brotkasten
Member
The have no obligation to provide them with top tier a-spec engines and they're not responsible for Red Bull's bad management either.
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The Formula 1 2015 Season |OT| Formula E Feeder Series
- Thread starter Ark
- Start date
The have no obligation to provide them with top tier a-spec engines and they're not responsible for Red Bull's bad management either.
nature boy
Member
Of course not, but they also don't have to offer them 2015 engines either. Not sure of bad management either, outside of some communication faux pas. Everyone has dumped Renault outside of the Red Bull teams.
I guess next year will be an all Mercedes podium every GP. Yay.
PdotMichael
Banned
The same Red Bull doesn't must invest an incredible amount of money into the F1 business and infrastructure.
But I guess people are happy to see Mercedes vs Ferrari (if you can call it a battle) + filler teams.
That............ I would watch that.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
That would be awesome
Psychotext
Member
They've left sports before when they didn't get their own way, so it's not without precedent.
brotkasten
Member
I'm not diminishing Red Bull's investment into the sport anymore.
But I still don't see how it gives them the right to demand the best engine from their direct competitors. They should've gotten their shit together before ending the relationship with Renault.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, Red Bull joined in 2005 (after buying a factory team).
Most of the teams back in 2005 don't exist anymore - especially all the factory teams like Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault.
Not sure about the narrative that Red Bull basically lucked into a dominant Newey car and are just butthurt that they leave because they aren't winning anymore, although they were the only one who were ready to invest several years with a top tier budget until they archived the first results.
Why staying in F1 if they know they are stuck as mid tier team? Teams left for less.
Most of the teams back in 2005 don't exist anymore - especially all the factory teams like Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault.
Not sure about the narrative that Red Bull basically lucked into a dominant Newey car and are just butthurt that they leave because they aren't winning anymore, although they were the only one who were ready to invest several years with a top tier budget until they archived the first results.
Why staying in F1 if they know they are stuck as mid tier team? Teams left for less.
Mateschitz will pull the plug the second he's fed up with everything, and from the past few months and today's Autosport article (Lauda saying that 'Didi' is bored with F1 now) it seems like that is very much the case. The honeymoon period for Red Bull is over and tbh I'd consider their threat of leaving to be fully genuine.
brotkasten
Member
Of course it sucks that we're stuck with three engine manufacturers that aren't nearly on the same level, but again, Red Bull can't just demand a competitive engine from their direct competitors. If what Horner said is true, even a 2015 Ferrari engine is an upgrade over whatever Renault comes up with next year. They should've started their own engine initiative or started negotiations much sooner. But crying foul because they ditched their current partner and don't get treated like a works team by Ferrari and Mercedes is a bit much.
Big Takeover
Member
They can actually. The rules stipulate that all teams are supposed to be using the same model year engine. Marussia, who does not, is being allowed to skirt the rule (somehow).
If Ferrari want to give RB 2015 engines, they'll have to change the rules to allow that, which is something being discussed. My understanding is the lower teams do not want that however, so it seems unlikely to happen.
Differences within the same model year is a different story though. Those are contractual matters, and what I imagine to be the heart of the matter.
Jezbollah
Member
It's differences within the same model year spec engine which Red Bull are complaining about. They want "works" status with the factory team which IMO is something they'll never get.
EDIT:
DAAAAAAAMN.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Didn't Red Bull B team drop Ferrari for Renault? Karma is a bitch.
brotkasten
Member
That's the other issue. Horner demands works team status and why on earth would Ferrari or Mercedes allow that?
"I'd be very surprised if Mercedes were prepared to give us an engine," he said. "Ferrari has a customer programme but we want to work as a works partner. That, for the longer term, offers us the best chance of success."
Horner in 2014
Yup. I'm still not sure why they did that, but whatever.
JadedWriter
Member
They can either take the 2015 Ferrari engines, some new fangled Honda shit or walk. Those seem like the only options.
nature boy
Member
Will it still be karma when Red Bull leaves and the grid loses 2 teams?
i doubt we'll see the loss of those 2 teams even if the Red Bull owner pulls the plug.. remember both teams are just renamed and rebuild Jaguar and Minardi. There'll be someone to either buy the teams from him or fill the spot anyway.
