender. By beating his teammates consistently and comprehensively in mediocre machinery has earnt him a lot of extra credit, and often that has meant finding the kinds of results that nobody really expected. This year we haven't seen Vettel do that, but I do agree that he's improving and it's entirely possible that next year we see the Vettel that we saw in 2010-2013.

 

[theignoramus]

Seb is top tier driver, but anybody ranking him above Lewis and Fernando is drinking the kool aid. Alonso should have beaten him 2010 (thanks Vitaly Petrov, you scrub) and in 2012, both he and Lewis were matching him blow for blow and only lost out because of reliability issues and Romain Grosjean.

 

[Addnan]

I can't wait to see Vettel vs Ricciardo in a car that matters. Would love it to be that Ricciardo walks all over him, but I somehow doubt that.

Next year I need Grosjean in a good team, I liked him even when he tried to kill half the field and then towards the end of last season started showing what he is really made of. He will be wdc if he can get a decent drive.

 

[Zeppu]

I really don't think Ric's performance detracts anything from Vettel. I still think he is a great driver, it just happens that Riccardo is a better performing driver than he is. Riccardo seems to have a knack at overtaking. He's not just fast around the track, he knows exactly how and when to get into a position to gain an advantage in a corner.

This is basically what EJ was repeating in the F1 forum. The new rookie drivers are quickly becoming as good or better than the previous generation.

 

[massivekettle]

I can't wait to see Vettel vs Ricciardo in a car that matters. Would love it to be that Ricciardo walks all over him, but I somehow doubt that.

Next year I need Grosjean in a good team, I liked him even when he tried to kill half the field and then towards the end of last season started showing what he is really made of. He will be wdc if he can get a decent drive.

What Vettel has difficulty with is an unstable rear end. I guess he was too used to RBR's flawless EBD-powered rear-end. As opposed to Ricciardo who came from shitboxes like Toro Rosso and HRT.

Given the current rules, I don't think the teams will ever be in a position to clawback that much downforce at the rear (lack of aero development due to current regs being way too restrictive - was one of the points made by Kravitz in today's notebook).

I really don't think Ric's performance detracts anything from Vettel. I still think he is a great driver, it just happens that Riccardo is a better performing driver than he is. Riccardo seems to have a knack at overtaking. He's not just fast around the track, he knows exactly how and when to get into a position to gain an advantage in a corner.

This is basically what EJ was repeating in the F1 forum. The new rookie drivers are quickly becoming as good or better than the previous generation.

Ricciardo is in between generations though. Ricciardo is only 2 years younger than Vettel and 4 years younger than Lewis; that's not really a "generational gap" IMO. He did drive 3 seasons in the old regs. I'd say he's the youngest member of the mid-80s (birthyear) generation.

I would say the new generation are Kvyat (20), Magnussen (22), Vandoorne (22), etc. who will have only driven in that V6 Turbo era.

BTW, great article by Benson:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29102305

Rosberg had a slight edge in the first sector of the lap, but Hamilton was untouchable in the second, particularly at the two demanding Lesmo corners. So much so that Williams's head of performance Rob Smedley was moved to describe his pole lap as "quite stunning".

"The real difference was in the two Lesmos," Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said. "The minimum speed through the two apexes in the Lesmos was very high."

In fact, Hamilton's minimum speed at the first Lesmo in qualifying was an eye-opening 15km/h faster than Rosberg's. There was no answer to that.

So Rosberg knew before the race started that if Hamilton got away well from pole position, he would be gone.

The team were very angry with him for his behaviour. And within F1 - as more information creeps out with the passing of time from conversations between team members - more and more people are coming to the conclusion that his 'mistake' in qualifying in Monaco, when Rosberg went down the escape road and cost Hamilton a chance to beat him to pole, was anything but.

It was in this context, and that of Spa - where Rosberg left his nose in despite having lost the corner, knowing Hamilton would likely hit it - that the Briton's remark over the weekend about wanting to win "in the right way" should be judged.

Sources close to Rosberg admit he has had to do some soul-searching in the time since Spa, and there seems little doubt that his standing within Mercedes has been affected by these incidents.

 

[Ark]

This is basically what EJ was repeating in the F1 forum. The new rookie drivers are quickly becoming as good or better than the previous generation.

