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The GAF POP |OT| of Diversity, Hidden Talent, and Stan Wars

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K

Koodo

Banned
inthezone said:
Part of Me is shit
RbAwN.gif
Click to expand...
I remember liking the song for a couple of days and then, suddenly, it stopped being pleasant.

And then I saw the video.

iSYAOY1qwSiVI.gif
 
P

Phonomezer

Banned
Rocket Punch said:
Love Spent (accoustic version) is majestic indeed. is there a legal way to obtain it?
Click to expand...

WHAT AM I READING!? It's on the Deluxe Edition. I'm going to pretend you have it.

It is indeed life-giving.

Crumpet Trumpet said:
(who is billie piper?)
Click to expand...

British pop singer who debuted at 15 or 16 in the late 90's, she was kind of like Britney.

She was on Dr. Who for a while and was the lead in Secret Diary of a Call Girl.

Because We Want To

Girlfriend

Honey To The Bee

Day and Night

Something Deep Inside

She probably has other songs but I honestly WOULDN'T KNOW.
 
K

Koodo

Banned
Phonomezer said:
WHAT AM I READING!? It's on the Deluxe Edition. I'm going to pretend you have it.

It is indeed life-giving.
Click to expand...
I don't know what questionable Deluxe version you acquired, but it isn't on my physical copy.

And I'm in Canada, the only country where this album hasn't plummeted out of the charts.


Edit: I see it was pre-order only. How insulting.
 
M

Mumei

Member
Noriega said:
I was told to stop by here.

Am I going to die for having this avatar?
Click to expand...

Welcome.

And Koodoo, dear, please tell me who gave you that gif. I would like to kill them.

royalan said:
I agree with everything yo said except the bolded. I actually think poor breath support is part of the reason Leona's lows are so weak (she still falls off notes a LOT), and why her highs can get so shrill (think nervous driver slamming on the accelerator instead of easing on it).

Christina, however, rarely falls off her low notes. And watch that performance of Burlesque I linked too. You can't do choreography like that and still belt that song's finale with poor breath support. It's impossible. That's Broadway-caliber.

We've seen from X-Factor what a once-around the stage does to Leona.

So, i'd insist that Xtina has better breath support and a better lower register because of it, but other than that I agree with you.
Click to expand...

I plan on winning through attrition!!

I watched that performance, and I'm not hearing what you're hearing. Or perhaps reversing that formulation might be more accurate. One of Christina's fundamental problems is her breath support; it is a source of her pitch problems (which typically involve going flat), because as you're well aware, when you sing notes without breath supporting them, you lose the overtones and it will inevitably cause you to go flat. So I think that her live pitch problems are often symptomatic of a problem of poor breath management. A good example of what I'm talking about when I refer to breath management for the uninitiated still following this (since it has such audible breathing due to being a rehearsal) is this rehearsal performance of Vanishing. You can hear Mariah take an audible breath at the point I linked, and then again at 3:48, 3:54, 4:02, and 4:10, each time after she sings a line. If she wasn't taking a breath at the end of a line, on the next line she'd be singing without any breath support and would almost certainly sing the line flat. Also, my favorite part. Chastised. <3

And I have read about Christina's sense of pitch actually being quite good. I remember a story about the recording of Beautiful where she was very sensitive to the fact that it wasn't a "perfect" performance, so I think it isn't an issue of her having pitch issues per se. Again, I think it is the fact that she doesn't have the best breath management and so she tends to try to do more than she's capable of on a single breath and ends up going flat on lines. For instance, doesn't she sound flat to you here? Though granted, I was talking to krypt about it, and he thought that it might actually be an issue of her not being able to hear herself because she starts off flat, so he thinks her head might just be in a different key. So perhaps I'm wrong about that specific example, though as you know it certainly isn't the only instance of her singing flat on an entire line.

