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[Mohonky]

Don't know much about cars, are V8s inherentely easier to make than V6+turbo and thus should level the playing field?

Yes and no. Turbo engines are more complicated, but they aren't something the engineers haven't got their heads around, they've been around for some time, you used to be able to choose smaller capacity with turbo or larger capacity with no turbo in the championship a long time ago.

The problem is the power unit, that's what the engineers are struggling with. The whole hybrid design is complicated because it both adds electrical power to the drive train as well as being used to supplement how the combustion engine works. That's the hard part. You need to be able to recover and harvest as much electrical energy as possible and then deploy it in a way that it enhances the combustion engine, powers the electric motors and can be used as often for as long as possible.

That's were the team's are struggling. Merc got their head around it straight out of the gate, Ferrari are getting it, Honda believe their internal combustion engine is as strong as Merc and Ferrari but they are struggling with the electrical side of things as the car just isn't making good use of the electrical power and it seems to continually run out of it while Renault are just struggling.

You have to remember though they are pushing these components as hard as possible and designing them to be right on the edge of what's possible so reliability will always be but of a problem in motor racing no matter what and in terms of performance, any deficit will always be magnified by the small margins that make up the difference between being at the front or the back of the grid.

Personally I like the hybrids. F1 has always been a technical sport but it should also be in some ways relevant technologically to road vehicles and that's where it's all heading; hybrids. You only need to look at the current fastest Super cars being produced to see it's benefits.

What they've done with using the electrical power to maintain boost in the turbos, the harvesting, the deployment, it's all relevant to road cars today and is the future. Going back to V8s comes across as a dead end to me. If they aren't hybrids of some sort what is the point when that's where we're headed?

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Yes and no. Turbo engines are more complicated, but they aren't something the engineers haven't got their heads around, they've been around for some time, you used to be able to choose smaller capacity with turbo or larger capacity with no turbo in the championship a long time ago.

The problem is the power unit, that's what the engineers are struggling with. The whole hybrid design is complicated because it both adds electrical power to the drive train as well as being used to supplement how the combustion engine works. That's the hard part. You need to be able to recover and harvest as much electrical energy as possible and then deploy it in a way that it enhances the combustion engine, powers the electric motors and can be used as often for as long as possible.

That's were the team's are struggling. Merc got their head around it straight out of the gate, Ferrari are getting it, Honda believe their internal combustion engine is as strong as Merc and Ferrari but they are struggling with the electrical side of things as the car just isn't making good use of the electrical power and it seems to continually run out of it while Renault are just struggling.

You have to remember though they are pushing these components as hard as possible and designing them to be right on the edge of what's possible so reliability will always be but of a problem in motor racing no matter what and in terms of performance, any deficit will always be magnified by the small margins that make up the difference between being at the front or the back of the grid.

Personally I like the hybrids. F1 has always been a technical sport but it should also be in some ways relevant technologically to road vehicles and that's where it's all heading; hybrids. You only need to look at the current fastest Super cars being produced to see it's benefits.

What they've done with using the electrical power to maintain boost in the turbos, the harvesting, the deployment, it's all relevant to road cars today and is the future. Going back to V8s comes across as a dead end to me. If they aren't hybrids of some sort what is the point when that's where we're headed?

Thanks for your post. Clears up a lot of things for me

I agree with you. Hybrids are the future, but you don't bring forward the future at the cost of a sport. F1 is a sport first and an R&D field second

The introduction of the engines was premature, and it was accompanied by so many stupid restrictions to "cut costs", F1 had no direction, and still doesn't have a clear one. People will play it the way that benefits them

If you want a new technology, you have to allow manufacturers to experiment and that costs money. So if you want to cut costs, you simply don't introduce a radical change in the formula

It's just F1 currently has a lot of fundamental issues, even if you have the power and will to fix it you won't even know where to start.

 

[Aiii]

Hamilton Championship chart for the US race:

Hamilton   Vettel	  Rosberg
1	   3 or lower	  n/a
2	   6 or lower	  3 or lower
3	   8 or lower	  5 or lower
4	   9 or lower	  5 or lower
5	   10 or lower	  6 or lower

 

[Mobius 1]

A wet COTA?
has any race been wet there?
I'm only familiar with MotoGP and F1.

