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[snaffles]

Just finished watching through The Undiscovered Country this morning. What an awesome way to end the run of films. Great culmination of all the events beginning with Wrath of Khan. Probably a toss up for me between Undiscovered Country or Voyage Home for my favourite movie of the six. Voyage Home completely nailed the humour for me, I don't think I have ever laughed so much while watching Star Trek.

Did the people who make the Dead Space games ever cite The Undiscovered Country as an inspiration for their weapon design? That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the laser tools they used for mining on that ice planet. I haven't played the games though so I can't really speak to it.

I'll probably take a break before watching the rest of the films now and go back to finishing up DS9, based on none of you recommending VII as one to watch I assume it doesn't add much and I have already seen VIII.

Final Frontier was so poor in comparison to the rest of the films, really the only down point of the series, other than the first film needing some editing.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I haven't watched ST 6 in many many years but I always remember getting goosebumps when Kirk leans forward and says "FIRE!"

You may be on to something with Dead Space. The zero gravity magnetic boots is also a Dead Space thing.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I'll probably take a break before watching the rest of the films now and go back to finishing up DS9, based on none of you recommending VII as one to watch I assume it doesn't add much and I have already seen VIII.

Taking a break is a good idea, it's all downhill after 6.

 

[lastplayed]

I also just finished up season 2 and although I didn't like her much at first (mostly because of her attitude towards Data at the beginning), she grew on me tremendously and I really grew to like her by the end, especially her moments with Worf. This is my first time watching the show - does she not appear at all after the second season?

I think she might have been mentioned, but definitely never seen again. It's a damn shame too.

 

[Cheerilee]

Just finished watching through The Undiscovered Country this morning. What an awesome way to end the run of films. Great culmination of all the events beginning with Wrath of Khan. Probably a toss up for me between Undiscovered Country or Voyage Home for my favourite movie of the six. Voyage Home completely nailed the humour for me, I don't think I have ever laughed so much while watching Star Trek.

You have good taste.

I'll probably take a break before watching the rest of the films now and go back to finishing up DS9, based on none of you recommending VII as one to watch I assume it doesn't add much and I have already seen VIII.

For Star Trek VII (Generations), they were apparently afraid to move on to TNG movies, so they cobbled-together some bad idea that ruined the ending provided by Undiscovered Country.

Star Trek VIII (First Contact) is action-movie schlock starring a cast not suited to action, that ruined the Borg (Voyager fixed them up a little).

Star Treks IX and X (Insurrection and Nemesis) are just action-movie schlock starring a cast not suited to action.

The JJ Abrams Trek movies are a superior form of schlock.

First Contact is the only TNG movie with any relevance going forward, since it means something to Voyager, so it's safe to skip the rest, but you could just watch them anyways. They're not terrible.

 

[maharg]

Insurrection is terrible.

 

[lastplayed]

Generations is worth it just to see the end of the Enterprise-D. Also it explains why Worf is able to join DS9.

 

[firehawk12]

And, no... Pulaski's gone. I don't even think they mention her again.

They name drop her a couple of times, but that's it.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Insurrection is terrible.

I think SFDebris' review does a good job examining that while I don't think it's the worst Trek film in terms of quality, it absolutely is in terms of its central theme and the whole 'insurrection' thing being nonsense. Trek always has a flirtation with the "agrarian paradise" idea, and I even like that as part of its very traditional, naval feel. But the "damn the rest of the galaxy these people who settled on this planet first are the only people with the right to the fountain of youth" argument is just stupid.

 

[Cheerilee]

I think I give Insurrection a bit of a pass because the most central crime of the TNG movies was that they tried to be big dumb action, when what they really needed was to be smart, like a good TNG two-parter or even better, and the TNG movies never once had that.

And then I read about how the writer (Michael Pillar) saw that's where the movies were going, and he tried to do something about it. He tried to bring "smart" back to TNG. But everyone from the producers to the actors beat him down with ridiculous demands that were given priority over the writing until he didn't even know or care what kind of shit was flowing from his pen.

