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[Lumpy Onion]

Damn I love this show. The Captain Picard Day scene in Pegasus was so good. lol at the winner being a clay sculpture of Picard's head. It was nice to see Terry O'Quinn in this episode too. I think I have lost track of how many high ranking Starfleet people that I have seen in this show that make me want to punch them in the face. So many bastards. I think Ronny Cox in Chain of Command was my absolute favorite for making my blood boil though.

Almost ready to watch "All Good Things". But I think I am going to watch a few earlier gems I might have missed first. I have zero interest in the TNG movies though. Next up is DS9 and then Voyager. Hell, maybe even Enterprise if I feel the need.

 

[lastplayed]

It's kinda jarring how different the first few episodes of S3 feel compared to the end of S2.

It really felt like they were hitting their stride at the end of S2, then bam it's back to being awkward again. I guess the start of S2 had a little bit of that, but it's just weird to see when you're watching them all back-to-back.

And Dr Crusher has been useless so far. She feels so distant and vacant. If I were watching this for the first time without knowing what's to come, it'd almost feel like a downgrade from Dr Pulaski.

And those early collared new uniforms don't look good at all - the ones with the double seam down the front. I totally forgot about those.

 

[snaffles]

A fool and his money and all that...

The stand thing it comes in is complete garbage, and there is no volume control on it so the message from Sulu that it plays scared the hell out of my dogs. The book itself is pretty nice though, I really like the watercolour artwork they use for a lot of the illustrations. Also I really need to do some dusting.

 

[Fuchsdh]

And those early collared new uniforms don't look good at all - the ones with the double seam down the front. I totally forgot about those.

Still miles ahead of the old ones though. It feels so bizarre to see the extras still wearing those spandex ones later on in the series--"you don't get nice clothing unless you're an officer!"

TNG uniforms weren't as bad as the DS9/VOY uniforms though--an obsessive compulsive disorder sufferer like me's worst nightmare.

Spoiler

Why don't the damn V's on everyone's uniforms match up

 

[Henchmen21]

It's kinda jarring how different the first few episodes of S3 feel compared to the end of S2.

It really felt like they were hitting their stride at the end of S2, then bam it's back to being awkward again. I guess the start of S2 had a little bit of that, but it's just weird to see when you're watching them all back-to-back.

And Dr Crusher has been useless so far. She feels so distant and vacant. If I were watching this for the first time without knowing what's to come, it'd almost feel like a downgrade from Dr Pulaski.

And those early collared new uniforms don't look good at all - the ones with the double seam down the front. I totally forgot about those.

That's understandable considering the huge writer turnover from 2 to 3.

And yes Pulaski was better.

Still miles ahead of the old ones though. It feels so bizarre to see the extras still wearing those spandex ones later on in the series--"you don't get nice clothing unless you're an officer!"

TNG uniforms weren't as bad as the DS9/VOY uniforms though--an obsessive compulsive disorder sufferer like me's worst nightmare.

Spoiler

Why don't the damn V's on everyone's uniforms match up

Ugh...don't even get me started on the fugliness of the DS9/Voy/FC uniforms. All they did was take the cadet uniforms from "The First Duty" and add a grey undershirt. Then they turned them inside out for FC (the grey undershirt becomes the color of the shoulders and the branch colors become the undershirt).

I apparently am the only one who likes the S1/2 uniforms. Sure they could have changed them from spandex to cotton in S3 but I liked the design especially the colored stripe on the shoulders.

 

[DrForester]

I really liked the FC/late DS9 uniforms. They looked like uniforms.

 

[maharg]

ST2-6 uniforms are the best.

 

[lastplayed]

I really liked the FC/late DS9 uniforms. They looked like uniforms.

Same, although they were a bit heavy on the black. It would've been nice to see coloured tops again, like those futuristic uniforms in All Good Things.

Nice. What sort of stuff is in the book?

 

[snaffles]

Nice. What sort of stuff is in the book?

It tells the story of the events of the first 150 years of the federation. It is written from the point of view of a historian retelling the events based on interviews, letters, documents etc. It has newspaper articles, copies of treaties showing when they banned genetic engineering, when they formed an alliance with the Klingons and such. I have only really scanned through it but it seems interesting enough.

 

[DrForester]

ST2-6 uniforms are the best.

Well, yeah.

 

[Fuchsdh]

ST2-6 uniforms are the best.