On the subject of lows, it is true that Leona does not have a strong lower register, but I think that's a partially a function of her gender generally and her vocal type in particular and not issues with her breath support. Leona's not the only female singer out there who has trouble with her lower register. Even the (non-contralto / exceptions to the rule) female singers who get down to B2 or lower tend to start sounding forced and breathless on their bottom notes by the middle of the third octave. So while her lower register is mediocre, but it certainly is not egregiously bad relatively to the standards most other women, including Christina, are presenting. Leona's uncomfortable lows sound breathier and weaker than Christina's uncomfortable and breathy lows, but they both sound uncomfortable and breathy on those lows, and the range in which that is the case is fairly similar. On that point, I think you overestimate Christina's lower register; while she is capable of getting fairly low, she does not get significantly lower than Leona (Bb2 vs C3) and I think that at least when I listen to range compilations of them, their lower registers start sounding full around the same point (E3 for Christina, F3 for Leona), and I don't think either one of them really sound comfortable until even higher than that.

And you might well be right that Christina is capable of more than Leona is in their respective comfortable ranges. I don't know for sure. But I think it's also difficult to deny the fact that Christina's comfort range - which I define (and you might be defining it differently, making this entirely moot) as the range she can comfortably hit notes and sustain them with vibrato, maintain support (as opposed to "breathed" lows *coughCelineC3D3Eb3etccough*) on low notes and don't lose their tonal quality, and belted highs that they are capable of hitting without obvious signs of strain - is not particularly big. For instance, I've seen this performance referenced in one of those stan-y youtube videos as a great example of her comfort range, and I have to agree, at least as far as her modal range goes. She sounds gorgeous in this range, and the performance is only marred, unsurprisingly, by her two belted "No matter what they say" parts, where the strain on the bolded (a D5 and an A4) are palpable. But that modal range that she sounds gorgeous in is less than an octave; when you add in her falsetto, I think in total she has a little over two to two-and-a-half octaves of comfortable range. By contrast, I think that Leona has closer to (but not quite) two octaves in her comfortable range (~1.75), and around two and a half octaves including head voice / falsetto.

So while they have a similar overall comfort range, I think that Leona's comfort range consists of significantly more modal range and that even if Christina is capable of more within her relatively limited modal comfort range, I think that Leona simply has a larger base to work with. This doesn't have to be true, and if you ask me Christina has a better base instrument than Leona does. But this has never really been about arguing that Christina doesn't have the equipment; just that she doesn't use it well. I think that Christina potentially has a solid two octaves of modal range and additional range in falsetto.

I think you are right that Leona's probably on the lower end of the singers I listed*, but I do not think that Christina should be on there. The area she happens to be better at - base talent - is something that I happened to be A) de-emphasizing and B) something that her technique is bad enough to a degree to more than mitigate her advantage in natural gifts. I think that while Leona ranges from mediocre to great with various things, Christina is ranging from godawful to great, and with a lot more things in the godawful category than anyone with as much talent and (I assume) easy access to vocal coaches as Christina has any right to.

* I expect to hear from Leona telling me how awful I am shortly.
 
K

Kyon

Banned
Phonomezer said:
You'd best get back to checking then, it's only a matter of time before that 4 minute fluff-fest Superstar enters your subconscious.

I'm your biggest faaaaaan it's truuuue *.*



Yeah, that one. I haven't been in there since E3.
Click to expand...

still there lol im always on so is a majority of Pop Gaf
 
R

royalan

Member
Mumei said:
This doesn't have to be true, and if you ask me Christina has a better base instrument than Leona does.
Click to expand...

Thank you, and goodnight. :)


Juuust kidding.


Anyway, you know from past conversations that I agree with a lot of your criticisms of Christina's technique. And I don't fault your list. It is your list, after all.

I think the one area where we fundamentally disagree is application. In any list of great pop singers I would compile, that would matter a great deal, while that doesn't matter to you as much (and fairly so). And application is the exact area where Christina Aguilera shines brightest. How she uses her instrument, all the things she can do with it. Her sheer versatility in unparalleled by all but a few singers in the industry right now. It's what gives her the edge over other singers who have admittedly impressive ranges, but sorely lack in versatility and musicality. Singers like Kelly Clarkson and Leona Lewis.

