The Librarian
Banned
They did.
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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
They did.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
How do people go from the primary to the secondary hull? Certainly they don't scramble everyone's matter just to go to the cafeteria? Are people trapped there for the entirety of their deployment? Do they have to walk through the wingy part? How much of a pain in the ass would it be if you had to go through those Jeffries tubes during an emergency?Oberth Class:
Seriously, WTF.
After the adventures on Planet Scotland, it fits that Beverely Crusher's personal ship is a Hitachi Magic Wand.Olympic Class:
At the end of "All Good Things..." it's said that Picard told his crew about the future to avoid the mistakes made. This is true, but the only thing he told them is to never design this ugly ass ship.
And no one seems to notice how her explanation makes no sense? It seems bizarre no one bothered to so much as Google her story in a time of war.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
It was written in 1998. They would have used Yahoo. Or AltaVista. Do you remember what it was like to try to find shit on AltaVista in 1998?
The Librarian
Banned
What do you mean her explanation? It fits within the context of the story, and I don't think the Defiant would be able to tell they were talking from someone in the past until they could scan the planet's surface. As for looking her up, they were right there talking to her for most of the time. Seems weird to look up someone while they're constantly there.
At least Trek invented cellphones two decades before anyone really had them so they had to invent the "oh now Element X is scrambling our transmissions!" before everyone else
I'll let this dude sum up my issue:
Cynic said:
Once again, the "twist" is so useless and tangental to the plot this stuff starts bothering me way more. Suspension of disbelief is only in operation if the payoff is actually worth it.
Henchmen21
Banned
At least Trek invented cellphones two decades before anyone really had them so they had to invent the "oh now Element X is scrambling our transmissions!" before everyone else
I'll let this dude sum up my issue:
Once again, the "twist" is so useless and tangental to the plot this stuff starts bothering me way more. Suspension of disbelief is only in operation if the payoff is actually worth it.
Yup, even in next gen they would have caught that simply by having her state her ship name and then they would scan starfleet records for how long it would have been missing.
The Librarian
Banned
Let's no go crazy here. In all of Star Trek's episodes, each of the crews have done something stupid every now and then. DS9's is actually the most competent out of the lot. Anyway, I looked back at the DS9 Companion and it seems Moore agrees that the time travel twist was unnecessary.
Henchmen21
Banned
Oh c'mon now. Not trying to insult you here but it seems like you will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to keep from saying anything bad about DS9. You can still like a show and see it's faults you know. I love TNG but even I will say that 1st season was very poor and seasons 6/7 blew chunks.
The Librarian
Banned
How can you say I do mental gymnastics when defending DS9 when you quote a post of mine where I cite that Ron Moore, who wrote the episode, agrees that the time travel plot was unnecessary?
Henchmen21
Banned
That's what Ron Moore thinks about it though. Not what you think about it.
The Librarian
Banned
Well, if I'm doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to defend DS9, it's kind of hard to imagine why I would mention one of the writers criticizing the show, no?
The Librarian
Banned
By the way:
Yeah, you have a point. That quote got me curious and I looked at the website...that website is out of whack, yo.
Yeah, you have a point. That quote got me curious and I looked at the website...that website is out of whack, yo.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The final of DS9 really falls apart once they enter the fire caves. I hate how Sisko just goes away to become space jesus. He is most likely my favorite captain but the entire prophet secondary arc of DS9 blows chunks for me. Its distracting from the Sci Fi I started watching Star Trek for.
lastplayed
Member
There's probably turbolift access through the pylons. Looks like there'd be more than enough room.
Yeah, he's too salty by far but in between the hyperbole he raises some good points, especially about things like Voyager's missed opportunities with status quo resets and Ds9's uneven pacing and hookum.
Trek smackdown? Trek smackdown.
Glad to hear he didn't like the time travel things. Time travel can get exhausting if it's used too flippantly. We buy into flinging ourselves around the sun to go back because it leads to fun fish-out-of-water comedy and light sermonizing, not because it makes any sense. I'd probably buy into "Sound of Her Voice" more if it didn't feel like they were contriving other stuff for the characters as well and sort of pushing characters out of what we know about them to fit into the episode format.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I didn't mind the time travel gimmick in Sound of Her Voice, it made it almost like a Twilight Zone episode... you know, "SHE WAS DEAD ALL ALONG!". And it was about the only scifi element in the story, it is nice to have them every now and then...
