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The Formula 1 2014 Season |OT2| Louder Than Formula E
- Thread starter Addnan
- Start date
They've shown it plenty of times. Requires some skill by whoever is managing the camera/feed though. They likely attempt to capture it multiple times a race but given that that camera is not mounted on every car, and the difficulty in panning the camera at the exact moment of the overtaking manoeuvre, it becomes a fairly difficult task to capture the event no matter how many times the car gets overtaken.
Awesome view though
Aside from the double points, I have no problems with the current points system, there's 7 points between 1 and 2 and 3 points between 2 and 3.
If I compare that to the 6-driver point system of 10-6-4 we had in the 90s it's on par with that in difference between the positions and it's a lot better than the 8-driver point system where it was 10-8-6 and there were only 2 points between the positions.
I don't really see an issue with how they divide the points, a win still clearly gives you a good boost in points when your competitor comes in second and overall it seems a pretty fair comparison.
Unless you're trying to argue that only total numbers of race wins should count and the remaining points shouldn't matter unless there's a tie, of course.
If I compare that to the 6-driver point system of 10-6-4 we had in the 90s it's on par with that in difference between the positions and it's a lot better than the 8-driver point system where it was 10-8-6 and there were only 2 points between the positions.
I don't really see an issue with how they divide the points, a win still clearly gives you a good boost in points when your competitor comes in second and overall it seems a pretty fair comparison.
Unless you're trying to argue that only total numbers of race wins should count and the remaining points shouldn't matter unless there's a tie, of course.
I disagree.
Under the old system the winner got 66% more points than the second. Under the current one, the winner gets 47% more. I don't think it's enough of a difference.
The fact that one driver has 11 wins and the other has 5 and is still in the race with one race to go while only having very slightly more consistent results is proof of that, imo.
It would be an easy fix, winner gets 30 points, second gets 18, the rest stays as it is. Then you'd have the exact same margin that you used to have and you still give points to the first 10.
Under the old system the winner got 66% more points than the second. Under the current one, the winner gets 47% more. I don't think it's enough of a difference.
The fact that one driver has 11 wins and the other has 5 and is still in the race with one race to go while only having very slightly more consistent results is proof of that, imo.
It would be an easy fix, winner gets 30 points, second gets 18, the rest stays as it is. Then you'd have the exact same margin that you used to have and you still give points to the first 10.
What old system are we talking about?
The 10-6-4-3-2-1 system used until the end of 2002, or the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system from 2003-2009?
Because they increased the difference in points between first and second with the current system in 2010 deliberately to reward wins more. I think the current points system is great, other than the fact that it now renders all comparisons between drivers across generations totally irrelevant.
The 10-6-4-3-2-1 system used until the end of 2002, or the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system from 2003-2009?
Because they increased the difference in points between first and second with the current system in 2010 deliberately to reward wins more. I think the current points system is great, other than the fact that it now renders all comparisons between drivers across generations totally irrelevant.
I think you have to remember that this year is a very unique situation where two drivers have dominated the first two steps on the podium virtually all year in the most successful car, arguably, of all time.
Usually, Hamilton would have had the title won, but it's just that whenever he's had problems, Rosberg has been either winning or finishing in second each time thanks to the performance advantage of the Mercedes, rather than having a varied run of results throughout the season like you'd have in a more typical season where different cars would do better or worse depending on the circuit or other circumstances.
Usually, Hamilton would have had the title won, but it's just that whenever he's had problems, Rosberg has been either winning or finishing in second each time thanks to the performance advantage of the Mercedes, rather than having a varied run of results throughout the season like you'd have in a more typical season where different cars would do better or worse depending on the circuit or other circumstances.
All fair points, well made.
But I still think that the difference between winner and second should be larger. I also like a good moan.
nature boy
Member
I think V6 is a big thing for Mercedes as it leads to them being able to take a lot more of the R&D they do for F1 back to the roadcar department. They were rumours around of Daimler shutting them down in the last few years....And the switch to V6 was one of the main reasons they didn't.
theignoramus
Member
Looks like Ecclestone is proposing a Formula class in which the lesser funded teams dont have to abide by this new, insanely expensive formula and can possibly run the old normally aspirated engines.