Last year's WEC event was rained on, and it was chaos.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

You did, they even made it to Q2 once or twice. Full Honda Power just isn't all that much.

This season I've seen the Honda gimped by the ERS, it's not been run at full tilt due to required fuel saving, it has no qualifying mode, etc.

Full Honda power is coming next season where it will propel McLaren to the front.

Believe it!

 

[Aiii]

This season I've seen the Honda gimped by the ERS, it's not been run at full tilt due to required fuel saving, it has no qualifying mode, etc.

Full Honda power is coming next season where it will propel McLaren to the front.

Believe it!

I will believe it when I see it.

Spoiler

I won't see it.

 

[Jezbollah]

I'm hunting around for the best odds on a Alonso title next year for the lulz.

 

[dubc35]

If McHonda finishes 4th next year I would consider that a huge leap. I don't see them beating MER or FER, doubtful to beat WIL, and RBR is up in the air pending power unit so who knows with them.

 

[JadedWriter]

Last year's WEC event was rained on, and it was chaos.

If it's that bad Berndt Meylander is going to be a very busy person come Sunday.

 

[Aiii]

If it's that bad Berndt Meylander is going to be a very busy person come Sunday.

Massa is going to have a nervous breakdown.

 

[JadedWriter]

Massa is going to have a nervous breakdown.

"I need a WHITE VISOR!"
"Stay cool Felipe baby"

 

[Mastah]

If it's that bad Berndt Meylander is going to be a very busy person come Sunday.

Sunday should be ok, but Friday and Saturday... I foresee a lot of red flags and cancelled practice sessions:

 

[tomtom94]

Have to admit if I were putting bets on one Grand Prix to suffer monsoon rain I don't think it would have been this one.

 

[Psychotext]

I just hope it's not so bad that they spend the entire race behind the safety car.

 

[Aiii]

"I need a WHITE VISOR!"
"Stay cool Felipe baby"

I wonder if they accidentally left baby Massa in the bathtub to pick up the phone when he was younger or something. His fear of water is rather worrying.

 

[gutterboy44]

Hahah, I just saw a random Felipe Massa video posted on my facebook feed. It is his son blasting around in this little drift go-kart. Those things look fun, I want one.
https://www.facebook.com/massafelipe19/videos/510753839098754/

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Looks like Honda have trimmed more fat off:

 

[JadedWriter]

I wonder if they accidentally left baby Massa in the bathtub to pick up the phone when he was younger or something. His fear of water is rather worrying.

Wasn't he lapped in Silverstone 08? Seems like he's always been horrible in wet conditions.

 

[Goldrusher]

Toro Rosso has some fun with a mechanical bull:

Sainz: https://twitter.com/ToroRossoSpy/status/656866992285200384?lang=en-gb
Max: https://twitter.com/ToroRossoSpy/status/656869094545825794
Jos: https://twitter.com/ToroRossoSpy/status/656876880155582465?lang=en-gb

 

[Aiii]

One of many reasons why losing Red Bull would be terrible for F1.

 

[Mastah]

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1 13m13 minutes ago

Vettel to take fifth engine and 10-place grid penalty this weekend. Was always planned, he said

.

 

[Zeknurn]

.

Räikkönen too.

 

[Mastah]

Yeah:

Tobias Grüner ‏@tgruener 7m7 minutes ago

#F1 Both Ferrari drivers will get new combustion engines (+10 grid penalty) for Austin. According to my info, no tokens have been spent.

 

[Aiii]

Well Ricciardo just got a manager.

So, that happened.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Can't wait for the

Spoiler

Formula E

race.

 

[ElTorro]

.

Bummer.

There goes Vettel's WDC. ;-P

 

[Mobius 1]

It's going to rain so much that it broke the color scale for the TV forecaster.

Thinking of renting this to reach the circuit on Sunday.

 

[stryke]

Well Ricciardo just got a manager.

So, that happened.

Should have had one a long time ago.

 

[aspiegamer]

We survived the Japanese GP but it's the race in goddamn Texas that's going to be influenced by a hurricane.