That doesn't even remotely make it a good movie, but I don't blame it for straying from the path (and crashing into a tree). I wish it had been allowed to stray much more.

 

[brian577]

Geez, always thought everyone loved First Contact. Was I the only one who really liked it? Have I been wrong all these years?

 

[SpoonyBard]

Insurrection is terrible.

Not as terrible as V or X. It's basically a two part episode made into a movie, unfortunately a two part Voyager episode with TNG cast.

 

[firehawk12]

Geez, always thought everyone loved First Contact. Was I the only one who really liked it? Have I been wrong all these years?

I think people like it in the context of Generations being crap and it being an inoffensive action movie. It's also Moore and Braga's swansong as writing partners (at least, I don't think they would work together again on a script anyway), so even THEY feel nostalgic about it if you listen to the commentary. The "the line must be drawn here" line is also a classic of sorts. lol

But, the Borg Queen is just dumb - fair, inasmuch as you need an actual villain - but dumb anyway and the story is a bit of nonsense (if the Borg have the ability to time travel, why not just give their past selves better technology?).

I think I give Insurrection a bit of a pass because the most central crime of the TNG movies was that they tried to be big dumb action, when what they really needed was to be smart, like a good TNG two-parter or even better, and the TNG movies never once had that.

And then I read about how the writer (Michael Pillar) saw that's where the movies were going, and he tried to do something about it. He tried to bring "smart" back to TNG. But everyone from the producers to the actors beat him down with ridiculous demands that were given priority over the writing until he didn't even know or care what kind of shit was flowing from his pen.

That doesn't even remotely make it a good movie, but I don't blame it for straying from the path (and crashing into a tree). I wish it had been allowed to stray much more.

It was weird how the movie started off as a Heart of Darkness riff and then Pillar was forced to make it more action-adventurey and turned it into a Seven Samurai riff. Data going insane was supposed to be the bulk of the movie and instead it turned into the opening act.

 

[maharg]

Not as terrible as V or X. It's basically a two part episode made into a movie, unfortunately a two part Voyager episode with TNG cast.

I consider it worse than 10, personally. I actually don't really even hate 10. It's formulaic and lame, but at least it manages to be a spectacle of sorts.

And yeah, maybe Insurrection *could have been* a better movie, but if wishes were horses we'd all be in the nexus. I don't really see the point of judging something on the idea that if they'd done everything right it would have turned out better. You could say that of anything.

 

[firehawk12]

If V was a Shatner vanity project, X was a Spiner vanity project. I'm just glad Spiner never saw himself as a director, because god knows how that would have turned out.

 

[Fuchsdh]

If V was a Shatner vanity project, X was a Spiner vanity project. I'm just glad Spiner never saw himself as a director, because god knows how that would have turned out.

In terms of Spiner vanity projects "Masks" is definitely worse.

 

[firehawk12]

In terms of Spiner vanity projects "Masks" is definitely worse.

At least Masks is only 45 minutes!

(Speaking of which, I noticed that S3 was basically when the running time of episodes seemed to have dropped. Something must have happened after the strike to get more commercial time into television shows or something).

 

[DrForester]

If V was a Shatner vanity project, X was a Spiner vanity project. I'm just glad Spiner never saw himself as a director, because god knows how that would have turned out.

Eh, Spiner had apparently been wanting to get killed off for a while. They were going to do it in Insurrection and chickened out. Heck, they still chickened out in Nemesis.

 

[Fuchsdh]

At least Masks is only 45 minutes!

This is true.

(Speaking of which, I noticed that S3 was basically when the running time of episodes seemed to have dropped. Something must have happened after the strike to get more commercial time into television shows or something).

Watching TOS, I kind of feel like 50 minutes was too long in many cases--they padded out the stories. I suppose nowadays you could use that time for serialization I guess, but I think you could edit down most TOS eps a bit without bothering it.