SpoonyBard
Banned
If only the wormhole aliens would have understood linear time a bit better. The DS9 pilot episode would have been lot better, and indeed the whole DS9 would have been better without all that hippie mumbo jumbo bullshit DS9 and Voyager were full of.
THE ALIEN: You are that Sisko guy righ? We have a mission for you.
THE SISKO: Who are you, how do you know my name?
THE ALIEN: Time travelling aliens, okay? We live in this wormhole. We need you to kill a guy in a cave 7 years from now, are you okay with that? Actually we already know that you are, we have seen that already.
THE SISKO: What do I get out of this deal?
THE ALIEN: We'll destroy a massive enemy fleet that would have destroyed your space station and most of your Federation in a couple of years.
THE SISKO: Sounds good to me
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Looking up "Sound of Her Voice" got me trapped in a memory alpha/memory beta hole...
So now in the Trek universe, Ezri is in command of her own ship, DS9
, and at some point there was a massive Borg invasion that involved more than just one single Borg cube (duh).
Also, the Romulans and the Breen and several other races form their own "Federation" in order to fight against the United Federation of Planets.
Man, I'm not sure how I feel about giving up on the Star Trek novels at this point. lol
So now in the Trek universe, Ezri is in command of her own ship, DS9
was destroyed
Also, the Romulans and the Breen and several other races form their own "Federation" in order to fight against the United Federation of Planets.
Man, I'm not sure how I feel about giving up on the Star Trek novels at this point. lol
Battersea Power Station
Member
I'm towards the end of TNG season 7. There was a string of some silly stuff:
Sub Rosa -- Bah. This would fit right in with today's Twilight and Warm Bodies schlock. But I guess each actor is due a showcase once in a while and Gates got hers.
Lower Decks -- OK, cool premise, but wtf at Picard bullying the Bajoran ensign into taking on a suicide mission. "I wanted to see if you really wanted to redeem yourself and make up for your mistakes as a cadet. Good job. Incidentally, we have this extremely dangerous mission available for you." Just a shortcoming of episodic shows and having to condense character development within an episode, I guess.
Thine Old Self -- Data gonna Data. Awesome episode, as usual.
Masks -- Ha! Stewart and Spiner gettin' their theater on. I enjoyed it though. I like all the "figure out how this civilization communicates" episodes, the epitome being Darmok, of course.
Eye of the Beholder -- Interesting episode, but I usually find Troi a tough sell as the main protagonist. Also, the beginning was frustrating because before Kwan jumped, Riker could've stunned him or they could've, you know, beamed him to a safe spot.
Genesis -- weird; seems like something TOS would've done if they had the budget and make-up tech.
---------
6 or 7 episodes to go. Then I have to go back and watch some of TOS theatrical films (we've only seen the first one), maybe some of the TNG films, and FINALLY dive into DS9. Can't wait.
Sub Rosa -- Bah. This would fit right in with today's Twilight and Warm Bodies schlock. But I guess each actor is due a showcase once in a while and Gates got hers.
Lower Decks -- OK, cool premise, but wtf at Picard bullying the Bajoran ensign into taking on a suicide mission. "I wanted to see if you really wanted to redeem yourself and make up for your mistakes as a cadet. Good job. Incidentally, we have this extremely dangerous mission available for you." Just a shortcoming of episodic shows and having to condense character development within an episode, I guess.
Thine Old Self -- Data gonna Data. Awesome episode, as usual.
Masks -- Ha! Stewart and Spiner gettin' their theater on. I enjoyed it though. I like all the "figure out how this civilization communicates" episodes, the epitome being Darmok, of course.
Eye of the Beholder -- Interesting episode, but I usually find Troi a tough sell as the main protagonist. Also, the beginning was frustrating because before Kwan jumped, Riker could've stunned him or they could've, you know, beamed him to a safe spot.
Genesis -- weird; seems like something TOS would've done if they had the budget and make-up tech.
---------
6 or 7 episodes to go. Then I have to go back and watch some of TOS theatrical films (we've only seen the first one), maybe some of the TNG films, and FINALLY dive into DS9.
Can't wait.firehawk12
Subete no aware
Okay, having read more of memory beta, it seems that the previous set of ST novels basically explained the origins of the Borg. All I have to say is... god.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Okay, having read more of memory beta, it seems that the previous set of ST novels basically explained the origins of the Borg. All I have to say is... god.
If you ever want to read something that's more inane than a Star Wars novel, go for the Star Trek novels. Except maybe the ones written by Diane Duane. Those were good.