It's a toss-up between those ones and the FC era. My problem with the FC uniforms is once again on DS9, everyone started having a different cut V (whereas in First Contact it went down to the bottom of the grey yoke and that was uniform for everyone). It made some characters look like their uniform never fit--Sisko's looked too big, and Bashir's looked too small. I really have no idea what they were doing with the tailoring.

You can tell later on when they reuse the ST2 uniforms how much of a difference that makes--they started cheaping out on the customing and they just look bad.

 

[DrForester]

While the ST2-6 uniforms are by far the best, I'd push the Enterprise ones as the second best. Again, they're actual uniforms, not jumpsuits.


ST2-6 > ENT > FC/Late DS9 > TOS > TNG3-7 = EarlyDS9/VOY > TNG1-2> TMP

 

[Fuchsdh]

While the ST2-6 uniforms are by far the best, I'd push the Enterprise ones as the second best. Again, they're actual uniforms, not jumpsuits.


ST2-6 > ENT > FC/Late DS9 > TOS > TNG3-7 = EarlyDS9/VOY > ST1 > TMP

You mean you don't like the pajamas?

Actually, you reminded me that one thing I will say JJ's Trek did well was the redesign of the uniforms (well, except for keeping the minis). The delta shield pattern is subtle and really nice, and the clothes feel weightier like the best Trek uniforms.

 

[ThLunarian]

I think we can all agree that fashion in the Star Trek universe, with the exception of Enterprise, is completely awful. Uniforms, civilian clothes, formal wear; it makes no difference, it's all terrible.

That's something Enterprise got right. Not only do the uniforms look like actual uniforms as said above, but everyone else's clothes look decent too. There are real suits and ties.

 

[Jackpot]

Why was everyone wearing 80s style plastic sunglasses on Earth in STID?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I think we can all agree that fashion in the Star Trek universe, with the exception of Enterprise, is completely awful. Uniforms, civilian clothes, formal wear; it makes no difference, it's all terrible.

That's something Enterprise got right. Not only do the uniforms look like actual uniforms as said above, but everyone else's clothes look decent too. There are real suits and ties.

Well, future clothes are always going to be kind of stupid. What I appreciate about Star Trek (and particularly STII-VI) is that while some of the costumes were hokey, there was little about them that screamed "THIS IS THE 1980'S BUT IN THE FUTURE" like a tremendous amount of sci-fi that was being done at the time.

I don't think insofar as men's formal fashions go we'll be departing too drastically from the current suit even in the next 300 years (look how little it's changed since the advent of real laundering and within the last 150 years superficially.) But a lot of our other fashion looks plain crappy. Aside from simple clothes in simple colors, I suspect a lot our our "modern" clothing is going to look pretty bad in the future. There's simply no way to win with costuming in that regard.

 

[The Librarian]

DS9 late uniforms were the best. They looked like actual informs, plus they were the best.

 

[DrForester]

DS9 late uniforms were the best. They looked like actual informs, plus they were the best.

They still looked like jumpsuits, but I think most of them were jackets. Which is why you see the varying "v" neck. They were better than all the other jumpsuit uniforms though.

 

[lastplayed]

Well, future clothes are always going to be kind of stupid. What I appreciate about Star Trek (and particularly STII-VI) is that while some of the costumes were hokey, there was little about them that screamed "THIS IS THE 1980'S BUT IN THE FUTURE" like a tremendous amount of sci-fi that was being done at the time.

Yeah that's what I love about Trek's uniforms, they're practically timeless. Even the old 60s uniforms look cool in a futuristic sort of way.

 

[snaffles]

Yeah that's what I love about Trek's uniforms, they're practically timeless. Even the old 60s uniforms look cool in a futuristic sort of way.

The 60's uniforms aren't very flattering on some of the more rotund members of the cast though, Trials and Tribble-ations really changed my perception of some DS9 physiques, the primarily black uniforms are much more slimming.

 

[Henchmen21]

It's a toss-up between those ones and the FC era. My problem with the FC uniforms is once again on DS9, everyone started having a different cut V (whereas in First Contact it went down to the bottom of the grey yoke and that was uniform for everyone). It made some characters look like their uniform never fit--Sisko's looked too big, and Bashir's looked too small. I really have no idea what they were doing with the tailoring.

You can tell later on when they reuse the ST2 uniforms how much of a difference that makes--they started cheaping out on the customing and they just look bad.

Well Berman notoriously cheapened out on anything that wasn't VFX. He was a studio shill after all.

