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The GAF POP |OT| of Diversity, Hidden Talent, and Stan Wars

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D

Dr. Malik

FlatAss_
Second said:
image.php


Who is that? No shade, just wondering.
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demiGOD Lovato
 
Nemesis_

Nemesis_

Member
I don't know if I would go as far to say that Madonna had nothing to do with a feminist movement in the industry. >_> That's just a little bit TOO RIDICULOUS. >_>
 
S

SecretMoblin

Member
royalan said:
In my opinion there is never anything wrong with appreciating the discussion of social issues through performance art, even if it is ultimately a product. I mean, at the end of the day, popular music is ultimately a reflection of culture, so why is it so impossible to think that an artist might shoot for communicating something substantial and culturally relevant?
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I agree, ultimately. But you made the claim that Stripped "rocked the boat". It really didn't.

You want "rocking the boat"? Loretta Lynn had songs pulled from the radio because she dared to talk about issues like birth control and the double standards for men... in songs that were released before Christina was born.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to have a substantial message in a pop product, of course. But there is something wrong when we start positing a false reality, that Christina did more to change society than she really did. That's all.


And it's not a holy war! I'm just sort of tired of the whole stan wars --> she makes serious music I swear --> stan wars cycle.
 
K

Kyon

Banned
royalan said:
Yeah. He's waging Holy War for some reason...
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Pop stars became RELEVANT in those times and when Britney came along is when it BOOMED idt anyone said it started there. But in the late 90's/early2000's pop music took over everything. Before that were the days of rock n roll and all that.

EDIT: IC what mob meant to say now nvm
 
R

royalan

Member
SecretMoblin said:
I agree, ultimately. But you made the claim that Stripped "rocked the boat". It really didn't.

You want "rocking the boat"? Loretta Lynn had songs pulled from the radio because she dared to talk about issues like birth control and the double standards for men... in songs that were released before Christina was born.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to have a substantial message in a pop product, of course. But there is something wrong when we start positing a false reality, that Christina did more to change society than she really did. That's all.
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I didn't say Christina rocked the boat with Stripped. In fact, when I used that phrase I was talking about Beyonce and how she doesn't acknowledge her gay fans. So I'm not quite sure how that got confused.

What I DID say, and what I still stand by, is that in the context of pop music Christina has contributed more to the feminist movement than "any other pop act of her time." That is a wholly true statement, even if Stripped didn't ultimately change the world and get a holiday named after it.

And it's not a holy war! I'm just sort of tired of the whole stan wars --> she makes serious music I swear ---> stan wars cycle.
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I don't think this is stan warring at all. I think this is one of the rare times in this thread where we've removed intentional fan bias and started discussing the merits of certain artists' musical contribution.

EDIT: Also, you can't just brush aside the near-extreme controversy "Dirrty" caused when it released, especially the video. EVERYONE had an opinion on it. So you can't really just lump it under "calculated move to sell records" when at the end of the day going from the squeaky clean image of her debut era to the Dirrty video was a very real career risk. Also resulted in one of my favorite quotes by her:

When you are bold and open, artistically speaking, in music and in video, a whole bunch of people automatically feel threatened by you, especially in Middle America ... OK, I may have been the naked-ass girl in the video, but if you look at it carefully, I'm also at the forefront. I'm not just some lame chick in a rap video; I'm in the power position, in complete command of everything and everybody around me. To be totally balls-out like that is, for me, the measure of a true artist.

Takes a lot of balls for a 21 year-old.
 