Eh, I think the Star Wars novels are worse in that they don't go anywhere in the grand scheme of things. Decades in the future, there's another Empire, another Rebellion, another Jedi purge... it's just repetitive filler. The best Trek novels have always felt like they can slide right into their respective series and feel at home. Duane, Carey, and Peter David outdo anything I've ever read in the SWEU.
GameplayWhore
Member
Yeah, even the older Trek novels, before everything got better organized, pretty much have the range of "wow, that would have made a great episode!" to "wow, that would have made ... an episode, but at least the characters were pretty on point". The earlier Star Wars novels were pretty weak, and the modern EU (the stuff started with Zahn) is on rare occasion pretty great but generally feels like a non-Starwarsy mess.
Oddly enough, Crystal Star would have probably made a decent Trek book if retooled for that universe, but it was absolute rubbish as a Star Wars book. Perhaps not coincidentally, the author was a Trek author for a really long time before making that particular mistake.
Did we pop into backwards universe or something?
GameplayWhore
Member
Why? Was the Crystal Star a great Star Wars book in your reality?
GameplayWhore
Member
Ohhhhh.
I recall the Alan Dean Foster books. Was he alone in writing in the Star Wars universe in the '70s/'80s?
edit: one of the BBSes I visited in the pre-WWW era was called "Star's End", in reference to one of said novels.
I liked Han Solo at Star's End, though I have no idea how it holds up.
http://trekmovie.com/2013/07/15/cos...rd-at-the-official-las-vegas-con-this-august/
I really don't get stuff like this. What's the real point?
I really don't get stuff like this. What's the real point?
lastplayed
Member
So after watching watching these early seasons of TNG it's quite amazing how many races and events that are never referred to again. The borders of the Federation feel a lot more wild west like, with crazy technologies that make even the Borg look primitive.
Like those terrorists who could transport through dimensions, or those kidnapping aliens who could perfectly replicate living matter, or that benevolent Q-like alien who accidentally wiped out an entire race just because he was angry, or those aliens that lived in a cloud of energy who were angry with Q...
Where were they during the Dominion War... they might have come in handy.
Like those terrorists who could transport through dimensions, or those kidnapping aliens who could perfectly replicate living matter, or that benevolent Q-like alien who accidentally wiped out an entire race just because he was angry, or those aliens that lived in a cloud of energy who were angry with Q...
Where were they during the Dominion War... they might have come in handy.
Henchmen21
Banned
That's one of my biggest complaints with Trek after Gene died. The universe suddenly seemed very small. They made a big thing about having a wormhole into another quadrant of the galaxy and what did we ever see? The Jem' Hadar and Shape Shifters (who rarely shape Shifted). The motto of "Going where no one/man has gone before" meant nothing anymore.
SpoonyBard
Banned
On the other hand DS9 had the Breen who lived just next door, and who suddenly had more powerful fleet than anyone else. Yeah, that made sense.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Yeah, I totally agree about the universe seeming small. I guess it's difficult to avoid the trope of "humans are the most important people," except in ST's case, it's "humanoids."
Since I'm relatively new to the world, does anyone have a link to a good map with the different quadrants, so I can visualize where all the aliens are and the relative distances of it all? (EDIT: OK, obviously a quick Google search helped me out. Never mind.)
After finishing TNG (man, there was some serious filler before the awesome series finale) I decided to go back to some TOS movies before DS9. We had only seen TMP so the wife and I began Wrath of Khan. We're half-way through and it's pretty good. We're highly enjoying the contrast of Picard and Kirk which we always knew was there but is suddenly illustrated very immediately to us after having watched 7 seasons of TNG straight through.
What are the other TOS movies worth seeing? I'm hesitant to run through all of them since our viewing time is pretty limited.
Since I'm relatively new to the world, does anyone have a link to a good map with the different quadrants, so I can visualize where all the aliens are and the relative distances of it all? (EDIT: OK, obviously a quick Google search helped me out. Never mind.)
After finishing TNG (man, there was some serious filler before the awesome series finale) I decided to go back to some TOS movies before DS9. We had only seen TMP so the wife and I began Wrath of Khan. We're half-way through and it's pretty good. We're highly enjoying the contrast of Picard and Kirk which we always knew was there but is suddenly illustrated very immediately to us after having watched 7 seasons of TNG straight through.
What are the other TOS movies worth seeing? I'm hesitant to run through all of them since our viewing time is pretty limited.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, the thing is that all the milky way "aliens" are all derived from the same humanoid species, which is why everyone looks the same.