While the ST2-6 uniforms are by far the best, I'd push the Enterprise ones as the second best. Again, they're actual uniforms, not jumpsuits.


ST2-6 > ENT > FC/Late DS9 > TOS > TNG3-7 = EarlyDS9/VOY > TNG1-2> TMP

But the FC ones are just so lazy. As I stated above, they're just the DS9 ones turned inside out. When they announced that we'd be getting new uniforms for FC I was expecting a huge difference like how the TMP/2-6 versions were vastly different than the TOS ones. Instead we got that.

The conceptual Generations uniforms looked nice and I would have liked to actually see them on screen.

 

[The Librarian]

They still looked like jumpsuits, but I think most of them were jackets. Which is why you see the varying "v" neck. They were better than all the other jumpsuit uniforms though.

When I were to look at DS9's uniforms, I wouldn't think "jumpsuit." The uniforms in ST2-VI look too 70's.

The 60's uniforms aren't very flattering on some of the more rotund members of the cast though, Trials and Tribble-ations really changed my perception of some DS9 physiques, the primarily black uniforms are much more slimming.

I think they also disrespected women.

 

[Henchmen21]

When I were to look at DS9's uniforms, I wouldn't think "jumpsuit." The uniforms in ST2-VI look too 70's.


I think they also disrespected women.

The 2-6 uni's were 80's not 70's

And it was the 60's. What do you expect? Women's lib wouldn't happen for another 10 years.

 

[The Librarian]

The 2-6 uni's were 80's not 70's

The pants looked like they were from the '70s to me. Just threw the whole uniform off to me.

And it was the 60's. What do you expect? Women's lib wouldn't happen for another 10 years.

That doesn't mean I can't dislike those uniforms because of that.

 

[Felix Lighter]

Man, DS9's final season is getting worse with every episode. I was really enjoying the series and the characters but the final season is too focused on the wrong characters and the wrong storylines for my tastes.

Spoiler

It's been all Vic Fontaine, Ezri Dax character building and Bajoran mysticism. My favorite characters, Julian Bashir, Miles O'Brian, Garak and Quark have been neglected as I'm nearing the final stretch and of course Jadzia Dax is gone. Sisco has gone full emissary, so I'm not loving what his character is becoming. At least Worf has been alright.

5 more episodes.

 

[Henchmen21]

The pants looked like they were from the '70s to me. Just threw the whole uniform off to me.

That doesn't mean I can't dislike those uniforms because of that.

Yeah but you have to take into account the attitudes at the time. The three major female characters were nothing more than secretaries. Uhura answered the phones while Rand was a Yeoman which is the naval equivalent of a secretary. And Chapel was a nurse. You didn't see woman in major roles until the movies i.e. Chapel becomes an MD and the Captain of the Saratoga in IV.

 

[DrForester]

Yeah but you have to take into account the attitudes at the time. The three major female characters were nothing more than secretaries. Uhura answered the phones while Rand was a Yeoman which is the naval equivalent of a secretary. And Chapel was a nurse. You didn't see woman in major roles until the movies i.e. Chapel becomes an MD and the Captain of the Saratoga in IV.

Yup. The original series was the Kirk, Spock and McCoy show. Scotty had a big presence, but Uhura, Sulu and Chekhov weren't much more than glorified extras till the movies came along.

Also, watch "The Cage" and you see Number One in a regular uniform.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Man, DS9's final season is getting worse with every episode. I was really enjoying the series and the characters but the final season is too focused on the wrong characters and the wrong storylines for my tastes.

Spoiler

It's been all Vic Fontaine, Ezri Dax character building and Bajoran mysticism. My favorite characters, Julian Bashir, Miles O'Brian, Garak and Quark have been neglected as I'm nearing the final stretch and of course Jadzia Dax is gone. Sisco has gone full emissary, so I'm not loving what his character is becoming. At least Worf has been alright.

5 more episodes.

It's the Ron Moore Effect. The closer a series gets to completion, the worse it will get and the more religious mumbo-jumbo will be involved

 

[lastplayed]

I think they also disrespected women.

I'm guessing you don't like the mirror universe versions either.

 

[The Librarian]

Man, DS9's final season is getting worse with every episode. I was really enjoying the series and the characters but the final season is too focused on the wrong characters and the wrong storylines for my tastes.