S

SecretMoblin

Member
royalan said:
I didn't say Christina rocked the boat with Stripped. In fact, when I used that phrase I was talking about Beyonce and how she doesn't acknowledge her gay fans. So I'm not quite sure how that got confused.
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I was specifically referring to this:
royalan said:
Well then I suggest you listen to "Stripped" in its entirety. The theme of the entire album is liberation and self-acceptance. And yeah - it's all wrapped under a Pop umbrella, but that doesn't at all detract from the message. Stripped is a brilliant album, not just because the music is good, but because it was one of those rare times an young pop artist in her prime decided to rock the boat by putting out an album with a message. Again, giving Madonna/Janet teas...
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Emphasis mine. But if I took it out of context, then I understand. I don't mean to put words in your mouth.





royalan said:
I don't think this is stan warring at all. I think this is one of the rare times in this thread where we've removed intentional fan bias and started discussing the merits of certain artists' musical contribution.
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I like that! And I don't consider this part of the stan wars silliness. But it's just sort of bizarre to move fluidly from "clocking the lessors" to ascribing some sort of earth-shattering social change to contemporary pop stars. Not a reference to you specifically, but the thread in general.
 
R

royalan

Member
SecretMoblin said:
I was specifically referring to this:


Emphasis mine. But if I took it out of context, then I understand. I don't mean to put words in your mouth.
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Oh, no, you're right. I totes forgot I said that. My bad.

But I still don't see the issue here. I never claimed that Stripped changed the world. I wouldn't say that it had NO influence (It clearly did), but it's not exactly something that can be measured.

My only real point was in regards to Christina's contribution to the feminist and empowerment movements through her music, in relation to her contemporaries. In my opinion, none of her contemporaries really come close, and though she might lack their album sales, Christina is more in line with the essence of Pop icons like Madonna and Janet than any other current pop artist (except Gaga) has right to claim.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I think that when people think of BIG EMPOWERING FEMALE LIB ANTHEMS of the 00s they think of Destiny's Child over Xtina any day of the week.
 
R

royalan

Member
godelsmetric said:
I think that when people think of BIG EMPOWERING FEMALE LIB ANTHEMS of the 00s they think of Destiny's Child over Xtina any day of the week.
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I disagree.

Not to slight Destiny's Child of course, but think that overall Christina made feminism and female empowerment in general a part of who she is as an artist, to the point of not being afraid to be controversial.

Of course, Destiny's Child has the behemoth "Independent Women Pt. 1" under their belt, but I actually think that how Soulscribe described Beyonce as a solo artist is a fitting description for DC3 - "For Women By Women" music.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
royalan said:
I disagree.

Not to slight Destiny's Child of course, but think that overall Christina made feminism and female empowerment in general a part of who she is as an artist, to the point of not being afraid to be controversial.

Of course, Destiny's Child has the behemoth "Independent Women Pt. 1" under their belt, but I actual think that how Soulscribe described Beyonce as a solo artist is a fitting description for DC3 - "For Women By Women" music.
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You really think that straight white males listened to Beautiful and shed a tear?
 
M

Mau ®

Member
Ugh. Once again the Xtincta stan tries to sweep P!nk, Alicia Keys and Avril Lasagna under the rug as if they werent doing empowerment stuff and pro-feminism shit before Stripped ever came out.
 
S

SecretMoblin

Member
can you pay my bills

can you pay my telephone bills

can you pay my automo'bills

then maybe we can chill

I don't think you do

sooooooo

you and me are through

05t3w.gif


still their best song and video
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I don't think anyone should post anything overtly pop-gaf in the thread at all, and at the end we should count whether the number of posts complaining about an impending pop gaf invasion is greater than the number of pop gaf posts in the Bieber thread by the end.
 
R

royalan

Member
inthezone said:
Ugh. Once again the Xtincta stan tries to sweep P!nk, Alicia Keys and Avril Lasagna under the rug as if they werent doing empowerment stuff and pro-feminism shit before Stripped ever came out.
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I'm gonna need you to think your posts through or not #TRYIT.

Alicia Keys' 2 hit songs from her first album:

"Fallin" - a song about being desperately in love with a man who does not reciprocate that affection.

"How Come You Don't Call Me" - self explanatory

Avril Levigne...really?

P!nk - close, but early P!nk's music was more closely focused on her general badassery and dealing with subjects like dysfunctional families. She didn't really become pro-feminist until later in her career, although she definitely is now. I would never say she wasn't.