The 'changing of the guard' will be due soon. It's actually a little strange seeing Alonso and Hamilton in their total primes now. Obviously Alonso hit his years ago but seeing people & the media saying "Lewis needs to mature more" used to happen every weekend and now he's actually gone and done exactly that.

EDIT: @ksharp: I disagree. I think Ricciardo is young enough to be the 'Alonso' (in terms of age) of the new generation of top-tier drivers. He'll compete with the 'old' top tiers like Hamilton (that feels weird to say), Vettel, and Alonso and when they've left he'll pick up the pieces while the new folks get under way.

EDIT2: Just noticed the other quote, 15km/h faster through the two Lesmo's?! That's insane.

 

[massivekettle]

The 'changing of the guard' will be due soon. It's actually a little strange seeing Alonso and Hamilton in their total primes now. Obviously Alonso hit his years ago but seeing people & the media saying "Lewis needs to mature more" used to happen every weekend and now he's actually gone and done exactly that.

EDIT: @ksharp: I disagree. I think Ricciardo is young enough to be the 'Alonso' (in terms of age) of the new generation of top-tier drivers. He'll compete with the 'old' top tiers like Hamilton (that feels weird to say), Vettel, and Alonso and when they've left he'll pick up the pieces while the new folks get under way.

Exactly proving my point, though. He's in between generations of drivers (or the youngest of the previous generation/oldest of the new one) - point is he will be hitting his prime as the mid-90s generation will start flocking into F1 to replace bottom-ranked mid-80s generation (Maldonado, Sutil, Kobayashi, then eventually Hulkenberg, Massa, etc.)

 

[TCRS]

+15kph, damn. Hamilton was unstoppable this weekend.

 

[ConstructMe]

Fuckin italians....smashed up grosjeans car 2 years straight now

 

[Yagami_Sama]

I just watched the race.

Poor Magnussen another good performance screwed. For a moment I though that he might be in top 3.
It is so sad to see the poor performance of McLaren's cars this season .

 

[Ark]

I'm really really pleased with how Monza turned out, it was a fantastic race all around, but we're going to have nothing to read/talk about for two weeks now :lol

 

[kiyomi]

I'm really really pleased with how Monza turned out, it was a fantastic race all around, but we're going to have nothing to read/talk about for two weeks now :lol

Ahem. Formula E.

 

[Ark]

Ahem. Formula E.

I'm excited for Formula E, but it won't generate the kind of discussion that makes a two-week wait any shorter

 

[TCRS]

Fuckin italians....smashed up grosjeans car 2 years straight now

well after he almost beheaded alonso...

 

[kiyomi]

I'm excited for Formula E, but it won't generate the kind of discussion that makes a two-week wait any shorter

I disagree. Imagine all the heated debates we can have about Ho-Pin Tung's incredibly mediocre and entirely silent battle with Daniel Abt.

 

[Shaneus]

I quit watching this after around lap 35 or so (I think?), didn't see Danny's move on Kimi. I guess I should watch the rest of it?

Judging by this thread, both Bo77as and Danny Ricky are future champions. Bottas getting to fourth from wherever the fuck he fell back to (and Danny to fifth!) is remarkable stuff.

 

[massivekettle]

I'm really really pleased with how Monza turned out, it was a fantastic race all around, but we're going to have nothing to read/talk about for two weeks now :lol

We will hear how Rosberg cracked/is doomed over the next week. And then it will be next week, and the run-up to Singapore, last upgrade packages for most teams, etc.

Time flies...

BTW, same insight from Mark Hughes:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/reports/2014-italian-gp-report/

That background was the source of Hamilton’s advantage over Rosberg at Monza throughout the weekend: the speed he was able to carry into the corners. His minimum speeds through the two Lesmos amazed those inside the team. They are the perfect big radius, but quick corners for Lewis. This was the key to a consistent sector two advantage over his team-mate in the order of two tenths.

Through the chicane-punctuated long straights of sectors one and three there was little difference in their speed – but it was derived in a different way. Hamilton as usual was able to carry slightly more speed into and through the turns and therefore there was less accelerating to do out of them.