And the thing that I insist on most is that it does take technique to be as versatile a singer as Christina is. Having a good base instrument would only take you so far. In fact, relying solely on natural gift is how you get boring singers like Kelly Clarkson (sorry, Crumpet). To be able to go from singing something like "I Love You Porgy" to "Fighter" to "I Am" and every genre in between takes good technique, a complete understanding of your voice, and a strong sense of musicality that I don't think Christina gets nearly enough credit for just because her technique with her upper register, admittedly, needs a little work.

I mean, heck, as obnoxiously over-the-top as this melismatic moment is, I also can't think of a singer other than Mariah (and maybe Beyonce) who could imitate what Christina does there, even jokingly.

And as a singer in a chorus that recently started incorporating (basic) choreography into our numbers, and having seen veteran, classically-trained singers get thrown off by having to add a simple two-step to a number, I can't look at Christina practically flying across that Dancing With The Stars stage and still hitting those last series of runs perfectly and say that there's no good technique there. There's great technique there.

Just not perfect technique.

Which, to be fair, Christina acknowledged. Which is why she's been working with famed vocal coach Seth Riggs since last year:

Gooday Christina Fan

Yes i do confirm that Christina is currently one of my clients. We are working on her clarity, methods of projections, resonance and incorporating my "speech level singing technique" into her overall technique, which I am sure will lead to the expansion of her overall range.

Thank you
Seth
Click to expand...
http://popoverdose.com/showthread.php?t=21787#axzz1rKanBTYF
 
K

Koodo

Banned
I just realized the last two pages have been dedicated to artists whom are:

(1) in recording limbo
(2) judging a reality show
(3) experiencing historic weekly drops


Let me febreze the scent of failure with this picture:

YgSLN.jpg


cAG2b.gif
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Koodo said:
I just realized the last two pages have been dedicated to artists whom are:

(1) in recording limbo
(2) judging a reality show
(3) experiencing historic weekly drops


Let me febreze the scent of failure with this picture:

YgSLN.jpg


cAG2b.gif
Click to expand...

It's all downhill from here. See: Alanis Morissette, Usher, etc
 
K

Koodo

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
It's all downhill from here. See: Alanis Morissette, Usher, etc
Click to expand...
Actually, the only one giving me doom teas is Norah Jones. Her debut album did similar feats and the poor girl has barely seen the Bubbling Under ever since.

ADELE just needs to capitalize on the current hype and release another album soon to solidify her presence in this industry.


... assuming 21 stops selling.
Z5yAq.gif
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Oh I'm sure her next album will sell well, but it'll suffer the inevitable fate of being compared to 21, and the demand/expectation of another Rolling In The Deep. Artists and groups rarely match their hugest hits

Plus she said she won't be releasing anything anytime soon right? First sign of danger :(
 
C

Crumpet Trumpet

Banned
royalan said:
Thank you, and goodnight. :)


Juuust kidding.


Anyway, you know from past conversations that I agree with a lot of your criticisms of Christina's technique. And I don't fault your list. It is your list, after all.

I think the one area where we fundamentally disagree is application. In any list of great pop singers I would compile, that would matter a great deal, while that doesn't matter to you as much (and fairly so). And application is the exact area where Christina Aguilera shines brightest. How she uses her instrument, all the things she can do with it. Her sheer versatility in unparalleled by all but a few singers in the industry right now. It's what gives her the edge over other singers who have admittedly impressive ranges, but sorely lack in versatility and musicality. Singers like Kelly Clarkson and Leona Lewis.

And the thing that I insist on most is that it does take technique to be as versatile a singer as Christina is. Having a good base instrument would only take you so far. In fact, relying solely on natural gift is how you get boring singers like Kelly Clarkson (sorry, Crumpet). To be able to go from singing something like "I Love You Porgy" to "Fighter" to "I Am" and every genre in between takes good technique, a complete understanding of your voice, and a strong sense of musicality that I don't think Christina gets nearly enough credit for just because her technique with her upper register, admittedly, needs a little work.

I mean, heck, as obnoxiously over-the-top as this melismatic moment is, I also can't think of a singer other than Mariah (and maybe Beyonce) who could imitate what Christina does there, even jokingly.