Red Bull leaving F1, even with their success in the last 6 years, have no weight behind their name in Formula 1. There will be people replacing them
Fox Mulder
Member
That sounds like a prayer really. Redbull spends tons of money, develops drivers, and renovated a track. we're just supposed to hope another company out there is eagerly quietly waiting to jump in and do the same? We might just get a new rich buyer who can only fund it like a Force India or Sauber too.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Red Bull is no idiot, they either want to get out and the cheapest way to do so is by not getting an engine, otherwise they are bound til 2018. Or they think with Manor and Lotus and FI there is a good chance that F1 can't afford to risk four more cars. Ecclestone knows Red Bull isn't a financial liability. Under the third car rule Ferrari and Mercedes could be forced to give engines to the Red Bull teams if the other teams file for bankruptcy. In the end they will probably just take the 2015 Ferrari, that engine was robust and good for three victories so far and Red Bull has better aerodynamics than Ferrari.
There is no one on this planet who's going to invest 400 million per season in a F1 team, and definitely not in 2.
nature boy
Member
Well the only credible alternative (VW) is gone, they aren't manufacturers itching to get into F1.
In essence there's no one with Red Bull cash and the whole Mercedes not-showing-on-TV is clearly an attempt to put the pressure on them.
BTW did Ferrari get any coverage?
PdotMichael
Banned
Why should a rich company invests a lot of money into F1 anyway if they know that they will never get into a position where there is some return because of Mercedes' and Ferrari's engine policy?
Actually, if there was a serious open wheel competitor to F1, with proper funding, proper TV coverage, proper marketing and great drivers? That would be amazing. For the viewer, for racing and even for F1, who desperately need a competitor to force them to step their game up and build the sport around the viewer instead of servicing the whims of a senior citizen and a bunch of works teams afraid to lose their top spot.
If RB has to leave the sport, this scenario would be the best thing ever.
It's fun to dream
nature boy
Member
Because they trusted an engine provider that they won 8 titles not to produce a terrible engine with the new regulations.
nature boy
Member
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Redbull are stupid. They should've stuck with Renault until they sorted themselves out
I wouldn't be surprised if they co-buy Lotus with Ranault have cross-holding shares with them in Torro Rosso, with a condition to give priority to Redbull and use Lotus for testing and grooming new talents, just like Torro Rosso. I can't see them quit the sport, not after investing all these millions
I think Ferrari are doing the right thing. Last thing they need is to shoot themselves in the foot right after resurrecting back to life after last year's nightmare.
Mercedes on the other hand don't owe anything to the sport, they bought a dying team and planned it right and invested a lot to reach where they are. So why would they give it all away to the team that was dominating for 4 years?
Now is it ethical? and all this BS? probably not, but we go back to the sport's environment which is fucked up big time. It's all BS from any angle you look at it
Even if that means Wonderboy gone?
What's that, mate? Couldn't hear you over the sounds of Sainz screeching tires as Max shows him who's the #1 driver...
Just having the same engine doesn't mean they will be able run them as efficiently as the works team.
Because if that was the case, why are all the Mercedes teams so much slower than Mercedes themselves?
Because they get b-spec engines.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Because Mercedes are better with their aero?
Remember Brawn? and engine more or less taped to the back of that Honda and ripped everyone else apart.
Very risky for Ferrari imho
EDIT: plus, All the other teams that have Mercedes engines don't have even half the budget so they're not really a big risk. They can always outdevelop them during the season
Fox Mulder
Member
Mercedes has nothing to fear from teams like Force India or even Williams using their engines. A Redbull with a merc engine would be very competitive.
Red Bull will get the same engine as Sauber. Giving them a 2015 engine is an absolute non-starter, it would leave Red Bull even further behind than they are now, they'd never go for it even if Ferrari were giving them away. Giving them works status would result in a great emphasis being placed on Ferrari's car-building, especially if Red Bull beat them. All the PR bluster is just negotiating tactics. There's no way Mateschitz would put up with 2007 and 2008 only to pull out now.
Mohonky
Member
A lot if people don't understand the relationship between the engines and the fuel supplier.
Merc are with Petronas, a huge petrochemical supplier. They design their engine around the combustion and lubrication properties of what they will be using while Petronas are always seeking to improve their product also, which has an effect of his the engine is developed.
Ferrari use Shell, both companies build their engines around what their partners are providing also.
Other teams have different sponsors and are using their sponsors fuels etc, so the works engine will never be exactly the same as the customers, it'll always be running a slightly less optimised and efficient system.
Red Bull are dillusional to think they can get anything close to the works teams. Its just them thinking they can throw their weight around and expect the FIA and Bernie to force the others to do what Red Bull want because of some delusion that they are above everyone else.
If Red Bull are going to put on this sort of turn every time they have a shitty they should just leave now.
I have no idea how Manor got on the grid in the first place this year.
What engines are lotus using at the moment? Theyve been doing well, seems a shame for them to have to use Renault engines next year.
They switched from Renault last year to Mercedes this year, and now back to Renault next year :lol