Rosberg boosted the shortfall by using a map that delivered more of his electrical power – and that of course meant Hamilton could use a map that made more boost available at other parts of the track. Such as punching him out of Lesmo 1 harder than Rosberg. Furthermore, as usual Hamilton’s ease with a lively rear on turn in meant he was comfortable with a more rearwards brake bias than Rosberg, allowing more effective braking energy harvest – and better fuel consumption./

 

[Shaneus]

Ahaha, did you guys see a sign in the crowd under podium :

FIA UNDER INVESTIGATION
LACK OF LOUDNESS

Some Dutch fans

.

 

[theignoramus]

I wish I could find that kind of detailed telemetry analysis about the great teammates from the 80s and 90s. Senna/Prost, Mansell/Piquet, Prost/Hill, Mansell/Patrese, Hakkinen/Coulthard, Schumacher/Irvine, etc.

 

[Sajuuk]

3 cars per team next year?

This is the last year of F1 as we know it. In 2015 eight teams will contest the championship, with several teams entering three cars.
https://twitter.com/adam_s_parr/status/508624381158125568

 

[DBT85]

Just seen the race end.

Great race all around, lots of decent overtaking.

Great drive from Hamilton and Bottas after their scrappy starts. Great drive from Danny once again.

Lewis is winning the mind games over Nico IMO, both times Lewis put him under pressure he baulked and then couldn't come back at him once Lewis got past. I wonder how much that is going to be on his mind in the coming races. Interesting to see him exclude Lewis from the conversations in the room where they can refresh after the race and to see Lewis just keep his back to him throughout.

Button, Mag, Perez, Danny offering plenty of action as well.

Danny beating Vettel again.

Great race. Glad I managed to avoid the result at work for 8 hours!

3 cars per team next year?

This is the last year of F1 as we know it. In 2015 eight teams will contest the championship, with several teams entering three cars.
https://twitter.com/adam_s_parr/status/508624381158125568

I'll believe it when I see it. I would have thought it unfair for only some teams to field 3 cars and not others as Ferrari can afford it easily while Williams can't, and costs will go up considerably to get another car on the grid and pay the driver, mechanics, etc.

 

[ramparter]

Fuckin italians....smashed up grosjeans car 2 years straight now

Hmm, what?

 

[Aiii]

I'll believe it when I see it. I would have thought it unfair for only some teams to field 3 cars and not others as Ferrari can afford it easily while Williams can't, and costs will go up considerably to get another car on the grid and pay the driver, mechanics, etc.

On the other hand, you can employ another paydriver, you can sell more advertising space, you can spend more time during the weekend testing and developing without having to waste money on simulations, etc.

All in all it'll cost money, but it'll make some money too. It's not like Caterham are gonna be too worried about Ferrarri having an unfair advantage over them.

Besides, honestly, I'd rather have two less Caterham's on the grid and one more Mercedes and RBR car than the other way around.

 

[ConstructMe]

Hmm, what?

https://twitter.com/NicolaBILD/status/508278394694680576/photo/1


check this !

probly coz of belgium 2012.

 

[ramparter]

https://twitter.com/NicolaBILD/status/508278394694680576/photo/1


check this !

probly coz of belgium 2012.

LOL, sorry that was my first reaction because original post made me think of Grosjean's F1 car.

But man those Italians...

 

[Hammer24]

What happened to Hulkenberg? That's not the type of races he needs to get a seat at a top team.

He had serious problems getting his tyres in the working window. Still doesn´t know why.

 

[DBT85]

He had serious problems getting his tyres in the working window. Still doesn´t know why.

Teds notebook said there were problems with the floor and possibly the diffuser stalling.

 

[mrklaw]

sounds like Rosberg was lucky to have signed his contract when he did - might have been some second thoughts with recent events.

He's going to have to dig deep and just come to terms with being the pantomime bad guy for the rest of the season. If he can handle that he'll be ok.

 

[massivekettle]

sounds like Rosberg was lucky to have signed his contract when he did - might have been some second thoughts with recent events.

He's going to have to dig deep and just come to terms with being the pantomime bad guy for the rest of the season. If he can handle that he'll be ok.

Based on his reaction and Benson's analysis on BBC, I don't think he's handling the booing very well. However, to what extent will he be booed at the next couple of races. Don't see much booing happening aside from (maybe) Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil and USA (and even then...). He is extremely lucky that the run of GPs with educated/hardcore/passionate fans have come to an end with the conclusion of the European season.