The previous forecast runs from Thursday evening showed perhaps some breaks by Sunday afternoon but the hurricane powering this has exploded in strength to the third-most intense in recorded history in the past few hours, so that means more energy dispersed upstream in Texas. That estimate map feels somewhat exaggerated; Much is dependent on where what will likely be one band of extremely heavy rain that barely moves is, similar to what happened in South Carolina recently. It's essentially impossible to forecast this until 6-12 hours in advance. From what I know of COTA it's simultaneously awesome for drainage but with some nasty spots of rolling water up the hill to turn 1 and through the esses downhill in sector 1. At Suzuka the cars get the minor benefit of going uphill and at Silverstone the apexes are on drainage crests, comparatively.

 

[Shaneus]

Well Ricciardo just got a manager.

So, that happened.

He didn't have one before?

Spoiler

Hope it's Webber

 

[stryke]

He didn't have one before?

No, during the earliest parts of silly season when he was linked to Ferrari he said he didn't have a manager, thinking Red Bull would be a safe choice for some years to come (he's signed until '17 or '18, can't remember). Recent events probably changed that.

 

[brotkasten]

Well Ricciardo just got a manager.

So, that happened.

Very good. Now he can begin his move to Ferrari in 2017.

Vettel meltdown incoming!

 

[Mohonky]

Bummer.

There goes Vettel's WDC. ;-P

Not unexpected, Ferraris last throw if the power unit dice, no point in having a better unit sitting there doing nothing, they might as well take the hit and have a go, he and Rosberg are a long shot for the championship so might as well through the dice.

Beside that, if the weather is looking as bad as it is, it could be the best time to do take that hit as the rain could be a good equalizer.

 

[mclem]

Looks like Honda have trimmed more fat off:

Should probably remove the engine completely, cut a hole in the floor, and Fred Flintstone it. Button does triathlons, he'd probably be faster than the normal car.

 

[Mastah]

Not unexpected, Ferraris last throw if the power unit dice, no point in having a better unit sitting there doing nothing, they might as well take the hit and have a go, he and Rosberg are a long shot for the championship so might as well through the dice.

Beside that, if the weather is looking as bad as it is, it could be the best time to do take that hit as the rain could be a good equalizer.

It's the same power unit spec as used at Monza.

 

[jey_16]

i don't understand why they would not use the remaining tokens? are they carried forward to next year?

 

[stryke]

First time I've heard of this...

Both Haas and the Enstone-based Lotus squad are known to be watching the Red Bull situation closely just in case any of its contracted drivers becomes available for 2016.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...s-on-global-stardom-with-new-management-deal/

I thought Lotus said they already had a replacement for Grosjean.

 

[Zeknurn]

Prost shatters Beijing track record

The season two Formula E cars are lapping four seconds faster around the Beijing ePrix circuit.

In the collective test session today, Nicolas Prost topped the timesheets with a best lap of 1:37.291s, which compares to the best lap of 1:41.341s, which was set last year by Bruno Senna in second practice.
Some of the pace difference is accounted for by the changes to the track. The first chicane has been removed, while what was the second chicane has been made tighter and slower.

In a good session for Renault e.dams, Sebastien Buemi was second fastest and the only other driver in the 1:37s. Third fastest was Jean-Eric Vergne, recording a 1:39.405s for DS Virgin Racing,
Senna and new Mahindra Racing team-mate Nick Heidfeld were fourth and fifth fastest, recording laps of 1:39.670s and 1:39.909s respectively.

Oliver Turvey was sixth for NEXTEV TCR, but it was a tough session for team-mate Nelson Piquet Jr. Piquet caused the session to be red-flagged when he ground to a halt mid-way through. With the NEXTEV TCR car stopping at a section of cones on the circuit in preparation for some track repair, there was no choice but to suspend the running.
Neither Trulli driver took part in the session.

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/october/prost-shatters-beijing-track-record.aspx

I haven't been this excited for the start of a season in years.

 

[JadedWriter]

Should probably remove the engine completely, cut a hole in the floor, and Fred Flintstone it. Button does triathlons, he'd probably be faster than the normal car.

Replace the engine with bike pedals. They're both very seasoned bikers they should be able to last the whole race.

 

[Psychotext]

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/october/prost-shatters-beijing-track-record.aspx

I haven't been this excited for the start of a season in years.

Should be good. The season after this is where it really kicks off though.