But, for some reason, you took my statement about Christina contributing more than any other Pop act of her time to mean that I think nobody else contributed anything at all. Frankly, I don't know how anybody could make that leap unless they were merely attempting to provoke.

SecretMoblin said:
can you pay my bills

can you pay my telephone bills

can you pay my automo'bills

then maybe we can chill

I don't think you do

sooooooo

you and me are through

05t3w.gif


still their best song and video
Click to expand...

Original lineup is still the best lineup
Sorry Michelle :(
 
P

Phonomezer

Banned
I'm failing to see any female empowerment eminanting from Christina besides Beautiful; which isn't really feminist song in the first place.
 
Majmun

Majmun

Member
Phonomezer said:
I thought all the singles from DC's last album were great. Cater 2 U being the exception.
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I liked Destiny Fulfilled. But it came out in a period where I wanted to see more Beyonce, and not the group. Bee's Dangerously in Love album killed off DC for me. I didn't want to go back.

But the album was still pretty good. Very mellow and different from their previous stuff. But I'm glad that DC is over. Bee is born to be a leading solo artist.
 
R

royalan

Member
godelsmetric said:
Dismissing in the sense that it wasn't as big for women's lib for that reason.
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I never said that. I just personally think that outside of that big moment (and granted, that song was HUGE), I don't really think that feminism was DC's MO.

Phonomezer said:
I'm failing to see any female empowerment eminanting from Christina besides Beautiful; which isn't really feminist song in the first place.
Click to expand...

How many times do I have to I have to post "Can't Hold Us Down" in this thread? That song from the same album is SPECIFICALLY about female empowerment.
 
D

Delio

Member
godelsmetric said:
I don't think anyone should post anything overtly pop-gaf in the thread at all, and at the end we should count whether the number of posts complaining about an impending pop gaf invasion is greater than the number of pop gaf posts in the Bieber thread by the end.
Click to expand...

I could not resist. Marius had to mention my boys.
 
P

Phonomezer

Banned
royalan said:
How many times do I have to I have to post "Can't Hold Us Down" in this thread? That song from the same album is SPECIFICALLY about female empowerment.
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Can't Hold Us Down lyrics
Songwriters: Prestopino, Greg; Aguilera, Christina; Storch, Scott; Morris, Matt; Wilder, Matthew;

So, what am I not supposed to have an opinion
Should I keep quiet just because I'm a woman
Call me a bitch 'cause I speak what's on my mind
Guess it's easier for you to swallow if I sat and smiled

When a female fires back
Suddenly big talker don't know how to act
So he does what any little boy would do
Making up a few false rumors or two

That for sure is not a man to me
Slandering names for popularity
It's sad you only get your fame through controversy, so sad
But now it's time for me to come and give you more to say

This is for my girls all around the world
Who have come across a man that don't respect your worth
Thinking all women should be seen not heard
So what do we do, girls, shout louder

Lettin' 'em know we're gonna stand our ground
Lift your hands higher and wave 'em proud
Take a deep breath and say it loud
Never can, never will, can't hold us down

Nobody can hold us down
(Hold us down)
Nobody can hold us down
(Hold us down)
Nobody can hold us down
(Hold us down)
Never can, never will

So, what am I not supposed to say, what I'm saying
Are you offended with the message I'm bringing
Call me whatever 'cause your words don't mean a thing
'Cause you ain't even a man enough to handle what I sing

If you look back in history
It's a common double standard of society
The guy gets all the glory, the more he can score
While the girl can do the same and yet you call her a whore

I don't understand why it's okay
The guy can get away with it, the girl gets named
All my ladies come together and make a change
And start a new beginning for us, everybody sing

This is for my girls all around the world
(Round the world)
Who have come across a man that don't respect your worth
(Respect your worth)
Thinking all women should be seen not heard
So what do we do, girls, shout louder