I actually think all the TOS movies have some merit to them (even... 5... if you fast forward through the middle of the movie), but it's usually 2,3 (I like 3 so kill me), 4, and 6.
I actually think all the TOS movies have some merit to them (even... 5... if you fast forward through the middle of the movie), but it's usually 2,3 (I like 3 so kill me), 4, and 6.
Movies 3&4 carry on right where Wrath of Khan left off. #5 is generally considered the worst TOS movie, and is entirely skippable. #6 might be the second best Trek movie, after Wrath of Khan, but it can spoil a couple of things about 3&4 if you don't watch those first.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Yeah, and after 6 is better to wait for a while before watching 7 (Generations). 6 is such a perfect ending for TOS era that Generations may ruin it a bit.
Henchmen21
Banned
Except that was a stupid episode from season 6. We didn't need an explanation for why they looked human. It was human actors on a tv show. Besides, it didn't really get bad until the "Humans but with funny noses" brigade started to take forefront. That's what I love about Seasons 1/2 TNG. Say what you will about the writing, but they tried more to vary the look in the various alien species you saw on the show.
They did? Season 1 TNG has 'planet of the black people' and 'planet of the blonde haired blue eyed people'
Most aliens were just as much 'human with a prosthetic' as they ever were. Maybe not ALL of them, but they weren't ALL like that even in later seasons or even the later shows.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Eh, despite those episodes, earlier TNG had more energy beings and think outside the box stuff, while humanoid politics of the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians played an increasingly larger role in the later seasons. Having just finished the series, that's the definitely the impression I have. I'm not judging though. I enjoyed all of it.
I'll tell you what would be a good spin off series, or miniseries:
Show life on Earth in the Star Trek world. I'd love to see a Roddenberry sympathizer give his/her take on our world post-scarcity and post-conflict. Ok, typing that sentence out made me realize there would be no plot.
I'll tell you what would be a good spin off series, or miniseries:
Show life on Earth in the Star Trek world. I'd love to see a Roddenberry sympathizer give his/her take on our world post-scarcity and post-conflict. Ok, typing that sentence out made me realize there would be no plot.
If you guys want some podcasts to fill your time at work or whatever, there was a pretty good discussion by (primarily Mac geek) guys at 5by5 on the Abrams Trek (with a bunch of Trek and Wars fans.) Make some good points on things I hadn't even thought about, good and bad in the film.
http://5by5.tv/incomparable/143
I do think I'm on the fence about whether Into Darkness is worse than 09. I originally felt that it was, but even disregarding how shoehorned Khan was into the plot he was still a much more effective villain and the entire tone of the movie had a lot more thematic richness to it.
http://5by5.tv/incomparable/143
I do think I'm on the fence about whether Into Darkness is worse than 09. I originally felt that it was, but even disregarding how shoehorned Khan was into the plot he was still a much more effective villain and the entire tone of the movie had a lot more thematic richness to it.
Henchmen21
Banned
I didn't say they did it all the time but there were more instances of it rather than just the funny noses brigade. As much as I love season 4, that's really when it started to begin. The ratio of non funny noses to funny noses started to shift in the latter's favor starting in that season. Eventually getting to Voyager where every damn race is just funny noses.
Hey guys, so I finally started watching ST Voyager after taking a long break after finishing Enterprise, what a piece of shit. I'm at Season 6 of Voyager now and "oh boy" this show stinks hard.
I should probably mention that I think DS9 is the best Trek series out there, it really pushed the series to its limit and had just amazing writing, plus Garak. Voyager is just crap on the other hand, it's just above Enterprise but not much.
The other day I was browsing the internet trying to find out how Voyager turned out so bad and stumbled across an interview Ron Moore did shortly after quitting the show. Needless to say he rips the show apart and ever since I had a hard time going back to finishing the show. The greatest thing he said was that Voyager is a show that doesnt believe it's own premise, it wants to be Enterprise, not Voyager.
Here is this crew supposedly trapped alone in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home one a journey that could take generations. And yet, they still strictly adhere to StarFleet protocols, the ship is clean and pristine every week, the holodeck and replicators always work, there are no fuel shortages, no one ever really questions Janeway, and everyone acts like they are getting home next week.