On the other end of the spectrum, 42 minutes just doesn't seem long enough to develop a lot of stories in stuff on TV these days. I think there's a happy middle.

 

[firehawk12]

Eh, Spiner had apparently been wanting to get killed off for a while. They were going to do it in Insurrection and chickened out. Heck, they still chickened out in Nemesis.

Well, Spiner basically got to write his own death and then give himself an out in case the TNG movies continued. I suppose in terms of stupid Trek deaths, it's in between Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness in terms of its stupidity.

Watching TOS, I kind of feel like 50 minutes was too long in many cases--they padded out the stories. I suppose nowadays you could use that time for serialization I guess, but I think you could edit down most TOS eps a bit without bothering it.

On the other end of the spectrum, 42 minutes just doesn't seem long enough to develop a lot of stories in stuff on TV these days. I think there's a happy middle.

Heck, watching S1/S2 nowadays and even those episodes feel long at times. Or at least "interesting" in that they can have slower scenes with longer takes. It's certainly a throwback anyway.

 

[maharg]

This is true.


Watching TOS, I kind of feel like 50 minutes was too long in many cases--they padded out the stories. I suppose nowadays you could use that time for serialization I guess, but I think you could edit down most TOS eps a bit without bothering it.

On the other end of the spectrum, 42 minutes just doesn't seem long enough to develop a lot of stories in stuff on TV these days. I think there's a happy middle.

The difference in this case is B plots. TOS didn't really have them, TNG and later did.

 

[snaffles]

Has anyone read this Star Trek: Federation - The First 150 Years book or can speak to its quality? I saw it when I was out shopping today for $50 and was thinking of picking it up.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Has anyone read this Star Trek Federation book or can speak to its quality? I saw it when I was out shopping today for $50 and was thinking of picking it up.

Oh, man, I thought you were talking about Federation (the novel), and I was all "I remember really liking it, but fifty bucks?!?".

 

[snaffles]

Is the Defiant generally considered the worst ship design in Star Trek? I was watching more of DS9 this morning and every time I see it all I can think of is those Atari Jaguars that they made into dental equipment.

 

[lastplayed]

No? I can think of way worse ship designs. Defiant's always been one of my favs.

 

[snaffles]

No? I can think of way worse ship designs. Defiant's always been one of my favs.

Really? Well maybe it is just me I guess, it just seems so bland to me.

 

[lastplayed]

I'm sure it's not universally loved, but if it's universally hated then it's the first I've heard about it.

 

[maharg]

Is the Defiant generally considered the worst ship design in Star Trek? I was watching more of DS9 this morning and every time I see it all I can think of is those Atari Jaguars that they made into dental equipment.

People seem to like it, but I'm with you. I think it just looks like a fuglier shuttle.

 

[SpoonyBard]

People seem to like it, but I'm with you. I think it just looks like a fuglier shuttle.

Or a bigger version of a runabout... It makes me think it was not supposed to be as powerful as it ended up being. But at least it solved the problem of DS9 losing runabouts as much as Voyager lost shuttles.

 

[ThLunarian]

I just finished my Enterprise watch/rewatch. That finale was just as insulting as everyone says it is.

It starts out with such promise. The 6-year time jump to the founding of the Federation was a great, innovative idea.

Even the framing device of Riker and Troi could have worked out okay if it had stayed more in the background, and they had actually COVERED the founding of the Federation.

But nope. Half the episode is "witty" banter between two washed-up characters who weren't even acting like the originals. Most of the NX-01 plot is some cockamamie irrelevance about rescuing some random Andorian girl.

And then the most egregious offense of all: the meaningless death of Tucker.

What exactly did that death accomplish? It's like they did it just for the hell of it. They even went out of their way plot-wise to make it happen, and for what? No one even reacts to it except for one very short scene with T'Pol. After that, Tucker is never even mentioned or mourned again. It renders the hopeful "maybe we CAN have a baby" ending of the previous episode totally meaningless.

And then they completely skip over the actual speech and signing of the charter? Good grief.