 

[brotkasten]

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/october/prost-shatters-beijing-track-record.aspx

I haven't been this excited for the start of a season in years.

And I can't watch it live. Noooooo!

 

[Zeknurn]

Meanwhile in Formula 1.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/23/monisha-kaltenborn-trades-insults-with-niki-lauda/

Last week, Niki Lauda expressed his views on the EU complaint being made by Sauber and Force India. Niki said that neither Monisha Kaltneborn nor Bob Fernley should have engaged in this process and that the contracts they signed with Bernie Ecclestone for the monies they receive were willingly agreed.

“They signed the Concorde Agreement where everything was stipulated to the last detail, and then they say ‘This is suddenly not valid.’ I don’t understand the reasoning. Like every other sport, F1 has always had teams that win and teams that are behind,” said Lauda adding: “You can’t have a team that is steadily accumulating debt and then suddenly as a last resort tries to bring the whole system into question. Everyone is responsible for himself. Sauber should fight first against their own inabilities.”

Lauda then turned his guns on Kaltenborn suggesting that Sauber are unable to manage their own business properly. Niki called her decision “stupid” to sign four drivers for 2016 when her team had just 2 race seats.

The Sauber boss has responded to Lauda in the Swiss media, stating he is either disinterested or incapable of understanding the idea of ‘abuse of a dominant position’, where teams are told by Ecclestone to sign the contract on offer or bugger off.

She also criticises Daimler-Benz for allowing someone who speaks on behalf of one of their brands to make such “unintelligent“ comments. Kaltenborn concludes that Lauda “should know better” given his ‘back to the wall’ experience he faced with his airline.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/23/red-bull-talks-with-honda-underway/

TJ13 learned last night that intensive talks are currently under way between Red Bull and Honda for a 2016 F1 engine supply. This appears the last option open to Mateschitz ‘A’ team given Ferrari and Mercedes have stated they will not provide Red Bull with an engine. McLaren’s position on Red Bull partnering with Honda for 2016 is unknown at present.

As TJ13 has continued to exclusively report, The Bull’s Milton Keynes HQ has developed and is running an engine testing facility in its building 9. The plan was to partner with a VW brand and introduce a ‘new’ manufacturer engine in 2017. Ferrari and Mercedes learned of this plan and it made their decision to refuse Red Bull a power unit for 2016 even more catagoric.

Red Bull have been working on the design and development of an ERS unit, which is not so surprising when considering McLaren were keen to offer expertise to assist Honda in this area.

In addition, Bernie Ecclestone has been making a lot of noise about F1 needing an ‘independent‘ engine supplier like Cosworth. TJ13 has also learned that together with Mario Illien, Cosworth are collaborating with Red Bull on a feasibility project aimed longer term at producing an F1 internal combustion engine.

 

[Aiii]

Next years Honda is still gonna be mediocre, but the rule changes will help a lot. From 2017 it's anyone's bet.

In the long run going for Honda probably isn't too bad and definitely better than going for an engine supplier with a works team, but I'm not sure what Honda's agreement with McLaren is as far as exclusivity goes.

 

[JadedWriter]

Oh god I can wait for the epic whine fest from Horner if they get Honda engines. That thing just recently stopped sounding like a bag of hammers.

 

[ElTorro]

Upgrading from Renault to Honda because of reliability and performance issues.

lol

 

[tomtom94]

"Mclaren's position on Honda negotiating with Red Bull is unknown at present"

Um, it's pretty well-documented they have the power of veto, no?

 

[Tempy]

Team Trulli to miss Beijing ePrix

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/october/trulli-to-miss-beijing-eprix.aspx

 

[Psychotext]

"Mclaren's position on Honda negotiating with Red Bull is unknown at present"

Um, it's pretty well-documented they have the power of veto, no?

That's not the same as knowing where they stand though. They could veto it, sure, but they might also decide that having another team provide data might be worth it, as long as they're still the "works" team.

 

[Shaneus]

Oh god I can wait for the epic whine fest from Horner if they get Honda engines. That thing just recently stopped sounding like a bag of hammers.

Which thing... the Honda or Horner?

 

[JadedWriter]

Which thing... the Honda or Horner?

The Honda, I don't pay too much attention to Red Bull currently. It's just the same whining...Horner might as well sound like a deflating balloon at this point.