And as a singer in a chorus that recently started incorporating (basic) choreography into our numbers, and having seen veteran, classically-trained singers get thrown off by having to add a simple two-step to a number, I can't look at Christina practically flying across that Dancing With The Stars stage and still hitting those last series of runs perfectly and say that there's no good technique there. There's great technique there.

Just not perfect technique.

Which, to be fair, Christina acknowledged. Which is why she's been working with famed vocal coach Seth Riggs since last year:


http://popoverdose.com/showthread.php?t=21787#axzz1rKanBTYF
Click to expand...

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms when it comes to Kelly; like Mumei said, her lower register isn't the greatest and she has a tendency to be shouty, especially during her Breakaway heyday. I allowed you to call her creatively bankrupt and hypocritical (???), but to claim she's not versatile is the most false statement I've heard in this thread. And there are Rihanna stans in here.

Look at what she serves in addition to her catalog of Pop/Rock classics:
Classical
Soul
Classic Rock
Modern Rock
Blues
Country
Big Band
 Folksy/Gospel/Soul/Whatever mix of genres this is
Country Fried Rock


There are even receipts that her own music is versatile- she's the only artist in the history of music to land #1s in Pop, Adult Contemporary, Hot AC, Dance, Country, and the Hot 100. I could go on but I get the feeling that nothing would be convincing enough.



And calling her a boring singer is obviously subjective, but here's some spilled tea anyway:

Miss Independent @ AOL
Walk Away @ CD USA
Since U Been Gone @ VMAS (this may not be her most vocally impressive performance, but it sure as hell ain't boring)















.....Oh, and she can sing the National Anthem.
 
K

Koodo

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
Oh I'm sure her next album will sell well, but it'll suffer the inevitable fate of being compared to 21, and the demand/expectation of another Rolling In The Deep. Artists and groups rarely match their hugest hits

Plus she said she won't be releasing anything anytime soon right? First sign of danger :(
Click to expand...
She changed her mind right after the Grammys, posting on her blog:

"I&#8217;ve a few days off now, and then it&#8217;s the Brit Awards here at home and then I&#8217;m straight into the studio. BOYYAHH! 5 years? More like 5 days!"

I agree the biggest mistake she could do is trying to replicate 21 and, especially, Rolling In The Deep. Fortunately, she's already stated her next album won't be depressing and melancholic (two in a row is more than enough). Hopefully her music goes in a slightly different direction too.


Wow maybe she'll sell as much as Like A Virgin.

Doubt she could come around a second time to outsell True Blue.
Click to expand...
Maybe? It has already been passed, and True Blue is 4 million copies away. Expect a press release in June or July.

ADELE has set her sight on the jugular though. By year's end.
 
R

Rocket Punch

Member
a7c.jpg


That's the worst shade I'll throw at Adele. She has a lovely voice and while she's not my cup of tea I appreciate and respect her abilities as a musician. Better Adele than a common Wannabe Copycat.

Besides, Mami likes her.
 
K

Koodo

Banned
Phonomezer said:
I doubt 21 will cross the 30 million line.

When was the last Like A Virgin certification? 1991?
Click to expand...
Stabilizing at +200k copies sold worldwide per week, a fourth single that is rising up the charts, and potential promotional performances in the nearby future?

30 million and beyond is a lock.


Rocket Punch said:
moregrammysthanmdnasold.jpg

That's the worst shade I'll throw at Adelle.
Click to expand...
It's ADELE, with one L. Don't disappoint your madre.

2Z8DG.gif




















































qRgCw.png
 
M

Mumei

Member
royalan said:
Thank you, and goodnight. :)


Juuust kidding.
Click to expand...

I half-expected you to actually do that!

I think the one area where we fundamentally disagree is application. In any list of great pop singers I would compile, that would matter a great deal, while that doesn't matter to you as much (and fairly so). And application is the exact area where Christina Aguilera shines brightest. How she uses her instrument, all the things she can do with it. Her sheer versatility in unparalleled by all but a few singers in the industry right now. It's what gives her the edge over other singers who have admittedly impressive ranges, but sorely lack in versatility and musicality. Singers like Kelly Clarkson and Leona Lewis.