What a travesty of an ending.

 

[maharg]

Or a bigger version of a runabout... It makes me think it was not supposed to be as powerful as it ended up being. But at least it solved the problem of DS9 losing runabouts as much as Voyager lost shuttles.

I actually think the runabouts were an overall improvement on the design of the shuttle, then the Defiant was a step back.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I actually think the runabouts were an overall improvement on the design of the shuttle, then the Defiant was a step back.

Yeah, I liked the runabouts, and it made sense that space stations have bigger versions of shuttles compared to starships.

 

[lastplayed]

The Enterprise had runabouts too.

Never liked the design though. They looked too blocky, and that rollbar made them look kitbashy.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The Enterprise had runabouts too.

Never liked the design though. They looked too blocky, and that rollbar made them look kitbashy.

Kitbashy is right on the nose for me. The Defiant at least looks like a coherent design (which is more than can be said for ships like the Defiant or even the Oberth.)

The Type 6 and 7 shuttles are pretty nice. As is the aeroshuttle.

 

[DrForester]

Defiant's design was what it was supposed to be. A small, compact warship. No vulnerable engineering section, or vulnerable neck to connect the hulls, no giant nacelles. It wasn't supposed to be pretty, but I don't think it was ugly.

Ugliest federation ships (Not including some of the really ugly "lets throw a few model kits together" ships from later in the franchise)...

Oberth Class:

Seriously, WTF.

Olympic Class:

At the end of "All Good Things..." it's said that Picard told his crew about the future to avoid the mistakes made. This is true, but the only thing he told them is to never design this ugly ass ship.

 

[lastplayed]

Olympic Class:

At the end of "All Good Things..." it's said that Picard told his crew about the future to avoid the mistakes made. This is true, but the only thing he told them is to never design this ugly ass ship.

Star Trek Online takes that design to new levels of ugliness:

 

[maharg]

Star Trek Online takes that design to new levels of ugliness:

Holy shit that's awful.

I think my biggest problem with the Defiant design is that it resembles a hubcap. Obviously all ships with saucer sections do to some extent, but with the Defiant it's about all there is.

 

[Walshicus]

Star Trek Online takes that design to new levels of ugliness:

Yeah, that variant is ugly... But I still like the Olympic and Hope class designs.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Star Trek Online ships just look ugly, period.

 

[Htown]

Star Trek Online ships just look ugly, period.

you can fly the vulcan cruiser, your argument is invalid

 

[Fuchsdh]

you can fly the vulcan cruiser, your argument is invalid

Sorry, I should have clarified that any ship the artists created for STO is horrible, not existing designs.

 

[Walshicus]

Sorry, I should have clarified that any ship the artists created for STO is horrible, not existing designs.

Wouldn't say that's true these days. Most of the new designs are pretty good.

 

[lastplayed]

I love how you can modify existing designs though. I quite like my super-charged Galaxy class.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

I love how you can modify existing designs though. I quite like my super-charged Galaxy class.

HNNNNG, those shots are amazing. I really need to play this game more,

 

[The Librarian]

I love how you can modify existing designs though. I quite like my super-charged Galaxy class.

Bussard collectors are too close to the impulse engines!

 

[lastplayed]

Good spotting. Not much I can do about it though, I just go with the (made up) story that it's mostly an experimental platform that really pushes the boundaries.

HNNNNG, those shots are amazing. I really need to play this game more,

Thanks! It can be very good looking game at times.

 

[Cheerilee]

Bussard collectors are too close to the impulse engines!

It's like an afterburner. The exhaust from the impulse engines goes into the warp cores, and *bawoosh* now you're 2X as fast.

 

[Gvaz]

Star Trek Online takes that design to new levels of ugliness:

Actually that looks kind of snazzy

 

[DrForester]

Looks like Ambassador Class nacelles glued onto a Galaxy Class hull...

 

[lastplayed]

It's the Galaxy saucer and hull, with the engines of this monstrosity:

And neck of this Galaxy retrofit: