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The Formula 1 2014 Season |OT2| Louder Than Formula E

H

Hammer24

Banned
malyce said:
MP4-28?
MP4-29?

Remember him relying on Lewis' setups back at McLaren? Every weekend this dude whines about the fucking car. He has a very narrow operating window and only shines during the inters>slick conditions which Hamilton and Alonso are also very good at, so I don't get why he's so highly praised for it. Oh, I remember, it's because of Canada 2011. The drive that all Button fans cling too. Button is known for capitalizing on other drivers' mishaps and playing it safe. He's average.
Click to expand...

We are still talking two different things. :)
What you are bringing up are examples from the race weekends. What I´m talking about is the time in between.
And for the bad cars - you surely do not want to suggest, that the (dev) driver is alone in the responsibility to bring the car forward? That formula has two sides to it: the driver giving the input and the engineers receiving and implementing it.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
In how many seasons has Button's car ended the year significantly stronger than when it started? Not an argument point, I'm genuinely interested. I've heard him called a great "car developer" and I'm wondering if the the data actually backs it up.

In the year he actually won the title, the car started off as unbeatable, then went backwards... but that was obviously for different reasons.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
Psychotext said:
In how many seasons has Button's car ended the year significantly stronger than when it started?
Click to expand...

It is nigh impossible to back the claim with hard data.
- all the teams do development, so simple comparisons don´t cut it.
- changes and developments from the engine manufacturers (and other suppliers) skew the picture

I´m going with what I´ve been told. Engineers are extremely happy to work with BUT, as he gives very concrete and not nebulous input, that's easy for them to translate. Its said his input brought the wind tunnel and the simulator enormously forward. And he´s able to work the other way around too: when the engineers show him a graph on a laptop and ask him to do something specific, he simply does. He doesn´t drive by feel, as so many of the raceday greats do.
Oh, and his looong overtime hours (fi in the simulator) sure gave him brownie points too.
 
M

malyce

Member
Hammer24 said:
We are still talking two different things. :)
What you are bringing up are examples from the race weekends. What I´m talking about is the time in between.
And for the bad cars - you surely do not want to suggest, that the (dev) driver is alone in the responsibility to bring the car forward? That formula has two sides to it: the driver giving the input and the engineers receiving and implementing it.
Click to expand...

1. I'm not that silly.

2. You don't build packages around driving styles[unless you're Newey lol]. No matter what the simulator says it comes down real world miles and driver input. I fail to see how a guy that whines about the car never having enough grip while his teammate constantly puts it on pole is the main guy you'd want giving inputs on car development direction.

kvk1 said:
Yeesh, the Button hate here is unreal.

It's like he personally wronged some of you.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone hates Button. He's a very like-able guy. What annoys people are those trying to oversell him as something he's not. Calling him average was just me being dickish, but it annoys me when people try to sell him as an Alonso or Hamilton when he's clearly not.
 
N

nature boy

Member
theignoramus said:
"Hamilton immaturity"
Like Fernando throwing a temper tantrum inside the Mclaren motor home and kicking things apart after being out-qualified at the Chinese GP. Clearly the more emotionally well grounded of the two Ron.
Click to expand...

You do realize Ron promised him number one status only to go back on his promise, right?
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
malyce said:
I fail to see how a guy that whines about the car never having enough grip while his teammate constantly puts it on pole is the main guy you'd want giving inputs on car development direction.
Click to expand...

I hope I answered some of this in my last post.


... but it annoys me when people try to sell him as an Alonso or Hamilton when he's clearly not.
Click to expand...

Who does this? He surely is not on the same level as them.
But he doesn´t need to, as he has other marketable skills.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
nature boy said:
You do realize Ron promised him number one status only to go back on his promise, right?
Click to expand...
I think what Ron has said today was about right. They were all at fault to some degree, they could have done things differently, was a long time ago let's move on. Surprised that Ron has actually owned up to some of the blame and seems he has had many meeting with Alonso over the past few months. People will seem to have a problem with getting their head around that there is no issues between the two anymore.
 
N

nature boy

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
I think what Ron has said today was about right. They were all at fault to some degree, they could have done things differently, was a long time ago let's move on. Surprised that Ron has actually owned up to some of the blame and seems he has had many meeting with Alonso over the past few months. People will seem to have a problem with getting their head around that there is no issues between the two anymore.
Click to expand...