Spoiler

It's been all Vic Fontaine, Ezri Dax character building and Bajoran mysticism. My favorite characters, Julian Bashir, Miles O'Brian, Garak and Quark have been neglected as I'm nearing the final stretch and of course Jadzia Dax is gone. Sisco has gone full emissary, so I'm not loving what his character is becoming. At least Worf has been alright.

5 more episodes.

Yeah, see, I never got any of most of these complaints. Bajoran mysticism maybe, but...

Spoiler

too much Vic Fontaine and Ezri Dax? I just don't see it.

There are twenty-six episodes in DS9's seventh season. Out of those twenty-six, two are heavily focused on Vic: "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" is a fun episode – seeing the cast walk down the promenade in 60's attire is classic; the next episode is "It's Only a Paper Moon," which is a very powerful episode where Nog recovers from a lost leg (see here). I can understand the complaint about Vic showing up too much in the final season, but then again I liked Vic, so... There are three Ezri-centered episodes: "Afterimage" (also Garek-centered in a good way), "Prodigal Daughter" – I enjoyed this one if only for O'Brien's storyline, and "Field of Fire," and this one is definitely the weakest of the three. Thirteen deal with the Dominion War directly (half the season), which are the last ten episodes and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," "Once More Unto the Breach," and "The Siege of AR-558." Two are about Bashir – "Chrysalis" and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." One is about Odo – "Chimera." One is about Nog, Odo and O'Brien – "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River." Two are about Sisko: "Image in the Sand" and "Shadows and Symbols." One is about Kira, which is "Covenant." Then you have "Take Me out to the Holosuite," which is a fantastic, fun episode, and the last one is a mirror universe episode called "The Emperor's New Cloak."

Yeah but you have to take into account the attitudes at the time. The three major female characters were nothing more than secretaries. Uhura answered the phones while Rand was a Yeoman which is the naval equivalent of a secretary. And Chapel was a nurse. You didn't see woman in major roles until the movies i.e. Chapel becomes an MD and the Captain of the Saratoga in IV.

I don't like the uniforms as something serious to wear because they demean women. I don't understand the point you're making.

I'm guessing you don't like the mirror universe versions either.

I dunno. Mirror Universe is just one episode and everybody was sexed up if I recall.

It's the Ron Moore Effect. The closer a series gets to completion, the worse it will get and the more religious mumbo-jumbo will be involved

Eh. The two threads are largely separate and only intersect at one point.

 

[Henchmen21]

I don't like the uniforms as something serious to wear because they demean women. I don't understand the point you're making.

My point was that woman were treated as menial servants (and star trek was still more enlightened than it's contemporaries) and nothing more. So of course their clothing styles would conform to that.

 

[The Librarian]

My point was that woman were treated as menial servants (and star trek was still more enlightened than it's contemporaries) and nothing more. So of course their clothing styles would conform to that.

Seems to me we're going in circles. I don't like them as serious uniforms because they demean women.

 

[Felix Lighter]

Yeah, see, I never got any of most of these complaints. Bajoran mysticism maybe, but...

Spoiler

too much Vic Fontaine and Ezri Dax? I just don't see it.

There are twenty-six episodes in DS9's seventh season. Out of those twenty-six, two are heavily focused on Vic: "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" is a fun episode – seeing the cast walk down the promenade in 60's attire is classic; the next episode is "It's Only a Paper Moon," which is a very powerful episode where Nog recovers from a lost leg (see here). I can understand the complaint about Vic showing up too much in the final season, but then again I liked Vic, so... There are three Ezri-centered episodes: "Afterimage" (also Garek-centered in a good way), "Prodigal Daughter" – I enjoyed this one if only for O'Brien's storyline, and "Field of Fire," and this one is definitely the weakest of the three. Thirteen deal with the Dominion War directly (half the season), which are the last ten episodes and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," "Once More Unto the Breach," and "The Siege of AR-558." Two are about Bashir – "Chrysalis" and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." One is about Odo – "Chimera." One is about Nog, Odo and O'Brien – "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River." Two are about Sisko: "Image in the Sand" and "Shadows and Symbols." One is about Kira, which is "Covenant." Then you have "Take Me out to the Holosuite," which is a fantastic, fun episode, and the last one is a mirror universe episode called "The Emperor's New Cloak."

Well, I guess as I'm aware that the series is winding down, every episode focusing on characters and storylines I'm not as interested in become a bigger deal.

