Few franchises succeed where Star Trek did in II and III in killing and resurrecting a character, because they usually don't establish high enough stakes for it. Leaving Spock dead after II would have been excellent, but his return in III and IV feels earned.
The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
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Few franchises succeed where Star Trek did in II and III in killing and resurrecting a character, because they usually don't establish high enough stakes for it. Leaving Spock dead after II would have been excellent, but his return in III and IV feels earned.
Henchmen21
Banned
That's mostly through III though. People complain about III but all the stuff Kirk goes through to get Spock back feels worth it i.e. Losing the Enterprise, his son etc. You need III to get to IV.
Yeah, that's why IV is the perfect movie for that point in the franchise. It does such a great job with Spock, and his relationship with Kirk.
By the way, there was one thing that surprised me a bit in Wrath of Khan, tonight. Shatner was actually pretty damn good in it. The "Khan!" histrionics are what everyone remembers, but Shatner had some great quiet moments, too. Kudos to him -- and to Nicholas Meyer for getting that performance out of him.
Henchmen21
Banned
Watch the extra's. Meyer states that the only way he could get Shatner to tone it down was to keep shooting certain scenes over and over again till Shatner got bored with the lines.
Ha! Well, then extra kudos to Meyer.
lastplayed
Member
I still think Shatner's best moment was reacting to David's death.
Yeah. It's still SHATNERIAN! in ways, but the sort of defeated look he has when he collapses and the hollow delivery of the lines is pretty great.
To give credit where credit is due, that entire sequence of the Klingon attack through the destruction of the Enterprise is one of the best parts of Trek, period. I love the decision to not use any music when David fights the Klingon.
Only thing that 100% could have made TSFS better would have been Kirstie Alley.
ThLunarian
Member
Sheesh. I took someone's advice and started watching Enterprise from the Season 2 finale, and Season 3 was great.
The finale's cliffhanger and the Season 4 premiere are a complete mess, though. The time-traveling space nazis are bad enough, but what's really offensive are the lengths they go to to create this travesty of an explanation for it all. Convoluted doesn't even begin to describe it. Who in the world thought this was a good idea?
The finale's cliffhanger and the Season 4 premiere are a complete mess, though. The time-traveling space nazis are bad enough, but what's really offensive are the lengths they go to to create this travesty of an explanation for it all. Convoluted doesn't even begin to describe it. Who in the world thought this was a good idea?
The Librarian
Banned
Your avatar never fails to creep me out.
ThLunarian
Member
::steps into character:: I assure you, my dear, that the feeling is NOT mutual. *Garak stare*
The Librarian
Banned
Garak in a Starfleet uniform is creepy!!!!
firehawk12
Subete no aware
It was Braga's fault for having a shitty cliffhanger and leaving a pile of dung for Coto to work with.
But it was Coto's fault for playing it straight and trying to actually make space lizard nazis work in any meaningful way.
ThLunarian
Member
Coto was around for the entire season 3. I've noticed during the opening credits. With that in mind, that finale makes absolutely zero sense.
Unless Braga was still pulling strings behind the scenes or something.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
S3 was basically the last season that Berman and Braga were in charge. Coto was there, but B&B wrote the finale for S3.
And it's your standard shitty B&B cliffhanger finale that makes no sense. But I almost feel like it was a "fuck you" because they probably knew that they were going to be forced to step back and let Coto do S4 by that time because of how stupid they made it.
(The problem with cliffhangers is that after Best of Both Worlds, every Star Trek writer thought that the only way to end a season was with some pointlessly shocking event. But no one them realized that they got worse and worse as each season and series progressed. Even DS9 wasn't free of this trope
).
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Spock's eulogy, David's death, and "Let them die" were moments that any actor should be proud of. The loss, the pain, and the rage of Kirk were captured perfectly.
lastplayed
Member
(The problem with cliffhangers is that after Best of Both Worlds, every Star Trek writer thought that the only way to end a season was with some pointlessly shocking event. But no one them realized that they got worse and worse as each season and series progressed. Even DS9 wasn't free of this trope
DS9's S3 cliffhanger wasn't too bad.
The "we are everywhere" line was pretty chilling.
ThLunarian
Member
So a friend of mine is watching TNG for the first time, and tonight I showed her Best of Both Worlds.
I was dismayed to find that the acting in it was terrible and the plot requires an inordinate amount of suspension of disbelief.
None of the crew reacts in the slightest when Geordi and Data inform them that 11 crew members were killed when they had to evacuate engineering during the first encounter. This is including the captain, who normally has some of the best emotional range of the entire crew.
No one has ANY REACTION AT ALL, emotional or otherwise, when Picard gets kidnapped, nor when they find out that he's become a Borg. They might as well all be androids.
Then there's the fact that they showed the devastation that a Borg cube can cause to an entire fleet of starships, and yet when the Enterprise engages them one on one, every single time they just durdle around and do a whole bunch of nothing for long stretches of time when they SHOULD be trying to destroy the ship.