I agree they have made amends and reached a level where they can have a working relationship, but I doubt the trust is there. I think Alonso will want to work with Boullier and Arai and avoid Ron at all costs.

But what's frustrating it how the British media and fans look at Alonso (complaining and wining) and don't have the same critical judgement to Lewis Hamilton who really isn't that different. He just puts on a pretty face to the media.

Benson reporting that Button's contract is after all a 1+1.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
nature boy said:
I agree they have made amends and reached a level where they can have a working relationship, but I doubt the trust is there. I think Alonso will want to work with Boullier and Arai and avoid Ron at all costs.

But what's frustrating it how the British media and fans look at Alonso (complaining and wining) and don't have the same critical judgement to Lewis Hamilton who really isn't that different. He just puts on a pretty face to the media.

Benson reporting that Button's contract is after all a 1+1.
Click to expand...
I agree, he will want to keep Ron at arm's length but the rumours were Ron was actively fighting against signing Alonso and that clearly was false.

I see 2007 as one of those things, 3 massive egos bumping together. They have moved on, no need to harp on about it.

1+1 is a good deal. Really happy with today.
 
Yagami_Sama

Yagami_Sama

Member
Alonso and Button for next year seems okay.
I still, for some reason, don't like Alonso, and it is hard for me to believe that he will stay with team for more than one season, but I hope that they manage to have a great car and won a few races.

I feel sorry for Magnussem, but at least he will stay with the team and maybe in 2016 season will be Vandorne's team mate.
 
F

Fantomex

Member
theignoramus said:
"Hamilton immaturity"
Like Fernando throwing a temper tantrum inside the Mclaren motor home and kicking things apart after being out-qualified at the Chinese GP. Clearly the more emotionally well grounded of the two Ron.
Click to expand...

Logic sense is tingling. It's like you would rather he talk bad about his wife and make his ex girlfriend look good. Of course he's going to blame it on Hamilton.
 
Mastah

Mastah

Member
H

Hasney

Member
How will Button survive in this harsh economic climate now :(

Makes sense though. Button just wants to be in F1 and isn't making the stupid mistake Damon Hill made by rejecting McLaren because he wasn't paid what a world champion should be worth.
 
N

NHale

Member
Spanish press is still standing firm on the 2+1 contract for Alonso they reported a long time ago.

Button's contract according to them is 1+1 with an automatic clause for Button if he manages at least 40% of the points of the team next year.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
DD said:
Ex-F1 driver Kamui Kobayashi sets Super Formula testing pace again
Click to expand...
"Ex"? I thought he was announced to be racing for Sauber again? Unless the article someone posted was from ages ago when he first joined them.

Hasney said:
So Alonso has 'unfinished business' with getting a world title with mcLaren.

I assume he'll be going back to Ferrari one day then to finish that business too?
Click to expand...
Just quietly, I'd say Ferrari's business is pretty much finished anyway, at least as far as Alonso (and their short-term future) is concerned.

Hammer24 said:
Look, there simply are different kinds of skill sets F1 teams are looking for. Only very few drivers combine several of those.
In BUT´s case, he has a very good and very special skill set, which is highly valued in F1 circles. And that's his ability to develop a car.
This will not always translate into awesome race action, but that's not necessarily necessary.

So in short: can´t we all just get along?! ;-)
Click to expand...
Don't forget, also by far the best wet weather driver on the grid. Not that it counts for much in real terms (especially in development) but it's something.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Shaneus said:
"Ex"? I thought he was announced to be racing for Sauber again? Unless the article someone posted was from ages ago when he first joined them.


Just quietly, I'd say Ferrari's business is pretty much finished anyway, at least as far as Alonso (and their short-term future) is concerned.


Don't forget, also by far the best wet weather driver on the grid. Not that it counts for much in real terms (especially in development) but it's something.
Click to expand...

He's the most consistent and intelligent driver in the wet since Schumacher in my opinion and MSC's wet racing skills were something else, finding puddles to cool his wet tires down etc.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
I don't think he's the best in the wet. Mixed conditions, almost certainly, but many other drivers have outshone him in pure wet conditions.
 