Spoiler

Also, while there is plenty of Dominion war activity, it's all happening along with the Bajoran Prophets vs Pah Wraiths stuff and Sisko's soul searching. There has been some good episodes, Take Me Out to the Holosuite was surprisingly good for baseball themed holosuite episode. Worf was hilarious in that. Chrysalis, Chimera and Treachery, Faith and the Great River were excellent. I don't dislike Ezri Dax but her character is being built at a crazy pace for obvious reasons. Vic Fontaine, I think if he was introduced earlier in the series and sprinkled in a little more lightly throughout and wasn't such a bizarrely powerful hologram, I wouldn't have minded him so much.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Well, I guess as I'm aware that the series is winding down, every episode focusing on characters and storylines I'm not as interested in become a bigger deal.

Spoiler

Also, while there is plenty of Dominion war activity, it's all happening along with the Bajoran Profit vs Pah Wraiths stuff and Sisko's soul searching. There has been some good episodes, Take Me Out to the Holosuite was surprisingly good for baseball themed holosuite episode. Worf was hilarious in that. Chrysalis, Chimera and Treachery, Faith and the Great River were excellent. I don't dislike Ezri Dax but her character is being built at a crazy pace for obvious reasons. Vic Fontaine, I think if he was introduced earlier in the series and sprinkled in a little more lightly throughout and wasn't such a bizarrely powerful hologram, I wouldn't have minded him so much.

Voyager was also guilty of not really fully dealing with the horrifying implications of holograms essentially becoming sentient (so you create and destroy people to have sex with?) but the difference was the Doctor was a much stronger character (especially later on in the run) and Picardo is a much better actor.

 

[DrForester]

The FC/late DS9 uniforms worked for me because they were jackets. Kind of like that Jacket Picard wore a few times in TNG.

And I liked that Jacket, except the first time where the shoulders were all shiny. Later ones fixed that.

 

[snaffles]

Seems to me we're going in circles. I don't like them as serious uniforms because they demean women.

I think you could make that argument of women's uniforms in most Star Trek series at least as far as certain characters go. They probably are not all as overt as the mini dresses worn in TOS though.

Just watched The Reckoning AKA There is no Kira only Zuul, I think Kai Winn is the only character on DS9 that I actively despise, just so thoroughly unlikable.

 

[lastplayed]

Never forget.

 

[The Librarian]

Well, I guess as I'm aware that the series is winding down, every episode focusing on characters and storylines I'm not as interested in become a bigger deal.

Spoiler

Also, while there is plenty of Dominion war activity, it's all happening along with the Bajoran Profit vs Pah Wraiths stuff and Sisko's soul searching.

Yeah I see that, but that's been going on throughout the entire series.

Spoiler

Vic Fontaine, I think if he was introduced earlier in the series and sprinkled in a little more lightly throughout and wasn't such a bizarrely powerful hologram, I wouldn't have minded him so much.

See, this is one of the parts I don't get. He is.

Spoiler

Up until "It's Only a Paper Moon," Vic has maybe about 12 minutes of screen-time in the span of fifteen episodes.

I think you could make that argument of women's uniforms in most Star Trek series at least as far as certain characters go.

Agreed. But then again Star Trek has a history of not treating its female characters too well. It's one of the reasons DS9 is my favorite Trek: It treats its female characters with the most respect out of all the Trek series/movies, including Abrams' films.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Never forget.

I really liked the silver catsuit compared to what she ended up wearing all the time. But the built-in heels are indefensible either way

 

[SpoonyBard]

I really liked the silver catsuit compared to what she ended up wearing all the time. But the built-in heels are indefensible either way

Then Enterprise came and 7 of 9 didn't seem all that bad any longer.

 

[snaffles]

Why were the writers of DS9 so obsessed with time travel? I just watched "Time's Orphan" which I didn't particularly care for, then the next episode "The Sound of Her Voice" they throw in a time travel plot in the last five minutes for absolutely no reason. It doesn't serve the story or character progression in the episode at all, it is just there.

Spoiler

How would it have been of any consequence if Captain Cusak had died five minutes before they arrived or 3 years earlier as they make out in the episode?

 

[DrForester]

Why were the writers of DS9 so obsessed with time travel? I just watched "Time's Orphan" which I didn't particularly care for, then the next episode "The Sound of Her Voice" they throw in a time travel plot in the last five minutes for absolutely no reason. It doesn't serve the story or character progression in the episode at all, it is just there.

Spoiler

How would it have been of any consequence if Captain Cusak had died five minutes before they arrived or 3 years earlier as they make out in the episode?