It only makes all the sense in the goddamn world to do that and should have been done to begin with. Let Cosworth v8 and v10s onto the grid, bring back competing tyres manufacturers too. Why cant the sport be a mix of the old and the new, clearly what it is now doesnt work and is setting us up for the undesirable solution of three car teams on the grid.
Why should Mercedes care what the midfield teams run?
It only makes all the sense in the goddamn world to do that and should have been done to begin with. Let Cosworth v8 and v10s onto the grid, bring back competing tyres manufacturers too. Why cant the sport be a mix of the old and the new, clearly what it is now doesnt work and is setting us up for the undesirable solution of three car teams on the grid.
Why should Mercedes care what the midfield teams run?
Ecclestone seems to be making shit up as he goes along - even more than usual. How would a formula/class system work? The whole point of moving to V6s wasn't to get more power, it was to reduce fuel use etc - be more economical. It was also supposed to save money which seems laughable now (what the hell went wrong there?)
If you allow smaller teams to switch to older engines, won't they actually be more powerful? What incentive do the big teams have to move forwards with the V6s?
Ecclestone needs to push forwards with the cost reductions - there is no reason the V6s should cost so much. And he needs to restructure the payments to the teams to support the smaller teams - either financially or getting the larger teams to provide resources like engines to smaller teams at a significant discount.
theignoramus
Member
The v8s that revved to 18,000 rpm have about the same hp as the new engines, but much less torque. The v6 turbos would beat them handily down the straights. Its the old v10s that had more torque and were like 900hp.
As far as I'm concerned they go with Customer cars, personally I could give a shit if Marussia build it's own chassis and stuck a Ferrari engine opposed to buying a year-old Ferrari chasis along with that engine and stuck their own colors on it.
For one, the back teams would probably be more competitive by doing that than trying to build their own stuff. For another it would drastically reduce their costs as they no longer had to run their R&D department, aside from a small management office they'd only need the actual racing team.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the sport would be ruined by having customer cars either, as in the end a team is defined by it's driver and outward personality more than the shape of their chassis. When I think about Force India I think more off Malya than of anything else, what do I care if their chassis was an old McLaren?
I'd feel a bit bad about people losing their jobs, I guess, but imagine all the jobs that would have been saved over the years from all the teams that went under trying to build competitive cars with next-to-no-money. Better to have a smaller team with a stable future than a bigger team that will definitely not survive longer than half a decade.
For one, the back teams would probably be more competitive by doing that than trying to build their own stuff. For another it would drastically reduce their costs as they no longer had to run their R&D department, aside from a small management office they'd only need the actual racing team.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the sport would be ruined by having customer cars either, as in the end a team is defined by it's driver and outward personality more than the shape of their chassis. When I think about Force India I think more off Malya than of anything else, what do I care if their chassis was an old McLaren?
I'd feel a bit bad about people losing their jobs, I guess, but imagine all the jobs that would have been saved over the years from all the teams that went under trying to build competitive cars with next-to-no-money. Better to have a smaller team with a stable future than a bigger team that will definitely not survive longer than half a decade.
Nicktendo86
Member
Different engine classes to enable small teams to compete? Eurgh. Sounds like a total mess.
This is what happens when so much power is held by one man. A man who is not even head of the governing body but the commercial rights!
Where the hell is JT by the way?
This is what happens when so much power is held by one man. A man who is not even head of the governing body but the commercial rights!
Where the hell is JT by the way?
Really? I thought Alonso would be the reason Button was getting the boot. Come on McLaren, don't be stupid, everyone is pro Button except ... well you.
Didn't Renault said that the V8s wasn't interesting for their business?
massivekettle
Member
Toro Rosso did it in 2006; they ran a V10 limited to 16-17k RPM, whilst the rest of the paddock had moved on to the V8s (revving at 18k RPM).
theignoramus
Member
actually, back then, the v8s revved to over 19,000 rpm. The 18k limit was introduced in 2009 , so that the engines would be more reliable and teams would go through fewer engines over the course of a season.
I recall someone from Mercedes saying that w/o that rev limit, last year they couldve ran the engines at over 24,000 rpm with reliability to boot. What a sound that wouldve been! (I imagine fuel management wouldve been egregious though)
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
"Hopefully he will stay," said Alonso. "He is a very talented driver, a great character and good person. People like him are good for our sport.