A

Ark

Member
Shaneus said:
Don't forget, also by far the best wet weather driver on the grid. Not that it counts for much in real terms (especially in development) but it's something.
Click to expand...

Until Button provides a drive like Hamilton at Silverstone 2008 or Suzuka 2014 I'm not going to give him that title :p
 
N

nature boy

Member
So Alonso confirmed he won't do Le Mans in 2015 out of respect for Honda (LOL) but he will definitely do it in the future.

He insisted on telling everyone that a team that is winning races wanted to sign him in the last year.

Red Bull?
Mercedes?
 
A

Ark

Member
I imagine Mercedes approached him as a precautionary backup in-case things went south between Lewis and Nico.
 
A

Ark

Member
Shaneus said:
What about Circuit Gilles Villeneuve 2011?
Click to expand...

We're talking about wet races, not damp races ;)

Canada 2011 was a huge show of skill from Button combined with an unbelievable amount of being in the right place at the right time. Button's area of expertise is a track going from damp to dry and finding the grip significantly quicker than everyone else. When it comes to properly wet races, there are drivers who perform at a higher level.
 
Mastah

Mastah

Member
Ark said:
Until Button provides a drive like Hamilton at Silverstone 2008 or Suzuka 2014 I'm not going to give him that title :p
Click to expand...

Well, Button drove fantastic race at Suzuka this year, so... ;)

But yeah, he's great in some circumstances, though in the same conditions at different venue he can suck. Badly. For every China 2010 or Brazil 2012 there is Korea 2010 or Malaysia 2012, when he was simply awful. Still, one of the best non-dry performers on the grid, without a doubt.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
nature boy said:
You do realize Ron promised him number one status only to go back on his promise, right?
Click to expand...

Then why is he blaming Lewis (for being too quick), he ought to be blaming himself for not keeping his word. There's a common denominator with disgruntled drivers leaving Mclaren because Ron is an asshole...Prost, Kimi, JPM,Lewis, Alonso.
Anyway, Fred cost himself that title in 07 with his poor showing Montreal.

He wanted so badly to put Lewis in his place off the start line, he overcooked it into the first corner, lost 4 or 5 places, failed to capitalize on the safety car following the Kubica crash, then got that penalty for ignoring the red light in the pit lane. That was nobody's fault but his own. A podium finish that race, he would have been champion at the end of season, even with all of his shenanigans at Hungary.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
Shaneus said:
Don't forget, also by far the best wet weather driver on the grid. Not that it counts for much in real terms (especially in development) but it's something.
Click to expand...
Hes the best at figuring out the grip in changing conditions, when it's a toss up between intermediates and slicks. He is very capable in the wet, but what he's known for is driving in conditions where the track is either drying or getting significantly wetter. Anyway, Im glad Jenson is till in F1. Next year, we should get a great evaluation of just how good he is as a driver. I believe him to be one of the best drivers on the grid (though with the current grid awash with pay drivers, thats not saying much), and I think he will take the fight to Alonso and outdrive him at least three or four races.
 
T

Templar Wizard

Member
Button will have an enjoyable time with Alonso next year, he wont have an on/off Hamilton this time or some unpolished younger driver.
Hopefully he can keep pace with Alonso and both of them push Honda to the top.

But we dont want second half of the Brawn season Button.

Merc is going to be a tough climb next year and the best Honda can hope is to do a Danny Ric type upset with a tight (and working) aero package that can push them to cover any PU deficit. Hopefully a victory here and there.
I waiting to buy tickets for Suzuka, hoping the samurai in a Honda on the Honda track can get a good result!

We need to see Alonso back on the podium!
 
R

ramparter

Banned
Realistically speaking, what can we actually expect? Sure Honda can do an amazing job but still thay are on a disadvantage. And McLaren was well behind the front runners.

I want to see them fighting for podiums and wins but I'm not that optimistic.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
ramparter said:
Realistically speaking, what can we actually expect? Sure Honda can do an amazing job but still thay are on a disadvantage. And McLaren was well behind the front runners.

I want to see them fighting for podiums and wins but I'm not that optimistic.
Click to expand...
What was their problem this year? They can't use the PU as an excuse, they had a Mercedes. Was it shit aero? Poor strategic choices? Or both? You have to admit, it's a bit astonishing that they were pounded by Williams with a fraction of the budget and powered by the same engine.
 