And why in the name of hell was Doctor Crusher chosen to go on that away mission to the Borg vessel? She had absolutely NO REASON to tag along. It's not like her medical expertise was required; it was purely a rescue/extraction mission. I'm guessing it was because the character otherwise had nothing to do in Part 1, but it was still poorly done.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but in this respect Enterprise is almost an entire order of magnitude better than TNG. Granted, Enterprise has the most useless character in the entire continuity, but at least most of the rest of them get chances to shine, and actually REACT to things.
Edit: And that old man admiral that shows up every now and then in the episode? He might as well be wearing a badge that says "Not a single fuck was given." Every single time he's on the screen, he's carefree and lackadaisical. This is including during the scene where he's transmitting from a ship that's under heavy fire from the Borg as their entire fleet is getting annihilated.
I was dismayed to find that the acting in it was terrible and the plot requires an inordinate amount of suspension of disbelief.
None of the crew reacts in the slightest when Geordi and Data inform them that 11 crew members were killed when they had to evacuate engineering during the first encounter. This is including the captain, who normally has some of the best emotional range of the entire crew.
No one has ANY REACTION AT ALL, emotional or otherwise, when Picard gets kidnapped, nor when they find out that he's become a Borg. They might as well all be androids.
Then there's the fact that they showed the devastation that a Borg cube can cause to an entire fleet of starships, and yet when the Enterprise engages them one on one, every single time they just durdle around and do a whole bunch of nothing for long stretches of time when they SHOULD be trying to destroy the ship.
And why in the name of hell was Doctor Crusher chosen to go on that away mission to the Borg vessel? She had absolutely NO REASON to tag along. It's not like her medical expertise was required; it was purely a rescue/extraction mission. I'm guessing it was because the character otherwise had nothing to do in Part 1, but it was still poorly done.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but in this respect Enterprise is almost an entire order of magnitude better than TNG. Granted, Enterprise has the most useless character in the entire continuity, but at least most of the rest of them get chances to shine, and actually REACT to things.
Edit: And that old man admiral that shows up every now and then in the episode? He might as well be wearing a badge that says "Not a single fuck was given." Every single time he's on the screen, he's carefree and lackadaisical. This is including during the scene where he's transmitting from a ship that's under heavy fire from the Borg as their entire fleet is getting annihilated.
Felix Lighter
Member
I've been watching the DS9 series over the last few months and there's something I've noticed, Miles O'Brien goes through some rough shit, like real emotionally and mentally damaging stuff. He's one hell of a resilient character.
Edit: I'm not site how spoilers are handled in this thread so I'll just take the safe route.
Separated from his family over and over again. His pregnant wife is almost killed in an accident and his unborn baby is transferred into the body of a superior officer on the station. He lives in a mental prison for 20 years and has to face the fact that he murdered his friend. His wife is possessed and he witnesses her almost committing suicide. He befriends a criminal while undercover that he's forced to betray and ultimately knows that his inevitable death will be the direct result of that betrayal. He's faced with his daughter's possible death, then faced with living with the fact that she is suddenly 10 years older and a feral human and then faced with the fact that he may never see her again. That's what I remember off the top of my head.
Edit: I'm not site how spoilers are handled in this thread so I'll just take the safe route.
The Librarian
Banned
I always loved the seasonal "Let's fuck with O'Brien" episodes.
Felix Lighter
Member
I guess the family aspect makes him an easy target.
Henchmen21
Banned
That was only fan rumor. There's never been official word on it.
So I'm watching TNG for the first time - I've seen a bunch of TOS, a few of the TOS films and the two reboot movies, and needed something to marathon through so I thought "Hey, as a sci-fi fan it's probably about time I watch more Trek!" Right now I'm about halfway through the first season, it's been a little rough so far but since I understand that show gets much better later on I'm sticking with it. Premises are hit and miss so far (more miss than hit), as are most of the characters (Data and Picard are great, Tasha and Wesley are not). I figured I'd come in here and say hi, maybe post my impressions every once in a while.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Maybe it was nostalgia goggles, but I thought the two episodes were amazing when I watched them in the theatre. I mean, hell, the Riker/Shelby stuff was a great set up to Picard being taken by the Borg.
The DS9 ones were definitely more restrained. Still, the fact that they wrote cliffhangers for the sake of having them - they never had any idea how they would be resolved until production started for the next season - sort of shows how much they cared about the cliffhanger in the first place.
It was a gimmick to try to get people to tune in... and maybe back then it worked, but obviously, it's just full of diminishing returns now to the point that cliffhangers are almost actively despised in television.
(The Killing S1... ugh)
Mr. Luchador
Member
I remember my best friend's Dad saying something similar when we watched First Contact for the first time at his house!