I thought DS9 handled Time Travel pretty sparingly. Crew themselves only time traveled twice I believe.

Time's Orphan was a boring episode. it was about O'Brien's family, and while he is interesting, they are not. I loved "Sound of Her Voice" Though. And the difference between 5 minutes and 3 years was that with 5 minutes, they COULD have made it. Pushed the engines a little harder. 3 years means there was never any chance that they could have saved her, which makes it more tragic.

 

[ThLunarian]

It's one of the reasons DS9 is my favorite Trek: It treats its female characters with the most respect out of all the Trek series/movies, including Abrams' films.

I thought T'Pol was a well-portrayed female character, and Hoshi seemed fine too, even if she was a little underused. Do you disagree, or do you just feel that DS9 did an even better job of it?

It's been too long since I've seen Voyager, so I won't comment on any of them.

 

[snaffles]

I thought DS9 handled Time Travel pretty sparingly. Crew themselves only time traveled twice I believe.

Time's Orphan was a boring episode. it was about O'Brien's family, and while he is interesting, they are not. I loved "Sound of Her Voice" Though. And the difference between 5 minutes and 3 years was that with 5 minutes, they COULD have made it. Pushed the engines a little harder. 3 years means there was never any chance that they could have saved her, which makes it more tragic.

To me it is just the opposite, all it does it point out that there was never anything at stake, they already did push the engines harder than they should by removing power from other systems. To me it would be more dramatic to show up knowing you have done everything you could and she still died anyway. Not show up and say, oh she was already dead years ago because time travel is caused by clouds.

 

[The Librarian]

To me it is just the opposite, all it does it point out that there was never anything at stake, they already did push the engines harder than they should by removing power from other systems. To me it would be more dramatic to show up knowing you have done everything you could and she still died anyway. Not show up and say, oh she was already dead years ago because time travel is caused by clouds.

Well, yeah, that's what happened.

 

[snaffles]

Well, yeah, that's what happened.

Exactly, so why tack on a time travel plot that does nothing but remove the stakes, that was my original question.

 

[The Librarian]

Exactly, so why tack on a time travel plot that does nothing but remove the stakes, that was my original question.

I'm not sure I'm following. There are no removal of stakes if the plot is resolved beforehand.

 

[snaffles]

I'm not sure I'm following. There are no removal of stakes if the plot is resolved beforehand.

I was arguing that for me the addition of the time travel didn't heighten the emotional impact of the Captain's death, DrForester posited the opposite. It felt superfluous to me. It removes the stakes for the viewer because you realise there was never any point of what they were doing other than retrieving a corpse from a planet. With the other scenario sans time travel she still dies, but at least you have the chance after the fact for the characters to question whether they did everything they could etc. Once again I seem to be arguing hypothetical plot points though so it is kind of silly.

 

[The Librarian]

I was arguing that for me the addition of the time travel didn't heighten the emotional impact of the Captain's death, DrForester posited the opposite. It felt superfluous to me. It removes the stakes for the viewer because you realise there was never any point of what they were doing other than retrieving a corpse from a planet. With the other scenario sans time travel she still dies, but at least you have the chance after the fact for the characters to question whether they did everything they could etc. Once again I seem to be arguing hypothetical plot points though so it is kind of silly.

I see where you're coming from especially with the bit about the superfluous part, but even under your scenario there is a never a point where they could have done anything. What's most important here, I think, is that the characters thought they were doing all they could.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I thought DS9 handled Time Travel pretty sparingly. Crew themselves only time traveled twice I believe.

Time's Orphan was a boring episode. it was about O'Brien's family, and while he is interesting, they are not. I loved "Sound of Her Voice" Though. And the difference between 5 minutes and 3 years was that with 5 minutes, they COULD have made it. Pushed the engines a little harder. 3 years means there was never any chance that they could have saved her, which makes it more tragic.

I see where you're coming from especially with the bit about the superfluous part, but even under your scenario there is a never a point where they could have done anything. What's most important here, I think, is that the characters thought they were doing all they could.

Precisely, but I agree with him that it's superfluous. Especially considering how hanky (even for time travel) the premise is, it would have been a simpler, stronger plot without it. Especially when you consider the plot holes. Are we really going to believe that at no point did any of the characters even obliquely mention or reference the current intergalactic war they were fighting in? That would of course given up the whole jig, wouldn't it, but that should have been their clue the whole twist was a Shyamalan bit of nonsense.