"Whether we will see him on the grid, you need to ask McLaren."
would be the best pairing on the grid but mclaren are dumb.
omnicorse says 13 people got fired by mclaren the other day, next seasons car will be radical in its design, one of the reasons why alonso is joining, they also say woking favour keeping button for his development feedback.
they aren't fooling me, button is done.
Nicktendo86
Member
I don' believe Alonso, he will want to be the de facto number 1 in the team no doubt. Button looked more relaxed this weekend, wouldn't be shocked if he has signed with another team.
Exciting times for McLaren anyway, could be a disaster or massive success. Will be fun either way!
Exciting times for McLaren anyway, could be a disaster or massive success. Will be fun either way!
Psychotext
Member
At this rate it's going to be a court decision that announces their drivers rather than the team.
@ramparter: Don't worry, it's a joke
Big Takeover
Member
If it were up to me, this is exactly what I would do. Learn from the success and failures of how MotoGP has handled the exact same problem, and go from there. Hopefully in a few years time the current power units can offered at a more reasonable price, and the bridge will be shorter for those who'd like to cross it, or perhaps the need for a second tier will be negated, at which point they could get rid of it.
That would be my guess as well but at the same time I can also see Ron Dennis getting cheap with his drivers like he always does.
Also Jenson Button comments this weekend were pointed towards the team. He looked angry towards McLaren. So who knows? Maybe Alonso goes to Sauber after all.
mangochutney
Member
A good line up, but a very expensive one too."Hopefully he will stay," said Alonso. "He is a very talented driver, a great character and good person. People like him are good for our sport.
"Whether we will see him on the grid, you need to ask McLaren."
would be the best pairing on the grid but mclaren are dumb.
omnicorse says 13 people got fired by mclaren the other day, next seasons car will be radical in its design, one of the reasons why alonso is joining, they also say woking favour keeping button for his development feedback.
they aren't fooling me, button is done.
For that reason alone I think we'll see the K Mag.
nature boy
Member
Living the bon vivant life.
This whole V8-V6 is just a negotiation tactic for 2015, for 2015 all teams have to agree but for 2016 it's just a majority, Renault and Ferrari don't want to wait a year:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116717
All long as they don't pass the costs to the smaller teams, I'm good.
Mercedes are acting like dicks in all this IMO.
But it would be hilarious if we had V8 and V6 engines and people saying "this one sounds amazing but this one sounds like shit". I don't any race promoter is happy with the sound of the V6.
"Develop the engine"? Hahaha.
I've said this before, but the V8 engines didn't sound great either. A high pitched mopedy whine is not a pleasant sound imo.
If they want good sounding engines, they have to go back to V12's.
edit: probably posted this before, but the V8's and even V10's sound horrendous compared to the good old days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EctHizz_yNo
The V12 is like music.
edit: another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ITS_rYisw
Beautiful.
If they want good sounding engines, they have to go back to V12's.
edit: probably posted this before, but the V8's and even V10's sound horrendous compared to the good old days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EctHizz_yNo
The V12 is like music.
edit: another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ITS_rYisw
Beautiful.
Psychotext
Member
V10 for me. Not a massive fan of the V12.
I guess I read it as develop the package (engine/chassis/systems integration)
No way. The V10s are what most people think of when they imagine an F1 car flying down a straight. It's the perfect F1 sound.
I'd be ok with this. wasnt there talk of a single chassis supplier a while back (soneone like dallara)?
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Nice Kimi jab there.
About time.. announce it already..
But that doesn't make sense. They'd go back to the cheaper V8's which they had an inferior package? or allow teams to play catch up and most probably fail anyway?
I preferred the V12's because they had more body to their sound. Throatier and dirtier.
Mercedes are acting like dicks, but how do you think Red Bull or Ferrari would behave if it was them with that engine?
Red Bull especially have had years being dominant
Not really a jab, but nobody can deny it was a case of "two dogs fighting over a bone" type of situation. As I said, in the end the person that has the most points becomes the -well deserved- champion.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
You can't really judge the sound fairly from a youtube. I was lucky enough to hear the V10s and V8s and tried to hear the V6s this year. I wouldn't mind the V8s to be honest. Compared to the silent shit we have now, they were majestic
Can't really comment on the V12s
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Most points, most wins, less mistakes. And his bad luck was the icing on the cake
Can't say the same about Button or if Rosberg wins it this year