Gah, I literally cannot rouse myself to finish the series now, every episode now is just boring and predictable. Where the fuck is my "In the Pale Moonlight," "The Siege of Ar-558," "Badda Bing, Badda Bang," "Far Beyond the Star,s" "Inner Light," type of episodes. I've watched at this point what many consider to be the "great" Voyager episodes and they cant hold a candle to any of those prior episodes.
I should probably mention that I think DS9 is the best Trek series out there, it really pushed the series to its limit and had just amazing writing, plus Garak. Voyager is just crap on the other hand, it's just above Enterprise but not much.
The other day I was browsing the internet trying to find out how Voyager turned out so bad and stumbled across an interview Ron Moore did shortly after quitting the show. Needless to say he rips the show apart and ever since I had a hard time going back to finishing the show. The greatest thing he said was that Voyager is a show that doesnt believe it's own premise, it wants to be Enterprise, not Voyager.
Here is this crew supposedly trapped alone in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home one a journey that could take generations. And yet, they still strictly adhere to StarFleet protocols, the ship is clean and pristine every week, the holodeck and replicators always work, there are no fuel shortages, no one ever really questions Janeway, and everyone acts like they are getting home next week.
Gah, I literally cannot rouse myself to finish the series now, every episode now is just boring and predictable. Where the fuck is my "In the Pale Moonlight," "The Siege of Ar-558," "Badda Bing, Badda Bang," "Far Beyond the Star,s" "Inner Light," type of episodes. I've watched at this point what many consider to be the "great" Voyager episodes and they cant hold a candle to any of those prior episodes.
While there are certainly plenty of issues with Voyager, having a clean aesthetic and adhering to Starfleet principles don't see that bizarre to me. More should have been made of how difficult that is in a world with no reinforcements and where being benevolent has a serious impact on your very survival, but there are still good episodes where it comes into play (Equinox, and "The Void" in season 7, which is definitely one of the best VOY eps in my opinion.)
Ron Moore would probably have liked to make Star Trek into BSG, and I'm happy he never really had the opportunity.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Yeah, I'd take most of the things Moore says with a grain of salt. There was lot of bad and stupid in Voyager, but there were some good episodes there like Timeless, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy, Pathfinder, Message in a Bottle, Life Line, Warhead and Virtuoso.
edit:
And I also liked Body and Soul, even though it has obvious problems if you think about it more carefully.
Well there's a class of Voyager episodes that I file in my mind under "Poor, but saved by Jeri Ryan and/or Picardo acting the hell out of it."
Battersea Power Station
Member
Sorry I'm interrupting the VOY discussion; haven't gotten up to it yet.
Something I noticed about Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. The whole KHHHAAAAANNNN thing is iconic, and all this time I thought it was an expression of this great frustration at having been outsmarted and thoroughly beaten. Having seen the Khan episode in TOS, that impression seemed to be confirmed. But having finally watched the movie, it's not as a big deal because right after that Kirk reveals that it was he who outsmarted Khan. So was he really as angry as he let on, or was it part of is bluff? I'm guessing the writers would say it was a bit of both.
Something I noticed about Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. The whole KHHHAAAAANNNN thing is iconic, and all this time I thought it was an expression of this great frustration at having been outsmarted and thoroughly beaten. Having seen the Khan episode in TOS, that impression seemed to be confirmed. But having finally watched the movie, it's not as a big deal because right after that Kirk reveals that it was he who outsmarted Khan. So was he really as angry as he let on, or was it part of is bluff? I'm guessing the writers would say it was a bit of both.
First of all BSG is AWESOME, and yes that includes the ending. Second, he's absolutely right. Voyager is supposed to be a lone ship without any reinforcement and Star Bases, yet every week it gets into a fight or trapped by some anomaly and yet every week it's pristine clean. How? It makes no sense.
Arguably the best episode I watched was the two parter "Year of Hell." You actually got to see Voyager being Voyager. The were no holodecks, the ship was constantly getting beat up, and you got to see the crew have to make tough decisions in the face of their StarFleet convictions. But then guess what, by the end of the episode everything goes back to normal and that entire year never happened. Ugh...
As far as BSG, Voyager's premise would have made it a lot like BSG had they actually embraced it. If they werent comfortable with that then they shouldnt have had the lone ship as its premise. The show clearly wants to be Enterprise, it hates its own premise and it shows. Seriously, why would people still listen to Janeway after the third or so year, why would they still adhere to the Prime Directive? There is no StarFleet, no one to keep Janeway in check, and no one to file a grievance with, and you won;t get back to Earth within your life time. Sorry, but StarFleet or no StarFleet people would start to rebel if things didnt change.