Lettin' 'em know we're gonna stand our ground
So lift your hands higher and wave 'em proud
Take a deep breath and say it loud
Never can, never will, can't hold us down

Check it
Here's something I just can't understand
If a guy have three girls then he's the man
He can even give us some head and sex her raw
If the girl do the same, then she's a whore

But the table's about to turn
I'll bet my fame on it
Cats take my ideas and put they name on it
It's aight though, you can't hold me down
I got to keep on moving

To all my girls with a man who be trying to mack
Do it right back to him and let that be that
You need to let him know that his game is whack
And Lil' Kim and Christina Aguilera got your back

You're just a little boy
Think you're so cute so coy
You must talk so big
To make up for smaller things

Said you're just a little boy
All you do is annoy
You must talk so big
To make up for smaller things

This is for my girls
This is for my girls all around the world
Who have come across a man that don't respect your worth
(Respect your worth)
Thinking all women should be seen not heard
So what do we do, girls, shout louder
(Shout louder)

Lettin' 'em know we're gonna stand our ground
(Stand our ground)
So lift your hands higher and wave 'em proud
Take a deep breath and say it loud
Never can, never will, can't hold us down

This is for my girls all around the world
(For my girls)
Who have come across a man that don't respect your worth
(Around the world)
Thinking all women should be seen not heard
So what do we do girls, shout louder

Lettin' 'em know we're gonna stand our ground
So lift your hands higher and wave 'em proud
Take a deep breath and say it loud
Never can, never will, can't hold us down

Spread the word
Can't hold us down
Yeah, we here, we back again
Yeah, Lil' Kim and Christina Aguilera, yeah
Can't hold us down
Click to expand...

Just comes across as corny tbh.
 
Majmun

Majmun

Member
Phonomezer said:
Just comes across as corny tbh.
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Yep, Khia's song sounds more classy and feminist IMO

All you ladies pop your pussy like this
Shake your body, don't stop, don't miss
All you ladies pop your pussy like this
Shake your body, don't stop, don't miss
Just do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now
Lick it good suck this pussy, just like you should
Right now, Lick it good
suck this pussy just like you should
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack,

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

First you gotta put your neck into it
Ah, don't stop, just do, do it
Then you roll your tongue, from the back up to the front
Then ya get it off, keep me up on ya
Make sure I keep my eyes on ya
All over the club and stuff
Real player show me so much love
The best love comes slow and long
Knows how to stay down on ya
All night 'till the crack of dawn
Real good, keep it comin' strong
Through the night, making so much love
In dead sleep when the sun comes up

So, lick it now, lick it good
suck this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
suck this pussy just like you should
[Chorus]
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

You might roll dutch, you might have G's
But so what player, get on your knees
A girl like me moans and screams
Thug misses know what I mean
At the club so fresh, so clean
Girls hatin' fellas watchin' me
Standin' out in the line, so clean
With a unit on my face, so mean
I gotta pick which fella I need
To take me out, spend his money on me
Try me I'll make you see
No other girl got nothin' me

So, lick it now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack

So, lick it now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should
Right now, lick it good
Suck this pussy just like you should

My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
My Neck, my back
Lick my pussy and my crack
Click to expand...
 
M

Mau ®

Member
Not to mention CHUD failed to make much impact. So I doubt it was picked up as a hymn for feminism.

The only single from Stripped that was a hit in every sense was Beautiful. Dirrty was big in Europe as well but failed in its home market.
 
R

royalan

Member
Second said:
Don't think we can find Xtina on there either.

iK1JgGqiWqHhn.gif
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But you will soon when she's actually promoting music.


botty said:
Dirrty was sabotaged because it was too provocative... and very innovative imo.
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What happened to Dirrty is so strange, because it was such a popular song. It got WORN OUT on LA urban radio, and even years later when I moved to Pittsburgh for school, very few songs got people on the dance floor the same way Dirrty did. So when I started getting more into music I was shocked to learn that it didn't chart as well as it seemed to.
 
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