He also has one of the unluckiest shoulders in history (Might be some spoilers for later DS9, so watch with caution):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNyut2fgf5w
The fact that the Borg existed centuries earlier (First Contact) sort of blew a hole in that theory. Then again, you could say the fact they didn't know anything of humanity until Q popped up would also be a strike against that.*
*Then again, the "Enterprise" episode "Regeneration" made it so it was the 24th century Borg trapped in the 22nd century who warned the Borg to start coming from the Delta Quadrant. So I guess it kind of ameliorates Q's intentions--he really was trying to see if the Federation was ready for what was coming.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
This is why time travel is stupid. lol
I don't think it was ever stated whether or not the Borg knew of humanity in Q Who. The events of that episode obviously accelerated their expansion towards the Alpha quadrant, but afaik they were on their way there anyways. That's why Q was warning them.
Keep in mind there were colonies being destroyed on the edge of federation space for a while before that episode (Conspiracy/The Neutral Zone). Without the writer's strike that plot would have culminated in the first appearance of the (different) Borg.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Season 3 of Enterprise is great, if somewhat dark and a bit depressing. I wonder if they wish they had never bothered with Season 2, as that's a real killer.
The greatest part of season 3 is the continuity too. I mean Enterprise gets the shit kicked out of it and the next episode things aren't magically better. By the time they make solid progress the ship has hull ruptures all over the place and is practically limping along.
It did Voyager better than Voyager could have ever hoped too
Mr. Luchador
Member
Yes! That's what I liked the most about Season 1 of Enterprise too, they tried their best to keep things carrying over from what episode-to-episode. Reoccuring characters, little mentions of previous episode events, etc.
That didn't happen in Season 2 at all, not until the last 2 episodes, which killed me.
Jake Tower
Banned
What were they supposed to do? Emo the fuck out?
Welcome to my "disregard this poster's opinion on everything" list.
Every admiral depicted in TNG is a dickhead. It was a meme on the order of the Picard Maneuver.
I thought it was said that the Voyager probe stumbled upon some random anomaly in space that took it someplace extremely distant, and that it crash landed on a planet of "machine life" that mistook it for one of it's kind, and they were impressed by it's mission of "learn everything, report back home" so they gave V'ger aid and equipped it with the tools to do just that.
That's very different from the Borg, who appear to be a group of humanoid aliens from another quadrant of the galaxy who embraced technological self-improvement and decided to unify themselves in a hive-mind, and found that the collective was so appealing that they wanted more of it, even if that meant forcing themselves on others.
The only real common thread between the two is "advanced technology", which is nothing new in sci-fi (and the machine planet appears to have been much more advanced than the Borg), and limitless knowledge, which was V'ger's mission, not anything from the machine planet, and which the Borg seemed to think they would get if they only added a few more humanoid brains to their collective.
I am watching through DS9 for the first time at the moment and was surprised at how heavily O'Brien is featured in the show. I have seen all of TNG and he rarely was much of a focus there. I have just gotten up to the start of season five now and am really enjoying the show more since Worf's arrival in season 4.
Aside from the occasional episodes focusing on Sisko's son, and the time travel/mirror universe episodes I am really enjoying the show a lot. The episode featuring Lwaxana Troi having some fever that made everyone horny was pretty rough as well, though mostly for the disturbing kissing scenes between Kira and Julian. They just sort of open their mouths and mash their faces together it is unsettling to watch.
I made the mistake of watching some of the special features on the DVD for season 4 so I have already had Worf and Dax's relationship spoiled for me but I am still looking forward to seeing how it plays out all the same.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Did they retcon Tuvok in Generations when they realised the actor had played 2 characters?
The actors playing Major Kira and Dr Bashir really enjoyed that part. There's a reason why Kira has a pregnancy storyline coming up.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Hahaha.
I guess so. It''s just I'd heard people trying to tie the two together, which was an idea I found kind of interesting.
I did wonder if that was the case (that the actress was really pregnant, not that she had hooked up with Bashir in real life) when they came up with that Keiko/Kira pregnancy storyline.
Yup, Voyager 6 crashed on Cybertron and the robots took the mission statement literally, so they built a huge expanse of machinery and space faring equipment around V'Ger and, well there you go.
Tuvok served on the Excelsior with Sulu so its entirely possible its Tuvok on the Enterprise B but they have never bothered of officially say so I dont think
Felix Lighter
Member
Jake Sisko end's up being a pretty good character, I think, at least where I'm at, the beginning of season 7. Rare for a minor child actor that grows up over the course of their show.
Also, I'm currently watching Take Me Out to the Holo-Suite, which is a goofy holo deck episode but Worf is hilarious in this one.
Jake Tower
Banned
Star Trek reuses actors often
lastplayed
Member
Even in the same episode.
I read that as "This here Vulcan female was also Worf's Klingon girlfriend, and this here female Q was also Brent Spiner."
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