And the thing that I insist on most is that it does take technique to be as versatile a singer as Christina is. Having a good base instrument would only take you so far. In fact, relying solely on natural gift is how you get boring singers like Kelly Clarkson (sorry, Crumpet). To be able to go from singing something like "I Love You Porgy" to "Fighter" to "I Am" and every genre in between takes good technique, a complete understanding of your voice, and a strong sense of musicality that I don't think Christina gets nearly enough credit for just because her technique with her upper register, admittedly, needs a little work.
Click to expand...

I think we may have a difference of opinion as to what "application" means. I think that at the most fundamental level of application - her technique - she has issues that need quite a bit of work, not a little. And while I do agree with you that versatility is a technical skill, the problem is that you can't start talking about her application of her instrument and how great her application is while ignoring her problems with the fundamentals.

That said, yes, it does take technique to be as versatile as Christina is, particularly in the way she is versatile. When she sings in different genres, her singing itself changes. This might sound axiomatic, but it is indeed different from singers like Kelly Clarkson, who is actually a very versatile singer in a different way; she just happens to be one of those very lucky singers (Elvis is another good example) whose voices tend to suit a large number of genres without making extreme (though there's obviously some) technical changes to their singing style when shifting to a different genre. Personally I think it is a gift that very few singers have.

I mean, heck, as obnoxiously over-the-top as this melismatic moment is, I also can't think of a singer other than Mariah (and maybe Beyonce) who could imitate what Christina does there, even jokingly.
Click to expand...

Mariah could, and Beyonce could as well. I am unsure about other singers (well, female; I think that Adam Lambert could as well, and he's basically the equivalent of a male Patti Labelle with Christina's taste, but better technique), though that honestly doesn't impress me very much.

I'm going to have trouble explaining this, since I can't talk about it in a technical way, but I feel like the examples of Beyonce doing runs in that video I linked to are much more impressive because they are so crisp and well-defined. I'm not really impressed by Christina when she does her melismatic diarrhea routine. Do you remember that song that Cynosure linked to awhile back where she did that slow ululating thing on phrases that started "And we~e~e"? Those, even though they weren't perfect, I found more impressive.

That might just be more reflective of my taste, but hopefully I'm making sense.

And as a singer in a chorus that recently started incorporating (basic) choreography into our numbers, and having seen veteran, classically-trained singers get thrown off by having to add a simple two-step to a number, I can't look at Christina practically flying across that Dancing With The Stars stage and still hitting those last series of runs perfectly and say that there's no good technique there. There's great technique there.

Just not perfect technique.
Click to expand...

You know I'm not a singer, so I wouldn't know much about this (though it does make intuitive sense, of course), but great technique would be this.

I think that the ability to walk around on stage and sing, while probably a big change for classically trained singers, ought to be second-nature for a pop singer (at least the ones who trade on their vocal ability). Christina sounded like she was barely keeping up with the song, and honestly when I was watching I didn't think the routine seemed that intense, and there seemed to be rather large breaks (15+ seconds, anyway), where she wasn't doing any singing whatsoever and had an opportunity to catch her breath.

Which, to be fair, Christina acknowledged. Which is why she's been working with famed vocal coach Seth Riggs since last year:

http://popoverdose.com/showthread.php?t=21787#axzz1rKanBTYF
Click to expand...

'Tis good news, indeed.

There was actually a point on The Voice (I think after the battle between the two black men who sang at the end of the show) where she sang a high heady mixed note that sounded effortless. It wasn't belted, but the important part is that it sounded like it could be the foundation for something good. I remember it because there was a video mentioning it which said it was an F#5.

I didn't really take note of it when I was watching the episode, but in retrospect it was heartening.

Unless one happened to be a Britney stan who wants her to sound horrible. Not that I'd know anyone like that.
 
C

Crumpet Trumpet

Banned
The most influential woman in Pop Music has been crowned by
AOL



tumblr_m22p9sMOaa1rs6uvwo1_500.jpg





The most hilarious part, aside from the winner, is Fergie beating Beyonce and Madonna........lord.
 
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