Mastah

Mastah

Member
They had 4th quickest car at the end of this season, so that would be a good starting point with new power unit. Alonso will then do his magic and Button will bring solid points too.

Friends inside the race team say that the 2015 chassis is already a good step faster in the simulator than the 2014 one and there are still three months of development time to Melbourne.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/...s-from-behind-the-scenes-of-a-day-at-mclaren/
Click to expand...

Let's just hope it's not the same case as it was with 2013 super duper McLaren in simulator.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Shaneus said:
What was their problem this year? They can't use the PU as an excuse, they had a Mercedes. Was it shit aero? Poor strategic choices? Or both? You have to admit, it's a bit astonishing that they were pounded by Williams with a fraction of the budget and powered by the same engine.
Click to expand...
Combination of being frozen out by Merc so designed the rear of their car for an engine they didn't get mixed with going down a wrong aero route.

I fully expect a red bull style car next year with ultra tight rear. I would have said it was far too early for peter p to work his magic but they knocked out a carbon copy of their front wing in 8 weeks so anything is possible I guess. Eric also said that front wing was important to prove a concept, must be the rbr concept aero.
 
B

brotkasten

Member
Mastah said:
They had 4th quickest car at the end of this season, so that would be a good starting point with new power unit. Alonso will then do his magic and Button will bring solid points too.



Let's just hope it's not the same case as it was with 2013 super duper McLaren in simulator.
Click to expand...

They can't be worse than Ferrari, who are standing still and not moving an inch forward from their terrible 2014 project.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
Hammer24 said:
It is nigh impossible to back the claim with hard data.
- all the teams do development, so simple comparisons don´t cut it.
- changes and developments from the engine manufacturers (and other suppliers) skew the picture

I´m going with what I´ve been told. Engineers are extremely happy to work with BUT, as he gives very concrete and not nebulous input, that's easy for them to translate. Its said his input brought the wind tunnel and the simulator enormously forward. And he´s able to work the other way around too: when the engineers show him a graph on a laptop and ask him to do something specific, he simply does. He doesn´t drive by feel, as so many of the raceday greats do.
Oh, and his looong overtime hours (fi in the simulator) sure gave him brownie points too.
Click to expand...

That's why the MP4-28 and -29 became race winners... oh wait

Button may give good feedback to engineers (and I actually believe that, given his extreme sensitivity to pretty much anything), but it sure isn't translating into stronger form on the race track.

This pairing should be interesting, but if Alonso is truly the best driver, I expect him (in the most bullish case) to beat him by a margin similar to the one Button beat Magnussen by this year. Or if the "2012 Lewis-type luck" hits Alonso next year, I expect him to beat Button like Lewis beat him in 2012 (small points margin but total domination in the H2H).
 
B

brotkasten

Member
DrM said:
Who is the engineering god now at Ferrari?
Click to expand...

The janitor, I think?

2015 should be Allison's project (which has been already criticized by the new Ferrari president) . Fry is still there (but who knows for how long), Tombazis is on his way out. Is there anyone else left?
 
D

Dutch Gronk

Banned
brotkasten said:
The janitor, I think?

2015 should be Allison's project (which has been already criticized by the new Ferrari president) . Fry is still there (but who knows for how long), Tombazis is on his way out. Is there anyone else left?
Click to expand...

I've been sending sketches to Maranello since the last race. Trust me, next year will be our year.
 
M

massivekettle

Member
DrM said:
Who is the engineering god now at Ferrari?
Click to expand...

Allison, Tombazis and Rory Byrne (helping in some capacity). So definitely not a hapless engineering team.

They have a lot of ground to catch up, but I have a feeling it's mostly to do with PU than actual chassis.
 
D

Dilly

Banned
ksharp said:
Allison, Tombazis and Rory Byrne (helping in some capacity). So definitely not a hapless engineering team.

They have a lot of ground to catch up, but I have a feeling it's mostly to do with PU than actual chassis.
Click to expand...

The car was so shit that Alonso made hand waving gestures at it in Abu Dhabi, they're not magically going to pull a decent car out for next year with the way things are going there.

The Red Bull was a great example of a strong aero package somewhat compensating for the crappy engine.
 
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