 

[Zeppu]

So, where are they showing the Formula E races? Will BBC/Sky air them?

 

[itsgreen]

So, where are they showing the Formula E races? Will BBC/Sky air them?

Sky had a preview, so probably them...

 

[Juicy Bob]

In the UK, Formula-E races will be broadcast on ITV4 (same channel as BTCC) who have been showing a teaser for a few months now.

 

[Zeknurn]

So, where are they showing the Formula E races? Will BBC/Sky air them?

ITV is showing them in the UK.

 

[Hasney]

So, where are they showing the Formula E races? Will BBC/Sky air them?

It's on ITV4.

 

[Zeppu]

Great! Thanks guys.

 

[Aiii]

Can you watch ITV for free on their website?

 

[Hasney]

Can you watch ITV for free on their website?

I know you can main ITV, not sure about ITV4. Requires an account and an IP check to work.

 

[Aiii]

Ah, shame, region locks are no problem, but damn accounts.

 

[Addnan]

Ah, shame, region locks are no problem, but damn accounts.

Nothing special about the account, just requires an email address.

 

[dubc35]

Pretty good GP. It would have been better with softer tires for a two stop main strategy but was still pretty entertaining. I was hoping for a shootout at the end between the Mercs but oh well.

Williams 3rd in WCC, McL only 1 point up on FI.

Are double points only for drivers, or for constructors too?

 

[DrM]

Are double points only for drivers, or for constructors too?

Both.

 

[Cuddler]

3 cars per team next year?

This is the last year of F1 as we know it. In 2015 eight teams will contest the championship, with several teams entering three cars.
https://twitter.com/adam_s_parr/status/508624381158125568

That would be awesome, so many good drivers deserve a better chance:

Ferrari:Alonso, Raikkonen, Bianchi
Mercedes:Hamilton, Rosberg, Hulkenberg
Red Bull:Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat
McLaren:Magnussen, Button, Kobayashi

Spoiler

random guesses

 

[dubc35]

Both.

Dumb, I guess WCC is pretty much wrapped up so not going to be an issue there. Really hope it doesn't come into play so fucking Bernie can't say this gimmicky shit is good for F1.

 

[Dilly]

Ricciardo's overtakes were so great, very fun racer to watch. That last minute position switch on Perez and such a close overtake on Raikonnen were beautiful.

 

[Business]

Ricciardo's overtakes were so great, very fun racer to watch. That last minute position switch on Perez and such a close overtake on Raikonnen were beautiful.

Same for the cross behind Vettel at the variante della roggia when he thought he had the inside line covered.

 

[Dilly]

Same for the cross behind Vettel at the variante della roggia when he thought he had the inside line covered.

Yeah, just saw that one since I'm watching the recording.

Very nice, I'm becoming a bigger fan with every race he does in that Red Bull.

 

[DBT85]

On the other hand, you can employ another paydriver, you can sell more advertising space, you can spend more time during the weekend testing and developing without having to waste money on simulations, etc.

All in all it'll cost money, but it'll make some money too. It's not like Caterham are gonna be too worried about Ferrarri having an unfair advantage over them.

Besides, honestly, I'd rather have two less Caterham's on the grid and one more Mercedes and RBR car than the other way around.

They'd still do the same amount of simulations they do now, the maximum the rules allow. BUt paying for another set of mechanics, the extra haulage, the extra parts etc I think makes it unlikely they'll go for it. Imagine trying to get a new part ready for 3 cars.

 

[Zeknurn]

That would be awesome, so many good drivers deserve a better chance:

Ferrari:Alonso, Raikkonen, Bianchi
Mercedes:Hamilton, Rosberg, Hulkenberg
Red Bull:Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat
McLaren:Magnussen, Button, Kobayashi

Spoiler

random guesses

If three cars per team is the way we get to see Hulkenberg in a better car next season I'm all for it.

@pitlanetalk: Autosprint: The end of an era at Ferrari as Luca di Montezemolo looks set to be fired by FIAT boss, Sergio Marchionne. #F1 #Formula1

Monza was probably the final nail in the coffin.